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Lengthy Songs?


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So I have quite a few rough sketches of songs, and one demo but I've noticed that most of my song ideas end up pretty long, in terms of pop/rock music. The average length is about 4:50, and my last was about 6:30....it's not exactly a problem but it's not like I'm trying for epics or anything like that, it's just that by the time I flesh out the music and the lyrics I end up with a lengthy song.

 

Anyone have any idea what I'm doing (or doing wrong)? I'm a little worried that if I take anything away or change the structure the music won't sound as "complete"

 

Thanks for any advice.

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Keep 'em long then. You are the best judge of your music. My last one was 7:29 and to be honest it didnt need to be that long. But it was better that long.

 

If people tell you otherwise, then worry about it. Your own instincts are your best guide.

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WSBH, I'd suggest that much depends on what your intention is. If you're aiming for the commercial market, it's generally advised to keep songs under the 4-minute mark. It's said that an A&R person won't spend more than 30 seconds listening to a submission; if it doesn't grab him/her within that time, it's tossed, and on to the next song. Another rule of thumb is to keep an intro under 20 seconds, and aim to hit the first chorus by the 60-second mark. I'm sure you've heard the adage 'Don't bore us - get to the chorus'. ;)

 

Though of course, certain genres - e.g. prog-rock - are usually fairly long.

 

If your goal is simply to create songs that give you and your friends, family, etc. pleasure, then - as Rudy says - follow your instinct . :)

 

It doesn't hurt, though, to post these songs for review. it's too easy to become attached to our 'darlings', and so we choose not to hear those areas in a song that might in fact be boring, repetitive, lacking in prosody, and so on. You might find that shortening a song even from 6:30 to 5:15 makes a positive difference, giving the song a completely different energy and dynamic. ;)

 

ADDED: You also need to determine your niche audience. Nowadays, the average person likely won't want to listen to something that's overly long, and that doesn't have attention-getting hooks throughout - whether lyric or musical or both.

Edited by DonnaMarilyn
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I wanna wholeheartedly and enthusiastically second what DonnaMarilyn said before; spot-on advice. Pay special attention to her final paragraph. IMO most songs can benefit from "going on a diet." Not only will your work be stronger, but you will be strengthened as a writer by learning to pare your work down.

 

My 3¢...

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So I have quite a few rough sketches of songs, and one demo but I've noticed that most of my song ideas end up pretty long, in terms of pop/rock music. The average length is about 4:50, and my last was about 6:30....it's not exactly a problem but it's not like I'm trying for epics or anything like that, it's just that by the time I flesh out the music and the lyrics I end up with a lengthy song.

 

Anyone have any idea what I'm doing (or doing wrong)? I'm a little worried that if I take anything away or change the structure the music won't sound as "complete"

 

Thanks for any advice.

 

5 - 6 minutes and you're worried? Sheesh... I'm in trouble.

 

Have you tried extending them?

 

Sorry... that's not very helpful is it. Maybe if you post in the critique section you'd get more specific advice on each song.

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5 - 6 minutes and you're worried? Sheesh... I'm in trouble.

 

Have you tried extending them?

(They've got to make a smiley that's laughing while shaking his head.)

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The favourite albums of my youth always had the fewest tracks.

 

Such as

Ummaguma - Pink Floyd

Live Dead - Grateful Dead

Islands - King Crimson

 

Of course they were not commercial. That's why they were so much greater.

When your dealing with numpties with the attention span of a sparrow, you're gonna get 'The Birdie Song' (or endless variations of it).

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The favourite albums of my youth always had the fewest tracks.

 

Of course they were not commercial. That's why they were so much greater.

Greater? Greater than what?

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OK... I'll agree that Live/Dead (by The Grateful Dead) was the greatest album released at its time (which was precisely 11:42AM on Monday, November 10th, 1969).  :whistle:

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In all seriousnessess ... I think a song should be the optimum length for.... that song. And I guess that optimum is just very slightly less long than most listeners (those that honestly enjoy the song) want it to be? Unless it's aimed at commercial 'pop', in which case I guess there are limits to stay within.

 

I know that some of mine are too long, so they'll be edited when I find what that length should be (and that's harder to know about ones own songs than songs by others). I do like long songs, but they shouldn't be long just for the sake of it...and shouldn't be shortened for the sake of it either.

 

Am I talking nonsense? Probably.

 

Best to add an extra 2 minutes onto each song...just in case!!

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 I do like long songs, but they shouldn't be long just for the sake of it...and shouldn't be shortened for the sake of it either.

 

Am I talking nonsense? Probably.

 

No. You're spot on !

 

I (impishly) have suggested that long songs are better. I was being less than serious but scrupulously honest too ;)

 

PS

 

I'm getting impatient for a better album than 'Live Dead' to turn up. Its been 44 damned years now.

Come on you slackers - Raise your game.

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  • 2 weeks later...

I agree that going back and removing parts of finished songs after the fact could run the risk of making them sound awkward or incomplete.I say if the songs you've written sound right at the length they are...keep them that length. 

 

But for the songs you've yet to write...if making them shorter is your aim (which it sounds like it is), then always make a point to be mindful of length from the very beginning. That will inform the choices you make.

 

Something as simple as limiting the number of lines in the verses or the chorus can go a long way. Commit to writing song sections that do not go over a certain number of lines (or measures, if you're a "music first" writer).

 

Also keep intros short...avoid the temptation to add too many instrumental breaks or solos...a lot of these can add unecessary fat to a song. 

 

Listen to Beatles' Revolver for a good example of how it can be done...not a song on that album that went over the 3 minute mark.

Edited by gradual
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  • 1 month later...
  • 4 weeks later...

Definitely throw "draft" copies up somewhere that some of us can hear them and critique.  Hearing others' opinions, early enough that you can still do something about it, can help you to shape ideas for a song.

 

If you're using a digital audio program (a DAW) on your computer, and I cautiously presume that you do (or should), there are some creative possibilities available to you that will let you "have your cake and eat it, too" with regards to how long a particular version of(!) your song turns out to be:

 

  • Think of your song in pieces, of various but consistent lengths ... 30 seconds, 12 bars, whatever ... and as a creative approach think of ways to write these pieces so that they pass through common-ground(s) at the beginning and at the end, so that they can either butt-up to one of their "compatible neighbors" directly, or do so with a one- or two-measure bit of "glue."  Let each of these be a "region" on the time-line.
  • If you've already written your song, listen it through and drop "markers" along it where cut-points might be.  On a copy of that one long region, split the region into pieces.  (The split-point is not audible.)  Yes, you have the original pristine uncut track, and the split version(s) of the same thing.
  • Name each one.  Take notes constantly.

 

  • As you work, you will make copies of the material from these (muted ...) tracks, and arrange them onto a new scratch-track, muting all the others.  ("Solo" it ...)
  • If you decide that you don't like it, you will nevertheless keep it, "mute it and forget about it."  You do all of your work non-destructively, saving your work constantly, and "Time Machine" is chugging away in the background on your Macintosh all the time.

 

  • Now, start playing with it.  You may, for example, come up with a "variation" of a region, maybe longer maybe shorter maybe just different.  Keep it, putting a copy on a track near the top where you can always find it again.  You'll come up with bits of "glue" that provide smooth transitions, and of course, variations on that glue.
  •  Remember:  "non-destructively!"  Tape that trash-can tightly shut.  Never throw-away anything that you Created.

 

Suddenly, you realize that this is an entirely different sort of songwriting creativity:  you're stringing together pieces, like those colored blocks that have magnets on both ends.  You can arrange them in different ways.  Each one changes the dynamic of the song, sometimes in very unexpected ways that may or may not please you.  (Or, please you "at first.")

 

Play-back the muted ("yuck!") tracks every now and again ... something might sound good again.  Same technique:  leave it, copy it, fool with it (such that you still have both ...) and add yet another line to the note-pad (with a trusty sharp #2 pencil) that you're keeping beside you all the time.

 

The variety and yet also the structure of the piece ... "structured variety" ... will shine through to the listener's ear.  She will know it's there, without maybe putting her finger on just what you have done, and because the song presents her with both constant variety and a perceptibly consistent structure, the song will hold her attention (and yours) however-long.

 

HTH!

Edited by MikeRobinson
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  • 7 months later...

It depends on your target audience. If you're targeting stoners, longer is often better as long as it's interesting. Pop music audiences have short attention spans and like short songs. If the song is long, it generally needs interesting backing instruments or solos; singing alone won't keep the listener interested.

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It depends on your target audience. If you're targeting stoners, longer is often better as long as it's interesting. Pop music audiences have short attention spans and like short songs. If the song is long, it generally needs interesting backing instruments or solos; singing alone won't keep the listener interested.

This. With emphasis on "DEPENDS ON YOUR TARGET AUDIENCE"!!!!

Bob Dylan can write many a 10 min songs.

Kate Perry can not.

=)

S

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  • 3 months later...

What is making your songs long? Is it the lyrics, the tempo, or the musical interludes? There are ways to address all of these. If its the lyrics, are you telling too much of the story? Are you using superfluous words or phrases? Are you saying the same thing multiple times? Its easy to be verbose and taking a critical look at your lyrics is a good place to start.

Tempo is also a fickle beast. I've writtn more than a few songs at a slower tempo than they ended up.

Interludes... do they support the lyrics or do the lyrics support them? Do you need that 2 minute shredding guitar solo? Really?

Just a few questions to ask yourself.

Cheers,

Kel

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  • 8 months later...

Do you plan on putting these songs on the radio?  If so then I would aim for about 3:30 but that is just my opinion.  There are lots of songs on the radio much longer than that.  If you aren't worried about radio play then it really depends on the type of audience you are trying to attract. 

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It depends on the song. If you have a lot to say, and you can make it interesting, long songs are great!

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