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snabbu last won the day on October 30 2016

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    Gary Yeomans
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  1. Hi Tom im on my phone so it's not the best typing. I just want to say verse one feels right more right than any other verse. I am wondering why and I have come to conclusion it's the internal rhyme in line three. Sometimes , Baby sometimes It's so hard for me to dream I want to close my eyes And simply drift away i think that is what it is that makes this work. So im thinking of edits like this Somewhere, Maybe somewhere Is it hard to take laying awake Thinking of the times we shared Wanting to drift away Globally I think it should be some some, some. So sometime somewhere somehow. The chorus is a sandwich I am wondering if the filling is right "dream together like we used too" i mean it's story telling the like we used too. I would rather there only be a reflection of the verse story in the chorus like dream together dream forever or what not. I think the form should be V V C VCBC And you can either amp up the drifting away as macnaughten suggests or you can put in there the stuff you have in verse 3 and 4 that doesn't fit the pattern of somehow or you could go for four verses and have something. basicaly you got a pattern, stick to it, and use seeming repetition to glue it all together. cheers Gary
  2. I don't mind that its all past tense because it progresses from mythical fictional characters to an actual person. And I don't think you should keep mucking about with it, you got to know when its cooked and I think its done. The only changes now should be about sing ability and correct stress. The melodic idea that struck me when I looked at this version was to use a tension and release device to highlight a lift into the chorus. If you see this rhyme here which happens in every verse. "Hammered in the coals of a fire lostShot from the age of Homeric lustThe tip of love's arrow, well it pierced my lungBut it missed my heart, I had none, it went" Now it occurred to me to try this "Hammered in the coals of a fire lostShot from the age of Homeric lustThe tip of love's arrow, well it pierced my lungBut it missed my heart" Doing an unresolved held note on the word heart as if that is the end of the verse,but hanging out there uncomfortably. Then wait, Im not sure how long maybe 4 beats, maybe two, I'd have to test it. Then deliver the rhyme "I had none", resolving the rhyme and the melody by using the tonic note on the word "None" Then "It went" is delivered as the lift. It goes up high so the melody can come back down on the word "Down to the river" Like everything else melody writing can be broken down into component parts. If you break it down it is easier to achieve a good result. An owner builder office boy can build his own house if he tackles it one step at a time. If you try to think about it all at once it becomes overwhelming. If your a naturally talented musician then you can do several things at once, if not break up the tasks and decide on each aspect and complete that. Then move onto the next. So step number one is a plan. Which is basically what I did when I set out what had occurred to me when I looked at the lyric. I will write the melody first and the colour from the chords will be added last concentrating on matching mood wise what the lyric is saying. I know I have one melody motif that runs over four lines. I am going to have four itterations of the motif, one for each line. I will have one variation, and 1 altered variation in that only the last note will be changed. It will go like this. Hammered in the coals of a fire lost ( Motif one)Shot from the age of Homeric lust (Motif one <variation1>)The tip of love's arrow, well it pierced my lung (Motif one)But it missed my heart (Motif one <variation1> altered: the last note changed, probably to a 6th 7th or 4th of the scale) There will now be either a bar or half a bar of either silence or very broken down backing to taste, to be finalised later. "I had none" (This is motif two, and the word none is to be on the tonic note so if we are writing in the key of A minor it will be A). Its stand alone from all other melody parts, its dramatic, it need to be sung with attitude therefor it's probably the three notes of the Am chord. 3rd 5th root E, F,A as it needs to go down to A so I have vocal range room to do the lift which follows. "It went" Motif three the lift. long held notes rising to an unresolved note of the scale say the seventh G, if that is too much of a leap and sounds disjointed which it might, try the 2nd or the 4th B or D. Add extra tension later with chord choice maybe if needed. Motif four is the chorus, for the sake of variation I will use a different variation pattern than in the verse where I went motif, variation, motif variation. Here I will go: Motif, motive, variation. I need to leave space for two extra unstressed notes in line two so it flows easily. I want to try and emphasise the word "down" because its like the feeling of the song. So each down will be the same note first beat of the bar and held for emphasis Down the river waters keep (motif 4)Down... to the river where it's black and deep (motif 4))Down... to the river where it's just ( motif 4) too damn cold to come home (variation) I had to put in an extra word because I can't resolve stress on the word "it's" And I have an instinct that the variation to the chorus motif might work well as an acceleration of the melody, maybe same notes but double time, except for home which will have to be on A, keep and deep can not be A, as its too final they will probably be C. It also occurs to me that I should write this part first because it would be a good point of emphasis for "down" to be a unique note. That is whatever note I choose for "down" I will use nowhere else in the song. I am also thinking about an extro (outro) That can be created by mashing up the chorus using a lead instrument solo and maybe backing vocals. This is also a place to consider putting the production hook, like a throw delay on the word "down" with the lead solo playing variations of the vocal melody. Maybe bringing in BVs as it goes on a bit. Down <down> <down> <down> (Lead solos) Down <down> <down> <down> (Lead solos) Down to the river Down <down> <down> <down> (Lead solos) Down <down> <down> <down> (Lead solos) Down to the river Down <down> <down> <down> (Lead solos) (backing vocals) Down <down> <down> <down> (Lead solos) (backing vocals) Down to the river ok so that's it a plan, you may plan differently and have different ideas, the point is the detail that makes songs work either come to some instinctively or have to be thought about and if you have to think about those details, unless you do a plan things like the unique note for "down" are just not going to happen. Listening to what you have done so far, the chorus sound is like a jolly tea party, and is totally at odds with "Down" Its light and it should be dark to my ears. Cheers Gary
  3. Just very quickly because I got stuff happening. I had a listen. I think the lyric is substantially right. The music is not what I'm hearing at all. I mean there will be lyric changes for sing ability I can see one now. The tip of love's arrow, well it pierced my lung loves arrow tip pierced my lung. I have another thought which I can't explain now. I will get back to you. Cheers Gary
  4. Hi I noted that you were having some rhythmical issues. Here is a way to check your rhythm plan it and hear it without having to sing it while your getting it right. You could of course save all this trouble by chanting your lyrics to a drum loop as you write them then you would hear the correct stress. Going on the theory that the words we would naturally stress when we speak should be the same stress in songs. And the fact that in 4/4 time the major stress is on beat one of the bar and the secondary stress is on beat three, beats 2 and 4 are weak. If you analyse each line for stress and bold them you can then know what possible rhythms for the melody are. I say possible because there is more than one solution. Below is a simple melody rhythm plan. The key: The bracketed numbers above the lines (1) are the beat of the bar the note falls on. The Bracketed number at the end of the lyric line is the syllable count for the line. The bolded syllables are the way I would stress them in speech. (1) (2) (2.5) (3) (4) (1) (2) (3) (4) Down to the riv er waters keep (4) <rest> (1) (2) (2.5) (3) (4) (1) (2) (3) (4) Down to the riv er, black and deep (4) <rest> (1) (2) (2.5) (3) (3.5) (4) (4.5) (1) (2) (3) (3.5) (4) (1,2 3) (4) Down in the riv er it’s too cold to ev er come home (5) <rest> Now if you go through and do your verses you may find discrepancies inter verse and between verses in the number of stressed syllables or where they occur. It is possible to have slight discrepancies in non stressed syllables between verses these are handled with grace notes. like in one verse there could be the word "and" in the next "but the". One verse would have a whole note say on beat 2 the next two half notes beat 2 beat 2.5. But the rhythm pattern of naturally stressed syllables should be substantially the same. Note a lyric aint a lyric unless it can be sung, it is the lyric writers responsibility to make sure that is so. You can either do it as above in silence or chant it out loud to a loop. A bunch of words no matter how cleaver and how evocative are just that if they don't have rhythmic pattern. If you end up with the stress falling unnaturally then the song just won't work. So the steps are do your stress analysis Fix any anomalies Go into your daw launch the piano roll editor. Pick a note say C Enter the whole thing as note C. only concerning yourself with the position and length of the notes. Loop it and say the the lyric Adjust the speed to feel right. Listen to what your doing does it sound right If not adjust it. There is not one solution. There are many options. For example I think in the first line it might sound better if the word "Keep" fell on the strongest beat of the bar which is (1) and I also think that Waters first syllable is more a secondary stress so that might work better on beat (3) So you might save what you did then try this and see what works best. (1) (2) (3) (4) (4.5) (1) (2) (3) (4) (1) <rest> Down to the riv er waters keep (4) This is called a back heavy setting, and now having done it I know that this is the right one for line one. Because the major and minor stresses match and it has the right body language. Setting is a device that substitutes for body language in a song. Front heavy: positive, strong, happy. Back heavy: unsure sad mysterious lonely etc. Body language and tone of voice is 70% of communication. If you pencil it in your DAW and do the two options copy paste then change the second one and play and chant them both one after the other you will hear it. You can almost put your house on the principle that if a melodist is having rhythmical problems its because the lyricist has not done his job properly. It is like trying to tile a wall that ain't been rendered smooth. Just like painting the finish is all about the prep. if the prep ain't done right its gonna look like a pack of poo tickets, no different with song writing. Cheers Gary
  5. Hi Looking at the rewrite now. I see the moon lines gone which is a shame I think, I mean its a trap to get hung up on a line at the expense of good story telling, but I think the moon thing could have fitted. I like the idea of the bridge because it reveals nothing story wise, but it does add to the mysterious dream like feel of the lyric. So its interesting because we would normally say it has to reveal something or add to the story to be a good bridge and in this case the mystery only deepens really. But it succeeds I think because it adds to the atmosphere of the lyric. And that is a bridge function I have not thought about before. There are some technical issues with the bridge. It does not take us from here to there . Which a bridge must do. Here being "Down in the river it’s too cold to ever come home" Opening line to the bridge "Drove down to the river" He's already there so he can't be driving there. as an example: "Staring across the river Saw an old man on the shore" Works with line two "Down in the river it’s too cold to ever come home Staring across the river" There is now some connection between the bridge and the last line of the chorus, it is possible to happen. At the other endow the bridge: "And he took another drink Down to the river waters keep" There is the same issue no link. These three lines need to make sense together as if they were one section and you can't change line three. "Then he threw his line back in And he took another drink Down to the river waters keep" Like "Then he threw his line back in And watched as it sank Down to the river waters keep" This line "Just a dream, just a dream" Needs a sonic connection with sank or sink to maintain the rhyme scheme. Ideas Sink "Indelible ink" "Just a dream in indelible ink" I can't get a perfect for "sank" that fits. Near rhymes that might fit "Back" "Chance" "Just a dream someway back" "Just a dream a game of chance" "Just a dream the ghost of chance" You could use "Yearning" with "sinking" "Just a dream, a yearning" "Then he threw his line back in And watched it sinking" The problem being with that is the back end of the bridge becomes AAAA instead of ABAB So that's not very elegant. Because the above is a list of ifs and buts and choices I have just done an example to show them put together in one of the possible ways. Example: (Connectivity and rhyme scheme fix.) Down to the river waters keep Down the river, black and deep Down in the river it’s too cold to ever come home Staring across the river Saw an old man on the shore Old man on the river What are you fishing for He said without turning Just a dream, the ghost of chance Then he threw his line back in And watched it as it sank Down to the river waters keep Down the river, black and deep Down in the river it’s too cold to ever come home I must say for some reason because it is so cryptic I do like "Indelible ink", "a dream in indelible ink" with "and watched it softly sink" or something. Anyway have a think about those things. But the image and the content of the bridge is spot on for the verses it reinforces them. Cheers Gary
  6. Hi Isn't it then simply a matter of laundry listing what goes with the moon theme I mean as a " Love as " thing the moon is right up top there, so you just have to brainstorm how it is that the moon can not touch this heart. So it's to do with being out of the moonlight in the shadows , in the dark of the river's keep. If you did this you are just talking about the moon as a symbol of romance so that is in keeping. "Well the moon fell over, and the sky went numb He longed for my heart, but I had none, it went" So in the first two lines you have love and silver light as the moon metaphor for love. Must be doable, I would think. Cheers Gary
  7. Hi just breif cause I'm on a crook connection. i feel the "down to the river" thing has been done to death. So the only thing that saves the chorus idea for me is it ain't a river, I know it keeps saying it is but the river is not a river as such it a Keep. As Paul once said about locking up ones feelings "a fortress deep and mighty" so the river being a mataphor for a dark damp cold "Keep" a tower in some Fortress is a fresh approach, in the "down to the river" stakes. If i talk to the story structure verses 2 & 3 make sense as they are aspects of traditional views of love in one the arrow in another the huntress, verse one is about people, I think it needs to be another classic view of love. As an aside if we discus this approach and homer gets a mention in verse 2 should it not be Diana's owl in the hunting one or if that's not the correct goddess whoever it is cause I'm doing this on my phone with one finger and if I go check, this crit will probably vanish. The main issue is at this stage we need another " love as" we got as a hunter we got as arrows, we need a third classic to be verse one. And it needs to be something that would fritz a normal heart but can not harm your heart cause it is safe locked up in a keep. So if it's a lighting bolt Thor gets a gig or whatever, but it needs continuity at grass roots, before fiddling at whether your actually saying it the best you could. like two stage thing. Then having done that you need a good good excuse for telling the story like that. That,s actually you hiding under the bridge, with your heart in the Keep. So tom said it needed a bridge and I agree. And in said bridge admit it's you not a bunch of myths in the verses and reveal what it was that caused you to lock your heart away. Then you have a song idea that is complete, cohesive, focussed, with a beginning middle and an end. I do like a river being a keep as they are just so totally unrelated yet both can be cold dark and wet. And that's class metaphor to me. Cheers Gary
  8. Hi i have crap net in Bali so il make this short in case it goes nowhere. In the new version which seems good to go to me except the split statement is still there " a molten stream glides down the slant of the anvil close to his hands calloused sweaty ashen palms he overflows the mold" if you do molten stream down anvils slant Searing hot glides close to his hands it fixes the split issue, it's a bit poet speak but I think given the subject matter it is ok prosody wise. Cheers Gary
  9. Hi Tom I am looking at the first one which I like best. First the corn issue. For me the story is about the love cloud nine before you find out the chick snores or whatever. At that stage we do rediculous things, the corn content of this fits with that story perfectly. The only thing I thought is what Peggy said and that statement in the bridge is out of context / character with the rest of the song. the question in the chorus isn't an issue because it's rhetorical. So for me it's fine just fix that bridge thing. Cheers Gary
  10. lyrics

    Hi i like Tom can't get it to sing in my head I am adding to it to get it to flow. With the stress right. I'm adding two syllables to lines one and three, lines two and four as is. The chorus has a tense issue to make it rhyme I guess. When it should be "when the snow fell and the choir sang" i don't quite know what to do about that. Its I nice story and it's not over egged. The only story thing is there is nothing about fear, I guess it's being told in retrospect so that may be OK cheers Gary
  11. Hi Gary This is basically all quite stable, I think that the subtext of this is about yearning, and that is an unstable emotion. I am away at the moment, but i must have written about what makes stable and unstable and why about at least ten times. I don't know how you search for that on here, but there must be a way. I thought that the chorus should be destabilised so that it created that yearning feeling. I have looked at it and I can't see a way to do that, and keep the quality of the chorus in tact. The verses are a lot easier choice. I know that face that's coming my way Haven't seen you since that summers end Your looking pretty good I'd like to stop and talk some with you Hear your voice again and how you've been But it's really no big thing That's unstable it has an uneven number of lines, uneven line lengths, and no rhymes The overall concept is that everything is either stable or unstable to a degree. So your stability or instability in your structure should match the feel required for your content. This is prosody, The instability in the verse example I have given you, is too much instability for the story, so it needs toning down a bit, this is a subjective decision. So I would then go in a put internal rhymes in line two to adjust the feel to a bit less unstable. Something like this "I know that face that's coming my way Haven't seen you since when? that summers end Your looking pretty good" Then I'd melodise it and test out if the feel was right for the story because it may need adjusting further. It's a feeling of regret and pretending not to care that we are after not totally unstable misery. The instability in the verses sets up the less unstable chorus where you keeping a stiff upper lip. The reason the chorus could not be destabilised further is because it is already ever so slightly unstable which is exactly what the words are saying. Its hurting but i will pretend its not. So the only unstable element is the five lines which repeats the hook. And if you look at it its a very good chorus so you wouldn't want to change that at all. Hope that helps Cheers Gary  
  12. Hi Peggy The story flow is good. There is the odd word I might change here and there but its stuff I'd leave till I was singing it so I could hear how the words sat together. My major concern is I think that with all the perfect rhymes and the AA structure it is going to get melodically repetitive. If that happened and it were me which it isn't, I would write two melodies and do it 4 lines 3 lines 4 lines 3 lines like this. As we looked out on the road aheadAs we looked out on the road aheadThe distance left to go, was nothing we could knowAnd we reached for the words that had been unsaidWhere you going to, you're all aloneIf I could go with you, we'd make a love that grewAnd we'd fill all the rooms in a happy home This will add some variation in tension as well. Cheers Gary
  13. Hi I like the structure with the repeated refrains, that is gluing it together. It really feels like it should be "Uriah Heep" in musical treatment, heavy melodic rock. I have a couple of points where I think there are song writing issues. This is a split statement "a molten stream glides down the slantof the anvil close to his hands" So that needs an edit a molten stream glides down anvils slant or whatever to make the statements complete in them selves. This sounds like a forced rhyme "and now a stiff breeze sits him downwhispers a truth despite his frown" The reason I think is in all the other verses the rhyme is vowel only, and the fact this is perfect makes it feel out of context. I am not familiar with the story but i am wondering if you can use something like "doubts" instead of frown to tone down the rhyme. Cheers Gary
  14. Hi John I am concerned about all the split statements. Its makes it like this Excited and scared as hell out here in the big old world I'm just a small town girl looking for her dream a guitar and my songbook that's almost all I took when I set off to look for my own dream two years down the line I chased but can't find that ilusive dream of mine what can this mean Which is unbalanced. Cheers Gary
  15. Hi Dek I deliberately had a very linear sort of non melodic tune because I thought I didn't want it to interfere with the words. I don't think there is anything wrong with the stress, I don't hear any who horning or gabbling. I just think there is a lack of prosody. There may be an issue with the way I've written the lyric, as its written stable, that was a decision to make it sound like a statement of fact. That may create an issue with getting the feeling of any tune right. And even if this tune were fro another subject one more suited to the flavour the back end of to is not right because it should have gone more melodic at the back. The prosody is wrong, and it may be that the lyric structure may need to alter to fix that in the melody writing. I won't know until I try to haunt it up a bit. If thats the case I will change the lyric structure. But I won't know until I hear it. All it has proved is the current lyric structure flows ok. Cheers Gary