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Songwriting Collaboration For Lyricists

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Nashcash    16

The fresh idea is most important

Spelling can be corrected

I fresh idea is like thunder

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Shesalady    0

I am a lyricist and I am looking for a person to write music. My cowriting partner and I write a mixture of Genres.

We are published writers.

Jo Ann

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CassieP    84

I am a lyricist and I am looking for a person to write music. My cowriting partner and I write a mixture of Genres.

We are published writers.

Jo Ann

Jo Ann, you should start a new topic in the Songwriting and recording collaboration area. You would get more hits and traffic. This thread was just discussing collaboration in general.

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arteg    7

Whether you are seeking to write a song to serenade a loved one, to vent your emotional turmoil or hoping to make it to the hit charts, it is important to know what goes into creative songwriting.

 

Basically, it is just two parts – music and lyrics. It sounds easy enough for one person to do both, but in reality, most of the greatest hits we know of were penned by two people.

 

One writes the music (pens the notes, progressions, rises and falls) while the other writes the words to the catchy hook, the chorus, and even the bridge. An example of this excellent teamwork is the 40-year working relationship of Elton John and Bernie Taupin. Elton writes the music, Bernie writes the lyrics and they are responsible for Skyline Pigeon and Your Song. 

Edited by arteg

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Ray888    176

Hi, I’m writing music, and would like to collaborate with those who wrote lyrics to the music . Who are interested can send a demo . thank you

http://m.youtube.com/channel/UCEtt3lwmh4eKif3uYyfbJzQ

Hi, I can only find cover songs that you have sung on and one remix that you have sung on. Have you written any original songs that I can listen to?

 

I am a seasoned lyricist that has written for well known artists and collaborated with many eminent producers including Grammy award winners..

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ames1212    174

I have found a few very talented partners to collab with on here. I get stuck when it is time to take it to a producer and get it radio ready, because of the cost. The colaborations have helped me to grow as a lyric writer, learning more about how things fit to music. Have won a song contest with one of my lyrics, so I feel this site has helped me grow. I am still looking for people to work with to make my songs come alive, and have sent out several songs to different people. I loved all the advice and critques that have helped me to grow on this site.

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tomcollins    529

A songwriting collaboration is not set in stone and the boundaries are shiftable according to the co-write situation.

 

If you start a co-write from scratch it is always a sensible idea to have a written song split agreement although it's dificult unless you have formulated a title for the song. You can put "Song title to be decided" but it doesn't really mean anything.

 

However if one party has already composed the music/Melody or lyric it's a whole different situation.

 

Example: Suppose you have written a lyric and find a composer to compose the music/melody and you sign a song split agreement.

 

If it turns out that you are unhappy with the composers work, then you have legally bound yourself to the song as one entity, 

 

I work with about a dozen songwriters on a regular basis and this is how we work. I just thought that I would throw in my experience so that it gives individuals another facet to think about.

 

The same applies if the composer is unhappy with the lyric.

 

The majority of my split-sheet agreements are signed when both or all parties are happy with each individuals work because I either have already crafted the lyric or my composer has already composed the music/melody and I craft a lyric to it..  

disagree with the part that you are bound if you dont like the music of  a melody writer or composer , for the fact the lyrics are yours, let someone else put music to it, yea he or she could pitch your stuff , and you have rights to that , but you can always take your lyric to another to put a melody to it. 

For me , the biggest thing with lyrics or writing them , is you have to make chages ,well most times, when the melody or music gets put to it . This at times has the lyricist a wee bit upset . The fact of the matter you shouldnt be, if it's for the best of the song . I work with a bunch of people , write or play or set melodies , and this is the biggest thing , or a lyricist will ask for music and say its"rock " and when you set a melody , most times it is a 1+1 , and it comes off sounding a bit like pop, hard for two people to hear the same melody , so unless the lyricist knows a bit about music it tends to be hard for them , because it is hard to express what sound they really want ,

As you progress you will learn more and hell maybe even learn to play a bit to get your thoughts out there, but untill that point , you have to keep an open mind , have fun , and enjoy the process , truth be told there are millions of lyricist out there , and most will never get music to their lyrics, either because they dont persue it , or give up because they cant express what sound they exactly want ,

So I would say work with many melody writers and see who fits , but remember , there will be changes made during the whole process most of the times( as with the music , rare to hit it on one shot ) our lyrics are personal , but need to let it go a bit for the better of the song , but most of all have fun !!

rock on !!

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Ray888    176

Well Tom, You may well disagree but I can tell you for certain that in the united states, once you have entered into a song co-writing agreement verbally or in email you are bound in law to carry it through regardless of not liking what the co-writer does with it. The law is different in the UK and it is possible to back out of the deal providing that no split-sheet has been signed.

 

I am a director of a record label here in the UK and it's my job to familiarise myself with laws that can effect my artists and co-writes.

 

I do agree with you on the point of not being over precious lyrically and that a song is always a work in progress until it is complete.

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HoboSage    1,997

For U.S. Collaborations:  Here are a few ideas you may want to consider.

 

If you've already written words that could be your contribution to a song using those words, then before you embark upon any such project with a musician, in addition to having your agreement with the musician memorialized in writing, register your original words as an unpublished non-dramatic literary work with the U.S Copyright Office to evidence your intent that you wrote them as a original work of authorship distinct and separate from anything else.  Then, you can forcefully argue that the later-made song is a "collective work" and derivative of your previous literary work, and is not a joint work of authorship because, as defined by the U.S. Copyright Act, that requires both authors intend to merge their contributions into a unitary whole when they create their contributions, and that would mean you have the right to make other derivative works using those same words.  And, don't title your agreement as a "collaboration agreement."  Call it a "collective work agreement."   :)

Edited by HoboSage

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Ray888    176

Your link seems to be appropriate for a single songwriter unless I've missed something?

 

I was referring to a situation where a composer or lyricist enters into an agreement either verbally or in writing to co write with someone.

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Ray888    176

For U.S. Collaborations:  Here are a few ideas you may want to consider.

 

If you've already written words that could be your contribution to a song using those words, then before you embark upon any such project with a musician, in addition to having your agreement with the musician memorialized in writing, register your original words as an unpublished non-dramatic literary work with the U.S Copyright Office to evidence your intent that you wrote them as a original work of authorship distinct and separate from anything else.  Then, you can forcefully argue that the later-made song is a "collective work" and derivative of your previous literary work, and is not a joint work of authorship because, as defined by the U.S. Copyright Act, that requires both authors intend to merge their contributions into a unitary whole when they create their contributions, and that would mean you have the right to make other derivative works using those same words.  And, don't title your agreement as a "collaboration agreement."  Call it a "collective work agreement."   :)

I would be interested to check out a link to this if you have one?

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HoboSage    1,997
Ray888    176

@ Hobosage -

 

Thanks for the links.

 

My apologies if I didn't make it clear.enough from the beginning.

 

I do copyright all my lyrics before they are sent out to any of my co writers so your links are not necessary.

 

The point that I am interested in is that if I ask a composer to formulate an arrangement and melody to my lyric, you indicated that I could pull out of the deal if I didn't like the music and melody.

 

What I was asking for (and maybe I should have been a bit clearer) is a link to a court case where a person contested and won the right to withdraw from the agreement.

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tomcollins    529

Hobo May have that , but if you write the lyric, have someone elsedo the melody ,and you don't like what he or she has done,take it to another. I did something for a staff member here,had a few others do melodies to her lyric she picked one, no harm, as long as you dont use that melody. Lyrics are yours, you enter into a contract as stated byhibo ,you. Dont like the music or hell if you just don't like the person after a month,take your lyric to another,melody sheet music whatever just let them have it and split ways,but theycant use your lyric

Rock on

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tomcollins    529

If its two writers on thelyrics ,could still do the same thing ,they could take lyrics eles where,think with co writes its a bit tougher byt as long as bith agree and band together to get the sound they like, they collectively could persye as many melody writers as they want , a lot of bands went through this , believe sir paul is one ,could be wrong though,

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Ray888    176

It's not that I cant be bothered to go through your many links, it's just that I have a horrendous workload and don't have the time to troll through half a dozen links and their pages. One link would have surficed with perhaps a pointer to which paragraphs are relevant to my question. However, thanks for your imput.

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Ray888    176

If its two writers on thelyrics ,could still do the same thing ,they could take lyrics eles where,think with co writes its a bit tougher byt as long as bith agree and band together to get the sound they like, they collectively could persye as many melody writers as they want , a lot of bands went through this , believe sir paul is one ,could be wrong though,

Thanks for your input Tom, it conflicts with some of the stuff that I have read up on but I will need to check further into it to make certain that I am on solid ground. It seems to be a minefield so I'll be doing some research as soon as I get a break from my current schedule.

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Hi everybody!

I've had the experience of working with a musician that needed, at first his lyrics corrected (in English)....when it became quite difficult since it seemed to have been translated using google I offered him to take his initial idea or the original lyric in Spanish and work around the melody he had created in order to give them a little harmony and sense. It turned out to be quite difficult when he did not understand that in order to maintain the meaning of the words the melody needed to be stretched a little. Or when I tried to explain that a singer needs to breathe to pronounce the words. Eventually I gave it up. 
On the other hand, since I compose using my voice and can't play any instrument, I've always looked for a musician (actually I've always wanted to have a metal band) to help me put music to the lyrics and melodies I compose. I haven't had any luck with that. At least with the musicians I've ran into they find it easier, hence they prefer, to have the singer put voice and lyrics to what they play rather than the other way around.

I must admit that, even tho I am no help what so ever when it comes to the musical composition part (for my lack of knowledge of music theory), I tend to be a perfectionist and I must be difficult to work with. I just have this dream of telling stories through the songs and for me the music needs to contribute to build an atmosphere around the meaning of the lyric.

 

 

Edited by Lady Moebius

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Summer Days    13

I've written lyrics for years. Different genre's, I've come to the conclusion if you don't play an instrument nor sing, you're pretty much wasting your time as a lyric writer only. I have the drive and everytime I'm ready to give up, It seems I can't. I'll be comfortable in bed and I hear the music and lyrics, as a completed song, until I get out of bed and write it down. I don't see how I can pitch my lyrics till I learn to sing, so I'm taking singing lessons, sometimes I just feel it's so far down the road, I just need to stop all this, and try concentrating on something else in life. I refuse to be a dreamer, if I can't make something happen soon, I need to move on. I've had numerous people online and in person love my work, we've actually even wrote together, then they disappear, so for me collaboration is a scary thing to try again, but I know if I don't, my lyrics will never be heard. 

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robash    3

Summer Days: I think that might've been a Van Halen song with Sammy at the wheel, I'm sure you didn't need to hear that, no offense intended. I just read what you wrote, and understand where you're coming from. I understand the frustration and the dreamer thing as well. I play a little bit, but can't play what I hear in my head. When I write my lyrics, I know how they're supposed to be sung, so I guess you could say I'm writing them with a melody in mind. If you keep poking around long enough, something will eventually fall into place, never rule out the 3 chords and the truth approach. Even if you're non musical, you can teach yourself 3 chords from a guitar or piano, and then just sing it the way you hear it. It may not work for getting a publisher, but it could for getting someone to play it. Most musicians have good imaginations, so one could probably get the vibe of what you're trying to convey. There's a fellow I think goes by Zwann, he did a scaled down acoustic version Of Iron Maiden's "Number of the Beast", check it out sometime, that's kind of what I mean about 3 chords and the truth. Just thought I would mention it, I hate to see someone give up, If it makes you feel any better, I published my songs in ebooks  with Kindle, they may not get heard, but maybe someone will read them. Then I got perturbed and wrote one, which is about the word that gets written and never read or heard, I understand your frustration, channel it in to your writing. I'm not sure, I'm new here, but I think you're on the right site for the collaboration that you're after. I've been cruising around this site this morning, and liking what I see. I even got a peek into this sites future goals, and was impressed, ever hear of Hill song? it may be Hill song United, any way check them out, look up the song Oceans (where feet may fail) it's on youtube. What makes them unique is they are a church youth ministry making their own music and recording it, and acting as their own label, and the whole 9 yards. To me that's what you do if you really want to make it in today's music industry. I'm pretty certain I read that somewhere this morning, that those are the goals of Songstuff . My little book thing allowed me publishing for now, anyway you get the message, I think you're in the right spot. Throw your flag up and see if you find a musician to work with, I got so wrapped up in the book stuff I forgot I was writing songs, I'm getting ready to start pitching them again. Didn't mean to write a book here, but I hope it got your attention! Raise your flag, and write on!   Thank You R.A 

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Summer Days    13
On 3/1/2008 at 1:46 PM, Steve said:

I've had several collabs with lyric writers. (here) It can be quite rewarding to put someones lyrics to music but as a musician, the biggest drawback I see, is most lyric writers are aiming to hear their songs played on the radio! In my case, I don't think that's ever gonna happen. It's also not gonna happen for lots of other composers. The difference between a lyric and the music, is the lyric doesn't need to be performed! I'm not the best musician in the world, and I don't have the best equipment or skill for recording, so the songs I have collaborated on will never be commercially accaptable. If I ever see that a lyricist wants some music written, I am instantly put off by the words 'Radio' and 'Commercial'. I'm just never gonna get there! I have music and melodies that I can't write lyrics for, but they'll stay with me for now. I also read some lyrics that I can 'hear', but again, I am nervous about offering help because of the above mentioned reason. I guess it comes down to a reality check.We would all like to have commercial succes! I don't imagine there is one lyric writer here that wouldn't love to team up with the perfect composer to form the next Taupin - John song writing partnership! (And I would encourage that from everybody here!) But I would suggest from potential lyrical collaborators to set their sights on getting a song written as a song, and not as a commercial proposition! If it's a good song, then who knows what might happen?

 

:) Anybody else had any luck with collaborations?

That's my goal to hear it recorded, since I haven't even gotten that far, it's very disappointing. As you stated who knows what can happen afterwards. As of right now I just wish I could find a honest and serious collaboration with someone who could help me accomplish getting a demo. I've worked with others over the years, they weren't even serious enough to work on the lyrics they ask me for, others I had met through facebook loved my work or said they did wanted a couple different lyrics but then disappeared and refuse to reply to my calls and texts, then another guy still continues to contact me and ask for more and claims one day he will make a demo, I've had bad experiences so far, but I know somewhere there has to be an honest Co-writer.

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Ray888    176
On 2008-2-19 at 0:59 AM, Carnival said:

I am starting this topic at Nightwolf's suggestion. I suggest pinning the topic in the Lyric Forum.

 

If you write lyrics, but you don't compose music, you need a collaboration partner. But if you aren't already involved in the music scene or don't know any songwriters, it can be a little intimidating to know how to find a potential partner and begin a collaboration.

 

This topic is for both lyricists and musicians to share their experiences and provide their own advice on collaboration issues, to provide guidance for new lyricists on how to proceed and what to expect, and also to make suggestions to resolve issues that may arise between collaboration partners, and how to build and maintain smooth relationships.

 

I'll post the first comment and give you my own experience and views.

I am a lyricist who has collaborated with musicians, Artists and producers for more years than I can remember. The only advice I can give to novice writers who are looking to co-write with musicians is to post your lyrics and be open to feedback so that you can improve your craft. Write good opening lines, hook-lines, and endings and you are halfway there. Don't expect to work with seasoned players until you have received feedback from professionals who affirm that your work is on the mark. When I first began to write I would work with anyone who would give me the chance. It is a very tough business so be prepared to navigate and persevere through many hurdles. Good luck and try to enjoy a never ending journey because even old hands like me are learning something new everyday.

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Ray888    176
On 2008-3-4 at 2:01 PM, McnaughtonPark said:

Spelling and grammar are important, there is no doubt. Look, you don't build bleachers with termite ridden boards, or bridges with rusted bolt threads. This is just a song in comparison, and not life or death, but when seeking the help and guidance of others one should try to do their best. I've been guilty of it, I know most are at some point but it's immature to think that it shouldn't matter. Plus, why throw away a good critique on spelling errors.

 

Spell check isn't the end all, and some may rely on it too much, or is that to much, or two much, or 2 much. There needs to be some polite correcting going on and a little leeway given as not everyone who has the need to express themselves is perfect. Some genres may be more influenced by poor grammar than others, and a person could present an authentic lyric with errors that come from his or her natural style.

 

In attempting to be politically correct I fear I've been too vague. Some people don't' have the education and can only go so far. The lyric should first be judged by meaning, if we can, then suggestions toward spelling and grammar. I know what you are saying, that the meaning may depend on first being able to read it to understand, but there are times, especially when the errors are so obvious, that a person has posted their best effort.

 

It's not our job to teach spelling and grammar, but there are those who may need honest help. Helping to expand their craft, through the basics with a little patience and understanding. On a personal note, I often write the second letter of a word first, and have to add the first letter in second. It slows me down, and frustrates me because I can't just keep writing. I also write the twice and and twice and some other short words in the middle of sentences. Point is, we don't know how much correcting and effort has been put into a lyric before it was posted and what an author goes through just to post something he or she feels is worthy of being read.

 

To offer anything for collaboration without giving it your best effort is disrespectful, just give it your best, honest effort and be open to corrections and the critique of others.

Spelling and grammar surely are an asset but you don't need it to be able to write a great song. Rap is a prime example where many are not educated very well and their language is urban or slang. How many mainstream songs have we heard with the word "Na", "Gal", etc which aren't exactly good grammar. If someone sends me a lyric, grammar is the last thing I take any notice of.

Edited by Ray Fry
Mistake

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Ray888    176
On 2017-4-21 at 5:23 PM, Summer Days said:

I've written lyrics for years. Different genre's, I've come to the conclusion if you don't play an instrument nor sing, you're pretty much wasting your time as a lyric writer only. I have the drive and everytime I'm ready to give up, It seems I can't. I'll be comfortable in bed and I hear the music and lyrics, as a completed song, until I get out of bed and write it down. I don't see how I can pitch my lyrics till I learn to sing, so I'm taking singing lessons, sometimes I just feel it's so far down the road, I just need to stop all this, and try concentrating on something else in life. I refuse to be a dreamer, if I can't make something happen soon, I need to move on. I've had numerous people online and in person love my work, we've actually even wrote together, then they disappear, so for me collaboration is a scary thing to try again, but I know if I don't, my lyrics will never be heard. 

Never think that because you don't play an instrument that you cant co-write with musicians. If your lyrics are good they will want to work with you. I am a lyricist and the only instrument that I can play personally is my voice and I receive a minimum of 50 requests per week to work with artists, composers, and producers. Admittedly it has taken a long time to get to that stage so perseverance is a key factor in being successful.

Don't expect that every lyric you craft will be great so post them on as many sites as possible and constantly try to improve your skills and the way that you write. It's a journey so try to enjoy the ride without expectations because they will almost always fall short of what you desire.

Don't give up on your dreams.

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Ray888    176
On 2008-4-17 at 8:19 PM, Steve said:

I think it's ok to ask for help in this way. If you need a singer to sing a song, then just ask away! I'm sure there was somebody here recently offering their skills as a singer to anybody that might want him! if the recorded song becomes a saleable item, you would need to work out some royalty payments, but you don't need to offer writing recognition.

Just to clarify a point Steve, A song and it copyright is made up primarily of Lyric and melody with arrangement, mixing and mastering as separate items. It means that if the singer improves on the melody they have been given and which often happens, they should be credited for their work other than just for vocals. 

Edited by Ray Fry
Entered wrong persons name.

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Ray888    176
On 2017-4-21 at 8:26 PM, Summer Days said:

That's my goal to hear it recorded, since I haven't even gotten that far, it's very disappointing. As you stated who knows what can happen afterwards. As of right now I just wish I could find a honest and serious collaboration with someone who could help me accomplish getting a demo. I've worked with others over the years, they weren't even serious enough to work on the lyrics they ask me for, others I had met through facebook loved my work or said they did wanted a couple different lyrics but then disappeared and refuse to reply to my calls and texts, then another guy still continues to contact me and ask for more and claims one day he will make a demo, I've had bad experiences so far, but I know somewhere there has to be an honest Co-writer.

Steve, Just because you believe that you aren't the best player or recording engineer or singer doesn't necessarily mean that your resulting collabs will never end up on radio stations. A great song is a great song and even if you can only produce half a decent Demo to pitch to producers that have singers on their books you are in with a chance. The other thing to bear in mind is to make sure to ask them if it would be OK to send a song to them and make sure that the song is good before sending it. If you don't contact them first and send it, it will be ignored and sent to the waste bin. It's all about building relationships.

 

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