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Hi guys,

 

I couldn't find a place in the forum that looked like a great fit for this question, so hopefully I did a good enough job with "Songwriting Reference."

 

I have what is probably a pretty stupid question, but I've had trouble tracking down the answer... My question is, when going from, say, a "I" chord to a "V" chord (let's assume I'm in the key of C, so from "C-chord" to "G-chord") on a piano, am I supposed to be going down the keyboard, up the keyboard, does it just depend on my own preference for the song, or am I just missing the boat somewhere else in even asking this question?

 

To elaborate, from some basic piano training (it wasn't focused on songwriting, but just on learning piano, which typically meant memorizing how to play classical songs, etc), I had come under the assumption that in going from a "I" chord to a "V" chord, I should really just be playing what I now know are the inverted forms of the chords in my progression to minimize / make easier the movement of my hand(s).

 

For example, in going from a "I" chord to a "V" chord (C-chord to G-chord), I had assumed I should just be playing "C-E-G" for the "I", then transition to the inverted "V" (V^6, "five-six"), or "B-D-G", because that would greatly minimize the motion required for my hand.

 

But, just recently, I was reading through a good book I found on music theory that really gets into what I'll call "songwriting theory", and it seemed to be stating that there is a HUGE difference between playing "I" --> "V", verus playing "I" --> "V^6"... not that you would never play "I" --> "V^6", but it seemed that it was pretty atypical vs. most songs out there (i.e. on the radio).

 

Thus (assuming what I said above is generally right and makes sense), you can see the predicament I'm in, and hence, the stupid question: If I am indeed supposed to [generally] be going from "I" --> "V" instead of --> "V^6", do I go UP the keyboard (i.e. same octave) from the C-chord to the G-chord or DOWN the keyboard (down an octave) from the C-chord to the G-chord? As I said, I had previously assumed (I think, incorrectly) that the answer to this question was "stay in the same place", and just invert the next chord (and the chord after that, etc) to minimize hand movement required from one chord to the next.

 

Any help from any of you music theory / piano / "songwriting theory" experts out there would be GREATLY appreciated!

 

Thanks,

Dan

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Hi Dan,

 

From C to G (Like from D to A or any transposition):

 

It doesn’t matter which way you go. Above middle C,  below it or a mixture of both.

 

Hobo Sage is right. You are in control. You know a chord comprises the Root + 3rd + 5th. So play the chord any way it sounds best to you.  Use one or both hands at any octave or octave combination.

 

or "B-D-G", because that would greatly minimize the motion required for my hand

To me this means

: if your C chord is middle C and the E & G above that, when changing you might keep the same G and play the B & D either side of middle C. yes it does minimise hand movement.

 

To me minimal hand movement comes 2nd only to what sounds best. What sounds best? It depends on the music, and the music depends on you.

 

Twice you say “am I supposed to..â€

 

You are the one doing the supposing here. No one can tell you any different.

Try it few ways and trust your judgement.

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Hi Rudi-  Thanks a lot for that answer- very helpful. I think you're right that the ultimate answer is "do what sounds best." I've been learning a lot of theory lately, though, so while I certainly appreciate that many (if not most) "rules" of music are meant to be broken, I wanted to check if there was a rule (using that loosely) about whether one should typically move in a certain direction from one chord to the other (in general, not specific, notation: I, IV, V, etc).

 

Thanks,

Dan

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  • 2 months later...

always do what sound best, that is the golden rule, but how do we make it sound it's best is the rub.

Some general ideas for voice leading: don't just consider the two chords I to V or whatever they are but the progression as a whole. the idea is to have the voices moving in a manner that is pleasant to listen to (or unpleasant if that's what you're going for). especially the outer voices ( the lowest and highest note you play). they should always move in a logical way (usually without any jarringly large jumps), however if the effect you want is achieved without following these "rules" by all means have at it. using inversions and extensions ( 9th,11th 13th b9, #11 etc...) make the creative possibilities endless and that's the beauty. experiment, practice and have fun.

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  • 2 months later...

another factor on how to voice your piano chord would be to consider how you want the piano part to function in your arrangement. Is it comping under a vocal line or is it supporting a hook or other musical passage? Maybe keep it smoother under the vocal. Maybe more stylized to make it stand out more.

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  • 1 month later...

all good advice from others - I would elaborate a little.

 

lil jim dropped a very important and relevant term/phrase.. "voice leading"

 

Depending on the voice leading you choose, (individual) voices can be described as moving in contrary, or parallel motion. From there your voice leading choices are: smooth, jumpy, and somewhere in between.  The 'order' in which you spell your chords is a matter of personal taste but there are often genre appropriate choices.

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  • 2 months later...

Also, as I recently re-read in one of my favorite tiny-books:  "Music theory is generally descriptive, not prescriptive."  It tells you what you did, and suggests why it did or didn't work (and what else might).  But it doesn't tell you what to do.

 

 

The major triad in root-position is two minor intervals in their proper place in the overtone series.  In the second and third inversions, there are major and minor intervals, with a perfect fourth supporting the root.  Thirds become sixths.

 

Intervals, not notes, are really "where it's at," and in any sequence there are always at least three factors at work:

  1. The intervals within a particular chord.
  2. The flow between notes of adjacent chords, which is an arpeggiation that can spell-out (over time) one or several chords that are neither the start nor the end of the pair, nor any one of the chords around and through which they flow.  If you use suspensions and other tricks, one thing that you're doing is to emphasize these "ghost chords," which otherwise exert a very "phantom" influence upon the total phrase.  Phantom, yes, but ghosts are real.
  3. The intervals that the notes of any chord imply relative to the song's established tonal-center or "public key," are in addition to the established ones that they have within their own "private" key.  Every note in the scale has certain tensions, and if you're playing, say, "D-major" in the key of "C," the D-F#-A of that chord is perceived, not only as (say) a root-position triad   (1-3-5) of the chord's home key of "D," but also as a (2-4-6) against the song's home key of "C."  So you've got both the comfort of a third, and the dissonance of a second.  (Three seconds, in fact, in root position ... no, make that six since they're hitting their neighbors above and below ... but, notice, not-so-much in other inversions.)  If you modulate to D as a new key, that sense of dissonance will quickly go-away; if not, it lingers.

When you talk of "voice leading" – of "why voice-leading?" – I think that's really "it."  The leading is occurring over time.

 

The "little book" that I speak of?  Why, yes, imagine that – I have it right here ...

 

The Elements of Music:  Melody, Rhythm & Harmony, by [Dr.] Jason Martineau.  (New York: Walker Publishing Co., 2008.)

ISBN-13:  978-0-8027-1682-8.

 

It is literally small, 7-1/4" x 6", and a mere 58 little-pages long, but it is stuffed with approachable information, such that it took me about 5 minutes to carefully read every page, each of the very many times that I have done so.  And, each time I do it again, I learn more.  (In that regard, it's exactly like the middle-third – the "textbook section" – of Jimmy Webb's Tunesmith.)

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  • 2 months later...

 "Music theory is generally descriptive, not prescriptive."  It tells you what you did, and suggests why it did or didn't work (and what else might).  But it doesn't tell you what to do.

 

The major triad in root-position is two minor intervals in their proper place in the overtone series.  In the second and third inversions, there are major and minor intervals, with a perfect fourth supporting the root.  Thirds become sixths.

 

I like the quote.

 

Though I too am not sure what "proper place" is or why it may or may not be relevant, everything else in the second paragraph is correct.

 

If I'm understanding correctly, the whole thing about 'ghost chords' (which is a term I've never heard before) is simply that the ear remembers, and puts what is currently being played in the context of what was last played.  What I'm tempted to not agree with is the concept that the notes of the ultimate chord that were not present in the penultimate chord are perceived as tensions in relation to the penultimate chord.  There are cases where this may be true, but my ear tells me there are just as many if not more cases where this is not true, and if the argument is that it's all relative, then I would retort that in most cases it is inconsequential, in many more cases those new notes are either perceived as having a different functionality (e.g. V of V), or are simply heard as inner melodies (aka - voice leading)  ..but that's just my ears talking.

 

In any case we're splitting hairs here.  Voice leading - ghost chords - as far as answering the question is concerned, the point is that choice of inversions and spacing of the notes of each chord makes a difference.

Edited by M57
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For example, in going from a "I" chord to a "V" chord (C-chord to G-chord), I had assumed I should just be playing "C-E-G" for the "I", then transition to the inverted "V" (V^6, "five-six"), or "B-D-G", because that would greatly minimize the motion required for my hand.

 

But, just recently, I was reading through a good book I found on music theory that really gets into what I'll call "songwriting theory", and it seemed to be stating that there is a HUGE difference between playing "I" --> "V", verus playing "I" --> "V^6"... not that you would never play "I" --> "V^6", but it seemed that it was pretty atypical vs. most songs out there (i.e. on the radio).

 

Thus (assuming what I said above is generally right and makes sense), you can see the predicament I'm in, and hence, the stupid question: If I am indeed supposed to [generally] be going from "I" --> "V" instead of --> "V^6", do I go UP the keyboard (i.e. same octave) from the C-chord to the G-chord or DOWN the keyboard (down an octave) from the C-chord to the G-chord? As I said, I had previously assumed (I think, incorrectly) that the answer to this question was "stay in the same place", and just invert the next chord (and the chord after that, etc) to minimize hand movement required from one chord to the next.

 

Any help from any of you music theory / piano / "songwriting theory" experts out there would be GREATLY appreciated!

 

Thanks,

Dan

 

I'm can't be sure but I'm guessing you might be confusing a 6th chord (pop/jazz) with a first inversion chord (using "classical" figured bass notation). The latter is notated by referencing the intervals above the bass note (not the root).  A I6/3 chord in the key of C is a C chord in the first inversion - spelled from bottom to top E - G - C.  On the other hand a I6 chord is a C triad (presumably in root position) with the sixth tone of the scale (an "A") present to add tension.

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@Steve,

 

Sorry, I chose poor descrptors. I was thinking of the ultimate chord as the chord of the moment (which may be passing or something like a V of V) and the penultimate as the one preceding it - I was assuming that more chords will follow, but we don't necessarily know what they are.  In essence, I believe we are in agreement.

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  • 3 weeks later...

First of all, if you are writing modern songs, do not worry about figured bass or parallel fifths/fourths or any of that.  That is for Classical music.  While classical music can definitely influence great pop songs (Queen, Mika, Regina Spektor off the top of my head), there are different theory "rules" and terms that don't equate in traditional harmony.  This is why at Berklee we had theory/harmony and if we wanted to learn counterpoint we took trad harmony.  They were very different.

 

That said, you can vary whether your hand goes up or down for a chord for effect, and experimentation will give you a sense of the subtle emotional impact that can give, but what I want to suggest to you, Dan, is that you try learning to change chords in one position.  Its called voice leading, and it can make your playing and writing sound very mature.  If your right hand holds CEG, in any order, inversion has an effect, but for the sake of argument its irrelevant here, the G chord will have the note G in common.  So keep your finger on the G when you change from the I to the V chord.  

Next find the nearest note for the remaining two notes.  Depending on the inversion (and it doesn't have to be a real inversion, maybe you double up a note or have a color tone in there- again irrelevant for now), you will move your "E" finger to "D" and your C finger to "B."

 

This is just scratching the surface, but its a method most advanced players use a great portion of the time.  From there you can choose to change octaves, voicings, etc. for effect.

 

I could go on and on about this...

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One of my favorite techniques is moving up and down the inversions of a chord to move to another octave or voicing.  It requires some muscle memory, but it is a great technique to have under your fingers on guitar or piano.  Let's say you have a right hand CEG (thmb on C, then middle and pinky), then move up to thumb on E, index on G and pinky on C, then move to thumb on G, middle on C and pinky on E.  Now repeat octave by octave.

 

This is great for moving between sections of songs where the chords are the same but you want to go up high for effect (and maybe let the bass drop out for a stripped down effect).  Or your chorus has the same chords as your verse but you want to shift into a different voicing to break up the monotony of the having the same chords played over and over.  

 

Also, if your melody goes up, consider contrasting the chord shift by going the opposite direction with your hands, and vice versa for singing lower.

 

One last thought:

lets say your progression goes:

I to V four times in a section.  consider dropping down to the V or using voice leading the first 3 times you go to the V and raising up to the V the 4th time if if proceeds a Chorus.  Do the exact opposite if winding down from a chorus to a verse or ending a song.

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Glenn, thank you very much for the thoughtful and informed reply! This is exactly the type of answer I was hoping for, and it's very helpful!  Thanks to everyone else for your great answers, as well - very much appreciated.

 

Dan

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