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After my last post about effect chains , that kinda turned into a conversation about recording wet or dry and adding your effects after the fact ,it got me to wondering about how many of you are actually still using mic'd amps while recording ,or are just going strait into an interface and strait to the computer and working it from there.

Are amplifiers becoming obsolete unless your playing out ? [as I sit in a room with 6 amps ]

Advantages /Disadvantages etc.

Lets see where this one goes !!!

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I leave the amp in the cupboard and use the edited DAW patches.

 

BUT...

I cannot construct a half decent jazz sound.

Also, some of the patches that sound ok superficially are rubbish for solos. Specifically for 'picking'. I suspect that the attack is useless for anything other than hammer-on/pull-off.

 

Maybe its time to get the amp out.

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I know I've stated this elsewhere.. but here goes.

 

I can;t stand the latency when using amp sims. I also do not like the lack of feedback (even on clean settings) when recording to a daw.

While the THR http://forums.songstuff.com/blog/159/entry-1484-review-yamaha-thr10c-the-little-amp-that-can/ doesn't have mic sims it does have both a clean and an effected signal going to the computer.  This means that the fullness of the guitar sound dry is present on the dry signal. It doesn't sound choked, sterile or bland going in dry to the computer.  What's more in most virtual amps you don't get the "character" of the eq from the original amp. The THR does a great job of emulating the original eq's of the amps.

 

Sure I've got a really nice SampleTank collection from IK. but to me playing around and trying to dial in that "perfect sound" is more of a distraction rather then an ends to a means.

 

Re jazz tones. I'm always in search of more.  Much of it comes down to technique first, guitar second, the string gauge you use third and everything else thereafter. IMHO you aren't going to get a jazzy guitar tone out of a jackson or an ibanez.  Even ibby "artcore" jazz boxes sound stiff and harsh to my ears.  The only ibby barely palatable is the GB to my ears..  

 

Tele's are imho the most underrated jazz guitar out there.

 

So you have a guitar to start with.  Next comes...strings. If you are used to playing with 09's or 10's consider going up to 11's 12's or 13's

Specifically Flatwounds if you can afford them.  D'addario Chromes are good in a pinch

 

Next comes pick.

If you are a flat picker (and there is nothing wrong with that) get ahold of some  JD jazz III's They are thick but not too thick and stubby.

Tone also comes from your pick the thicker the pick the darker the tone.  JD jazz picks also make it a lot easier to hybrid pick. 

 

The pickup position

Usually solo's use only the neck position. Occasionally when backing off to play soft rhythms in the background many will use the middle position. Quite a number of high end jazz guitars only have one pickup for this very reason. The vintage 40's often have a single floating pickup attached to the pickguard above the body with a solid carved top. (more on that for another day)

 

Where you pick along the strings is also important Especially with solid body guitars. If you are use to playing near the bridge work out playing with your picking further down the body like past the middle position, over the neck pickup and along the neck south of the 12 fret.

 

Getting to the tone from your instrument.

All the high end jazz boxes use low output pickups (usually Armstrong) for a reason. A lower output pickup has less compression and you get more nuance out of them.

 

 

Saving replacing pickups you may also wish to consider lowering your neck pick up.  In a pinch you can simply get used to turning down the volume on your guitar not going past 8.

 

If you are using standard steel strings consider backing your tone down to 5. Usually south of that things start to get muddy. 

 

About amps back in my day of playing out in jazz band settings I would use either my 335 or my Samick hj650 running directly into a Fender Bassman or a Traynor Bass amp (I preferred the traynor as it had a presence control for that little lift in tone.  Don't want to use the bright switch.

 

Currently I use the (Fender) Deluxe sim for my more mellow jazzy stuff and the American Blues (fender blues deville) for my more punchier / aggressive jazz tones.

 

Your millage may vary on the next bit of info depending on how accurately your amp sims reflect the actual models through the gain stages and eq settings.  Even on an amp not intended to distort with a pre / post or gain / master volume setting compression happens when you apply too much volume on the pre or gain control. Compression also happens naturally when you hit the strings harder.  Turn the master all the way up then dial in the gain before it distorts with your eq set flat first.  Turn off the bright switch. and just play around for abit before you adjust the eq with everything set flat. Everything before (guitar, strings, pickup) If you have a presence control (which operates at a higher range then simply a treble tone control) try adding some in after you've set everything else up.

 

 

About reverb. Big full hollow body guitars with carved tops have a natural reverb. Adding reverb or delay on top of either a carved top (which has more reverb and is more susceptible to feedback) is really not a good idea.

 

Great playing but the  reverb is ...well too overwhelming. Solid body guitars don't have that feature/affliction of natural reverb coming from the guitar.. A nice small room reverb that sits at less then 5 is sufficient to add body without overpowering or drowning out your other instruments. Tape echo if used with discretion can enhance the tone with soft fuzzyiness. Much of the character of the tone comes from....the floating bridge. Floating bridges add a "pre delay" to the tone as opposed to fixed bridges which have a faster attack.

 

Most, not all my guitars I can carve a usable jazz guitar tone from.  When I don't obsess about not near enough (as an example I'm in love with the tone from that Dangelico copy where the reverb is too loud but the tone is stunning otherwise)... when I'm not obsessing on amp settings and concentrating on technique because tone comes from your fingers first. I find I make more music that is satisfying

Edited by TapperMike
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A few things to add about the "tone" of jazz.

 

Not only did earlier jazz boxes have floating bridges for greater acoustic projection which results in a slightly more delayed sound with slightly less initial attack) both hand techniques developed because of the characteristics of the instrument. String action was high and string gauges heavy. As a result jazz players would right hand mute before they hit the strings then clamp down as the pick or fingers.. The right hand muting served as a means to reduce feedback from the instrument.  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-5qZk7c_xA

 

Thumb or pick If you really want to get a handle on "jazz tone" and jazz guitar. start with rhythm playing and...Downstrokes only Downstrokes had more projection and are slightly darker. Many a novice doesn't pay attention to the correct strum pattern (including myself in my earlier years). In the example above that is more of a western swing pattern. Short, short, Long short. All quarter notes.  Trad jazz is more often... Long short, long long or Long short Long short.  There often is a slight mute going from the fourth beat to the first even when the chord doesn't change. Back then it was mostly about the guitars action and projection 

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Mike,

 

Thank you. All this is going to take a while to digest.

Yes I am using Jacksons, and yes I had a nearer jazz tone using a standard Strat.

 

My Spanish guitar is pretty good for tone but I want to use techniques that dont work on a nylon acoustic.

 

As for down strokes, I began using alternating up-downs because its what Wes Montgomery advocated (he changed to this later in his career).

 

I will go through your suggestions and listen to all the links properly over the next week.

 

Thanks again.

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Appreciate yalls input , and I love how a conversation kinda flows from one conversation to the next while all kinda still having relevance to each other.

Its kinda funny how some of the people in previous post swore by recording totally dry and adding all effects after the facts are kinda rethinking that , or bringing up issues that they cant get resolve with software as far as achieving the tone they are chasing for certain types of stuff.

I must agree that if you have the resources , you cant go wrong with two interfaces , one capturing dry and one recording the mic'd amp side.

I must admit that most of the recording Ive done has been jacked directly into my recorder , and it sounds decent ,but as much tweeking as Ive tried , I still cant get it to sound like it does coming out of my amp [especially my 4x12 closed back cab] . When moneys a little better I am getting a couple Shure 57's .

As far as jazz , I dont really play much although Im a huge Guthrie Govan fan . I think he is awesome with The Aristocrats .

Everytime I try jazz stuff it comes out more like funk , which Im really into as far as offbeat and sincopation .

As far as picking technique Im usually a slightly angled picker , fairly choked up for pinch harmonics or muting out unwanted notes , and like you said , anywhere from the bribge to the neck depending on the tone Im looking for ,and also couldnt agree more about the pickup height having a huge impact on tone .Thats the last part of an overall guitar setup i perform , searching for the sweet spot for how I want that guitar in particular to perform .

Same with a pick . Its hard to believe that the type of pick could have such a huge impact on the sound .I keep a dozen or so sitting on my desk where I play and know which ones will give me the sound I want usually .If not Ill just keep trying different ones till I find one for what Im doing . I guess I should figure out why in case I ever have to buy any . Fortunatly Im pretty good friends with some people at the guitar store I go to , and their all the time giving me picks to try !!!

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I use my strat quite often for jazz but it's for my listening pleasure only.  Generally I have old dead strings on it already so...it's not quite the same as flatwounds or chromes but it does dull the tone abit.

 

Strat's have a tendency to sound like rubber bands when you try to play jazz and turn down the tone too much.

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Getting back to a few things....

 

Rudi 

 

So it's about Wes Montgomery huh?  Well that's a very specific style of jazz.

 

Pick and thumb are entirely different tones. An upstroke with the thumb sounds darker then an upstroke with a pick.  If you are one of those that finger picks with the flesh and not nails you'll be able to pull off a "closer to jazz" sound with flesh.  You'll still need to stick to the neck pickup and turn your tone way down on the guitar.

 

A lot of WM's tone comes from  The man and the guitar.  Fat big hands on thick strings with what I would consider higher action.

Unlike the rest of us... WM never had to play unaccompanied.  When one plays in a combo. doing most "Chord-Melody" gets thrown out quickly as there is another musician to handle the chords and more often then not your stepping on what that musician is trying to accomplish (be it another guitarist or a pianist) Same holds true for the bassist. Trying to pull off a walking bassline and chord or bass and melody steps on the bassist zone.

When pianists and guitarists are working out chords in a jazz setting.  The guitarist defaults to 3 note comping chords while the pianist works out the extensions / inversions etc

 

The easiest way to get a handle on Wes type playing is to start off with simpler tunes where you can focus on the melody only like ...

 

Simple melody, all octaves with a sufficient amount of sliding into and away from notes.

 

Regarding using a strat..

Neck pickup only turn the tone way down and if you have a grease bucket (tbx) tone control turn that off as well.

 

 

 

 

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Mike,

 

I misunderstood part of your earlier message about downstrokes. You were speaking of chord playing. I mentioned Wes only because I read an interview with him where he said he had revised his picking style to alternating up & down strokes (and the way he held the pick). I dont especially favour Wes over other jazz players, but he cant be ignored. This led me to using alternating up & down strokes and making it a major part of my lead style.

 

Thumbpicks: I have used thumbpicks for years, but only when fingerpicking a steel-strung acoustic. I have no idea how anyone would make an upstroke with a thumbpick. Seems to me it would pull the pick straight off the thumb.

 

I may look into finding another guitar for jazz. Could take a while. Gibsons have narrow necks and I cannot get used to those (I tried for 30 years).

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About downstrokes.  ... Before your concern was... to sound more like jazz and not specifically like Wes Montgomery.  You are correct I was directing it at ...rhythm jazz playing specifically the earlier years.  Though jazz guitar did evolve up to the point of Wes Montgomery some educational practices (using down strokes only for rhythm) are still prevalent in .jazz studies.  It's almost a given if you accompany someone on a standard to stick to those practices today.

 

 

Regarding buying a box...

I'm the most particular and judgy guy in the world about jazz boxes having had more then a few misses in search of the perfect one.  Oddly I just bought one on ebay and I've never heard it before buying. I can only assume it will sound close to a D'angelico Excel as that is what it was modeled after.

$_57.JPG

 

So lets break things down a bit.

Gibson has basically two necks for hollow and semi hollow bodies.  The tapered slim 60's profile and the more rounded neck.  More often then not if you are getting a jazz box you'll be getting a "Fat D" neck

 

You are going to have to go out and play more then a few boxes at stores. Get used to clamping down hard on the strings. If anything it will give you an idea for the feel of the neck. No wizard necks on jazz boxes. 

 

Great Boxes are expensive.  Midline Boxes still cost a pretty penny. If you want a nice midline jazz guitar then there is only one factory in the world where they are produced...Peerless.  Peerless produces there own line of jazz guitars and produce hollow and semi hollow body guitars for everyone else. Gretsch, Epiphone, D'angelico to name a few.  Peerless is in South Korea. It's the only major manufacturer of hollow and semi hollow body guitars (going on 15 years now) in Korea.  It's a safe bet if the box has a made in Korea stamp on it that it was made by Peerless.  The guitar I'm getting was made by Peerless.  Most Peerless made guitars start at 1200.00 USD and up

 

Avoid the bottom of the barrel jazz boxes. Cort, Turser, Burton.  They often have more problems then doans has pills.  They also have a tendency of sounding "tubby"  Honestly look around for a nice used midline guitar before you reach for one of those.

 

...more to come

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My spanish guitar could be used for a trampoline. Its a challenge to play.

The gigging jackson has standard slinkys. They usually are shipped with lighter super-slinkys (as with the studio Elite).

 

I like to have a little something to fight against with a guitar. I tried flatwounds on my acoustic once. It sounded terrible. I never tried them on an electric.

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Anyway getting back to buying a box.

 

Don't even bother with smaller semi hollow bodies. Telecaster Thinlines,Samick  LaSalles etc.  They have none of the character of a jazz box. Mostly they sound like their solid body counterparts with the mids and lows cut out a bit. When you try to roll off the tone they mostly just turn to mud.

 

Semi-hollow body guitars almost always invariably use a center block of wood. It does several things. Reinforces the body making it more stable. Reduces the air flow making it less prone to feed back. Adds mass to the overall tone making it sound well... more like a solid body.  Feedback is a bitch with full hollow body guitars. All that being said the closet you'll get to a full hollow body tone on a semi hollow body guitar is a 335 style

 

Remember we are going for that "L5" tone.

 

Which brings us to our next collection of jazz boxes.  The 175's

 

175's started out being cheap student guitars made by gibson.  They caught on like wildfire for several reasons.  First.. The price, Second the comfort size and third (most importantly) the laminate (as opposed to carved) top. Back for a time Gibson wanted to control the prices in retail stores. They did so by naming guitars based on ...price.  a 335 cost 335 a super 400 cost 400 and a 175 cost 175.  i75's demand a very high price mostly because of the jazz legends that all started using them in the 50's 60's and beyond.  But much of it is warranted in the tone they produce.

They are just as deep as big brothers however don't have the bout.

 

Aside from the George Benson model imho ibby jazz guitars suck.  The GB model is a closer representation of a 175 then all others on the market. And it's outrageously priced.

New... The best 175 copy you'll find under 1k is the Loar LH 280-C and quite possibly you'd have to go over the 2k mark to find something that sounds near this guitar.

 

Big Boxes

Wes Montgomery played an L5 CES any L5 is expensive WM signature model is through the roof.  While there are still some important difference to go through aside from the box itself.  The box size does have a major impact on the final tone. Full size jazz boxes are still 3 inches deep (on average yet have a 17 inch bout. Wide bouts can make it difficult to play. standing or sitting.which is why Wes is seen playing the guitar in the position it is.  These are chair / couch guitars at best. Standing with one is quite uncomfortable even if you take the joe pass low posture  

 

If you'll recall I went shopping for a big jazz box and was thoroughly disappointed with the market a few years back.  I'm told that the guitar I ordered had low action and a relatively thin neck.  We'll have to wait and see on that one. Action on older and even newer recreations of older jazz boxes is high. That's the way they were designed from the 20's when acoustic jazz guitars were originally made. They needed projection and keeping the strings higher afforded that projection.  Even as pickups were retrofitted into jazz guitars the tradition of high action remained.  Because of the delicate nature of full size jazz boxes there is often more relief required in the neck. It's not uncommon for there to be some "lift" along the fretboard after the 12th fret even with more expensive guitars.  I've had to raise the action on my Michael Kelly Phoenix vibe to accommodate this.While I can play with lower action ..once I cross the 12th fret the notes sound rather dead.

 

So heres my quick reviews of full bodied midline jazz boxes.

 

Godin 5th Ave Kingpin

Honestly this thing sounds like the real deal 40's box. The rest of the Godins hollow bodies that followed Don't.  The action was unbearable for me.Loved the tone of a non cut away guitar hated trying to play it.

 

Washburns

Washburn has been making jazz guitars since way back and... I've never been that impressed with them. Same story couldn't play the damn things because the string gauges were through the roof thick and the action was high. The sales guy said that the action seemed low oddly.

 

Loar LH 350

Oddly it's not bright enough I'm surprised that this guitar which is a huge upgrade in box design sounds so dull. You want a jazz box to sound warm but not at the expense of losing it's sparkle.

 

Deans

These are blues and rockabilly guitars not really suited for jazzy octaves.

 

Samick.

Of the current line-up only the JZ3 was playable to me. It also was the only one even approaching "L5" type tone. Still I think Samick screwed the pooch.  The late 80's through 90's (pre greg bennett, not valley art) Samick HJ650 artist series was the finest box that company put out. I played that thing live for years. It was a comfortable "D" shape neck. Not too thick, not too thin and not too wide for small hands like mine.  The action was first rate. With thicker strings it's important to have some meat on the neck but you don't need that much. So long as the frets are high enough and the action sits right you don't need that much pressure on a jazz box, But,, you still need a little height for muting.

 

The whole story on floating bridges.

First they aren't mounted to the body. The only thing keeping the bridge in place is the strings. Never try to slam chords hard on one of these babies or take off all the strings at once.  If you don't know what you are doing you might be taking the guitar to a shop for setup. As mentioned before because of the floating bridge there is a slight (possibly not even noticeable) delay in the time it takes for the sound to be created. It has less "attack" then acoustic guitars, and fixed bridge electrics..  You don't need metal saddles if the bridge is properly compensated. Most are and...(here's the tricky part) most are for a wound "G" string.  Prior to Eddie Cochran all electric guitars had wound G strings.  Oddly while floating bridges make it easier to play thicker strings they don't make bending easier. Infact floating bridges make it harder to bend strings.

 

The acoustic tone.

Even if the top is laminated full bodied boxes are still going to produce acoustic sounds.  Acoustically it may not sound desirable. The original jazz guitars sacrificed tone for acoustic volume....more on that soon

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I have played a Gretch semi with a floating bridge. I even redesigned / engineered a perspex replacement component for this to enable action adjustment for the owner. Floating bridges are ok.

 

Wound thirds. Hmmm... could be painful! Never liked these but if it suits the style I can probably adapt.

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Electric flatwound guitar strings on a box (jazz guitar) sound entirely different then they would on an acoustic guitar or a solid body guitar.

All the videos that I've shown so far the players are using flatwound 

 

D'addario Chromes are a nice "midline" flatwound.  Round wounds have a tendency to sound harsh on jazz boxes especially unplugged.

 

One cannot judge how a jazz box will sound plugged in by playing it acoustically. More often then not what we hear when we listen to a recording of a jazz box is not the guitar in it's natural state.  Most of them sound like ratty Django type playing to my ears acoustically.

 

When we listen to jazz guitar that we are playing we get a compromise of guitar sound coming from the box and amp sound. It's a trick to try and ignore the guitar sound and focus on the amp sound. Otherwise we are so busy dialing in a tone that brings down the ratty high end we lose all the sparkle.

 

Which brings me to the great frustration of all jazz box players....Feedback.

Even though laminated tops on jazz guitars reduce feedback they don't eliminate it.  You wouldn't believe the howling that can come out of those things.  Flatwounds actually reduce but don't eliminate feedback.  Trying to point your guitar away from the amp as much as humanly possible helps.  Sometimes even when you have the amp in front of you and facing the audience it still doesn't help.  There is a big segment in specialty amp makers that have very expensive models which claim to reduce / remove feedback with notch filtering.  Honestly the best solution I've found has been.  Foam rubber

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I got this from - http://www.jackgrassel.com/pages/feedback.html

 

  1. Stuff the guitar with foam rubber or inflated balloons. Bend a wire coat hanger to facilitate installation or removal.
  2. Tape up the f-holes. (The tape may ruin the finish).
  3. Put foam rubber in the f-holes, closing them. Doug Turner will design foam plugs for your guitar. See them at: www.dougsplugs.com They look so cool you can't tell they are there. I highly recommend these.
  4. Glue thin balsa wood painted flat black to the underside of the f-holes. Because of it's permanence, this isn't recommended.
  5. Use a metal bridge instead of wood.
  6. Use flat wound heavy strings.
  7. Place the amp to the left so that your body shields the guitar.
  8. Set the amp at a lower volume.
  9. Wind more of the string onto the tuning gear stem, adding weight to the head stock and more tension on the nut.
  10. Place a thin strip of foam under the strings in the first fret to dampen open strings.
  11. Wrap a thin strip (quarter of an inch) of duct tape, adhesive tape, or packing tape around the strings at the first fret, "sandwiching" them between the tape.
  12. Remove the pickup covers for a thinner sound.
  13. Use a solid body guitar or an arch top with a plywood top if you must play in a situation which causes feedback.
  14. Use as little tone enhancement as possible on the amplifier. Start with the tone controls on zero and try to get a sound you like with the lowest possible settings.
  15. Turn in the pickup screws on strings 5 and 6 to reduce the volume a little.
  16. Since each guitar will vibrate differently and create feedback differently, experiment with all 6 screws, turning them in and out to find the best combination. Joe Leonard told me that Steve Howe turns all six screws in as far as they go.
  17. When playing with a band, have the bassist and amp on the drummer's left, put your amp on the drummer's right and then you on the right side of your amp. Your body will be between your guitar and the rest of the band and amps, shielding it. In the venue pictured above, for some reason, the overall sound was better setting up the opposite way. That's my Stromberg with a plywood top. It doesn't feedback.
  18. Get the bassist to use as little tone enhancement as possible and play softer. Bass guitars cause more feedback than upright basses. The smaller (an fewer) the bass amp speakers are, the less trouble you will have. Hire a bassist with a focused sound that isn't "boomy".
  19. Beware of drummers with shiny new cymbals.
  20. If you can be happy with a 10 inch speaker it will cause less feedback than a 12 or 15. The fewer speakers you have, the less feedback there will be. Four 10 inch speakers will cause more feedback than one 10 inch speaker.
  21. Use a closed back speaker cab. The sound only comes out of the front.
  22. Put your amp on the floor, not on a chair. Aim it straight ahead. Don't tilt it up toward the guitar.
  23. Have a luthier put a "sound post" in your guitar connecting the front and the back.
  24. Plywood tops feed back less than spruce because the accoustic response is minimized.
  25. Holes cut into a guitar top to install pickups result in less feed back than floating pickups.
  26. Play softer, beneath the feedback threshold.
  27. If the drummer is using clear heads, they may be tuned to a pitch that makes your guitar go crazy. You could invesigate this and perhaps ask the drummer to change his tuning. If that doesn't work, hire a drummer with coated heads next time.
  28. David Phillips of Texas uses an accoustic amp with a notch filter.
  29. If you don't like flat wound strings, use round wound on strings 3 and 4. Use flats on 5 and 6 where most of the feedback comes from.
  30. Try a multi-band equalizer to reduce the sound areas that cause feedback.
Edited by TapperMike
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I had not planned on gigging this. Anything is possible, but I'm presently looking to record only.

 

I have experimented with using elastic bands to dampen strings before without much success. I didnt think of foam, nor the first fret either.

 

I may nip over to Nevada Music on Monday to see what they have (though the web page is not encouraging).

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Yikes, Nevada forgot about where you live. I'd say start with pawn shops, move your way up to ma / pa reseller shops and finally if you must go to a big store like Nevada

 

If they have an acoustic listening room try to convince them to set up a small amp in there.  Big stores have terrible acoustics and it's hard to judge what the thing will sound like in your home from a huge storefront.

 

First ask what they have in "L5" type bodies and let them know your range is 

Epiphone Broadway's are essentially "L5's" with only slight differences in the tone.

 

Avoid all the semi hollow bodies/  Also avoid all the regents most are "swingster" which really sound more like rockabilly guitars.

 

Then ask about "175" style bodies.

L5's are 17 inch bouts with full (usually three inch or more) bodies. 175's are also deeper bodies with a smaller bout. 175's are more versatile and ar the next best thing once you move away from L5's Bring the tone control up and you have all those Steve Howe yes tones coming through.

 

Like I said previously.  I'm not a fan of Ibanez jazz guitars they are just too harsh there isn't any mellow in them. and I'm not a fan of Gretsch for jazz.  Your millage may vary.  Have a good listen get the feel for the instrument(s) and then feel perfectly comfortable walking away.

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I think Gretch are ok but cant imagine using one for jazz.

 

I had a quick visit to Nevada today and saw nothing close. But... apparently they have a Epiphone Broadway there. I didnt find it. Saturdays are busy. The demo rooms were full of pimply nippers doing the metal thing anyway.

 

2 shops within a 70 mile radius advertise ES-175s. One is a Epiphone eClub 2014 ES-175

 

My biggest concern is about nasty narrow necks.

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