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Neck Speed Myth?


neck surface finish  

6 members have voted

  1. 1. does your hand stay in contact with the neck as you change position?

    • yes
    • no
    • sometimes
    • I dont know. I'll fetch my guitar and find out


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I heard about this somewhere about 2 years ago.

 

The notion of players being encouraged to lightly abrade the back of their glossy guitar necks in order to improve speed moving up & down the neck.

I was of the opinion that this idea was nonsense.

 

A couple of days ago I found this being advertised as a custom guitar design feature at a luthiers website. This disappointed me and ruined my confidence in the man altogether.

 

Or is it nonsense?

How many here keep hold of the neck when changing position? Because this is the crux of the issue.

 

Because I don’t. I just let go. So there is no ‘sticky-ness’ nor friction involved.

 

Sometimes at a gig, my hands may get sweaty. So I go and wash them at the first opportunity. It doesn’t matter what surface finish the neck has, excess sweat will be a nuisance. Even so, it’s never speed that is impeded, just the feel.

 

Is this advice just another myth that some people are taking seriously?

 

 

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Interesting. I guess it may upset a few folk who obsess about sustain. A guitar maker maker once told me that the neck was principally responsible for sustain.

 

BTW, I am more than happy to be shown that I am unusual (& wrong) about the neck finish. It may well be that most people do not fully release grip.

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When I play,my hand never totally comes out of contact with the neck for a couple reasons.

1:To keep track of where my hand is on the neck,and if I'm playing well enough to remember where I'm at,move on to the next position without looking,

2:This is a big thing I try to show people that I try to teach new players;Always try to know where your going next,whether chording,running leads or doing arrpeggiated chord picking.You need to be ready to pounce,or already be moving a finger for the next note as your playing the present note,or preparing your available fingers for the next shape you are going to.

If I do come to a point when I'm not playing for a second or two,I will take that opportunity to let my hand relax and loosen back up before my next run.

Another thing I try to show people is to hold the neck somewhat relaxed.A death grip on the neck will make your hand tire extremely quickly,and seriously hinder your speed.

As for neck finishes,I love natural wood,and do believe that it does increase ease of mobility around the neck,which equals speed[thats part of the reason I love my Ibanez guitars so much],although I have many other guitars that have finish on them,and yes if your hands get sweaty,it does cause more drag.

 

I'm sure many people will disagree with me,but I'm gonna stick my neck out anyways,and mind that this is just my opinion.

As far as sustain,tonewoods,fretboard material,etc having a huge impact on sound,i very much agree with this reasoning on an acoustic.

As far as electrics i truely think that the only things that make a significant difference are the nut,the bridge,the setup of the neck [strings clearing all frets],obviously the strings themselves,and the pickups themselves and the height of the pickups not putting to much of a magnetic pull on the strings,causing  loss of clarity and sustain.

I must admit that maple fretboards seem to sound brighter ,but how can that be when the two points of contact are on the fret and the bridge.The only time I really notice a big difference is if I'm tapping.For some reason I get my best results tapping on rosewood necks[and for the life of me I can understand why].

As I said,thats just my opinion and would be more than glad for anyone or everyone to tell me why my reasoning is incorrect.

This oughta get interesting !!!!!!!

Edited by davidmichael
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Thanks guys. I need to know this. Being entirely self taught, I do lots of stuff 'wrong'. For example, where I can, I string bend downwards (towards the floor) rather than the regular way. It's nice to know just how far from the path I am.

 

Contact:

I honestly didnt know what I did until I grabbed a guitar and watched myself play. For small movements over a couple of frets I 'might' retain miniscule contact, but anything more, its a complete release.

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I agree, David, and would add to your list of significant factors affecting clarity and sustain, player technique.

 

Yes indeed.There are many things as far as players technique that will diminish or add to notes or chords being sustained.

For instance:location of finger placement between frets.Too close up on the frets will let your finger RIDE the fret and kill the note.

Also not pressing hard enough will kill a note in the same way as the string won't make solid contact on the fret.On the other hand pressing too hard can actually pull the intonation slightly sharp on a string,as will any unwanted bending to the side which is easy to do on light gauge strings.

Their are a lot of people that don't think about the fact that it's not your finger on the fret board itself causing the note,but actually the space between the fret just above your finger and the bridge actually making the note.

Also unwanted string muting which will occur if you don't as I call it "play over the top" of the strings to keep your fretting fingers from coming into contact with other strings.Same with unwanted palm muting.Great when you want it,terrible if you don't.

Other ways of adding sustain can be anything from using vibrato on fetted notes to using movement of the guitar itself.

As for other ways besides the actual players role,you can also improve sustain within your gear by adding gain to amp settings,using compressors,or using shear volume when appropriate.

As said in my previous post, pick up height plays a critical role also:[to low=lack of volume and not enough string energy to maintain sustain.Too high=distorted notes and lack of sustain due to magnetic pull] A little adjusting and listening and you'll find the "Sweet Spot"

I know most of this is common knowledge to seasoned players.Just trying to give some helpful insight to the not so experienced players out there. 

Also a larger mass tremelo block will supposedly add sustain,though I've never done this.

Also bolt on v/s set neck v/s neck through is also very high on the debate block.Look how many people love their Strat's,Tele's,Ibby's ,etc.....

Some of the best sounding players in the world use bolt on necks,and don't seem to have sustain issues.

 

I was very surprised and somewhat disappointed that I didn't get blasted from my previous post on this issue,as there are so many people out there that are dead set on their opinions on these matters.I wasn't really trying to start a debate on the subject,but I have read so many articles about this that turn into exactly that.

I am just really interested in hearing peoples thoughts and suggestions about this subject from actual players willing to share their wealth of knowledge.

David

Edited by davidmichael
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As Carlos Santana seems to have perfected infinite sustain, his rig should point the way for all those who chase it. It doesnt seem to matter whether its a fender or PRS he uses.

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Its just occurred to me.

 

It could well be that for metal players letting go of the strings might be a problem. Much of their technique is dependent on muting due to all that gain.

David, I imagine you would have an informed view about that?

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Interesting. I guess it may upset a few folk who obsess about sustain. A guitar maker maker once told me that the neck was principally responsible for sustain.

 

BTW, I am more than happy to be shown that I am unusual (& wrong) about the neck finish. It may well be that most people do not fully release grip.

Metal produces sustain, surely. A metal nut will replicate a metal fret and a metal bridge will have more sustain than a nylon or wooden one. Also having the pickups closer to the strings has to help. Makes sense to me, but I'm no expert.

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hmm, yeah/bo maybe.

 

How much are you willing to sacrifice for sustain?

 

Investing in a compressor maybe the short and long term solution as well as the economical one.

 

A long time back brass nuts and bridges were all the rage.

I had a guitar that was build for sustain like nobodies business.

 

falcon1.JPG

The falcon had more natural sustain due to the heavy woods a slightly thicker neck neck thru construction and brass bridge and saddles

It had more sustain then any guitar I had at that time including my Les Pauls (both the deluxe and the custom) But it also was considerably harsher in tone. I used to gig with it regularly as it wasn't quite as heavy as the LP's (which throws bodyweight out the window to a degree)

Brass saddles and nuts give of very harsh harmonics.  Your first goal is to find a guitar where by you like the tone. Brass does help sustain but it's not a be all end all.

 

Frets are made out of metal. If the nut isn't made out of metal the open notes wont have the same timber as the fretted ones. Is this something that you demand above all else? Because most common (tusq, graphite) nut materials will produce roughly the same amount of sustain for open notes and...That's about all it's good for. Maintaining character of tone between the open and fretted notes.

 

Bolt on guitars can lose sustain if they aren't flush mounted correctly. This is especially true of Strats and Tele's with the neck angle adjustment on the back of the guitar. http://www.fretnotguitarrepair.com/repair/electric-guitar/neck-angle.php  The micro tilt design was simply a way to remedy a bad original fit neck. This loose shifting neck was a favored technique for adding slow vibrato for many artists. Brace the horn or upper bout with your hand/forearm and try to move the neck.

 

Ebows and sustainacs are two different approaches to keep the sustain going.

 

 

 

With ebow's you lose attack. If you abuse your settings for your compressor you can also lose attack and limit dynamic range.

Dynamic range (quiet to loud) is actually less of an issue then people make it out to be. Because if the character of the softly played tone is preserved that's all the listener hears. It's character as well it helps the soft notes still stay prominent in the mix.

 

When not using  the ebow (because it focuses on one string) the more sustain you have the more uncontrolled feedback is likely to occur.It quickly becomes a full time job for your left hand muting technique.

 

 

 

 

 

 

It was a neck thru with serious weight.

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the ebow is ok & I suppose useful for recording. Live use? looks like a bit of faffing about TBH.

 

It may not have attack, but the attack demonstrated on the Hellraiser is harsh & noisy. Of those options I would prefer the ebow I think, unless the sustainiac pickup could be mellowed a bit. Nice looking guitar though. 

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I own an E Bow and it is a very fun product to use.

It does sustain forever as it was designed to.

I usually run it over the neck pickup with the tone rolled pretty much all the way down to get a synth like sound,which is were it works best in the regular position on the E bow switch[no matter where the tone is].

If you switch it to position 2,it works pretty much everywhere and is more of a harmonic sound.

I just wish it was as easy to use as the videos I watched that encouraged me to buy it.

It's a tricky little rascal to get used to,but just like everything else,practice,practice....

You can do awesome volume swells by moving closer or farther from the pickup.I also get some cool sounds combining it with delay.

The only complaint I really have is that it doesn't work as well on the upper registers or on the first E string,due to the increased string tension in these positions.In these cases it still works but needs a little help to get it going,like a hammer on,or starting lower on the string and working your way up as the string is vibrating.

I've managed to get pretty decent moving from string to string,maintaining a smooth sound.The part i cant seem to get down is playing arpeggios,but I'm still working on it.

All in all,a very cool product.

The intro to this song is what got me interested as Andy Timmons is one of my favorites.

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  • 3 months later...
Metal produces sustain, surely. A metal nut will replicate a metal fret and a metal bridge will have more sustain than a nylon or wooden one. Also having the pickups closer to the strings has to help. Makes sense to me, but I'm no expert.

 

I've heard somebody say that a pickup too close the strings will reduce sustain. The theory being that the magnetic pull will reduce string vibration. I have no opinion about that. I dont know.

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As for the original topic of friction or drag on necks.

 

I got into this again yesterday and it occurred to me that if the theory is true (a satin finish neck will enable faster positional change), the front of the neck will be an even bigger problem because there is more friction and drag from wound strings.

 

Now we all know that this happens because you can hear that 'swish' as fingers drag across the strings. Its on enough recordings.

 

This will create more drag than a glossy neck. So why not change to flat-wound strings?

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When a pickup sits to close to the strings the pickup can become demagnetized over time reducing it's output.  Same thing if you rest your guitar facing against a loud speaker.  Many 30~50 year old guitar pickups have lost 30% of there output or more.

 

Low action is inspiring. It makes you want to play faster. However it can have a negative impact on the attack portion of the sounds adsr.  With speed playing and tremolo bars there is always a trade of for bend range and action. Higher pickups can also cause unwanted compression in your tone. Softer attacks are less articulate, In short you'll have less nuance transferred from your technique to the output jack.  This may not seem important if you are a speed metal player but is important if you play any other style where playing dynamics are important for emoting.

 

In regards to string action there is also a portion of the equation often lost,Fret Height Fret Height can also affect clarity of tone.  I've got two telecasters with near identical neck specs and identical action.  All the measurements are exactly the same except for fret hieght.  On my Pinecaster (Modern Player) it has standard jumbo frets. On the Blacktop (vintage modified) it has medium jumbo frets.  The medium jumbos are raised higher then the standard jumbos.  Even acoustically the differences are abundant.  The pinecastet is easier to play.It's easier to play "stretch chords" it's easier to play octaves, it's an easy grip guitar.  The blacktop rings out more clearly.most notably the hammer ons and pull offs ring out more clearly.

Brighter, punchier more harmonic overtones.  Note this is a side by side comparison unplugged.  While granted the pinecaster is a pine body and the blacktop is alder which does affect the character of the tone a good deal of what matters in articulation has to do with how the finger greets the string and fret.

 

 

Overall I can't tolerate high action strings on any instrument. Low to medium low works fine for me with some caveats playing jazz boxes.

 

In regards to speed for speed sake a question that rarely comes up in discussion is..What are you willing to sacrifice for speed?

When I was a kid there was a commonly held belief that in order to gain maximum efficiency in speed playing one had to always maintain the lowest possible distance between the fingers and the fretboard. No flying fingers When you lifted your finger off the string it was always only supposed to be as high as to get the finger clear of the string. In order to maximize my playing with this approach I went to lighter gauge strings insanely low action thin necks. Speed and timing were everything, tone, dynamics, articulation were less important. I idolized Al Di Meola.  Sheer determination was the answer. I put away all interest in other playing styles or even learning songs or writing songs just to be as fast as humanly possible.  It worked...sorta.  My friends were enamored by my virtuosity,  Players many years my senior would often comment on my blazing technique.  But when it came to a jam set everything would always fall apart because the tempos I had mastered were much faster then the tempo's we'd play at.  Along the way I also developed some of my own original ideas towards playing. Coming up with tapping ideas I hadn't heard anyone do before. Developing a combination "two finger scale" approach mixed with rakes.  The truth was ... just because I hadn't heard or seen these approaches used before my ideas on speed playing techniques didn't mean others hadn't done them before. I just was out of the loop. So drawn into my own world of playing the rest of the world passed me by.

 

It's funny about the whole "flying fingers" thing. I see very fast players like the late Shawn Lane and jazz guys like Robert Conti Conti has huge lift when he scales...

 

And yet he plays as natural as it gets even at faster tempo's then shown.

 

So maybe the path I was on lead to my faster playing or maybe it was my sheer determination which accomplished the level of speed I could play at. In retrospect it's hard to say.

 

Shawn Lane had some interesting things to say about developing speed as a player which run contrary to popularly held beliefs. Including beliefs that I held dear. In retrospect I get what he's saying about the psychological impact.

 

 

 

Regarding flatwound strings.... 

I love them. I don't always play with them as they are considerably more expensive then round wounds. I love them for the tone and the feel on my fingers.

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Interesting Mike.

 

Like you I was playing in virtual isolation and re-inventing wheels all the time. Unlike you I didnt chase speed, but phrasing. Nevertheless, I thought I was fast anyway.

 

There are some 'ordinary' hammer-on-pull off licks that I never learned, but I would really like to, even now. Its because they are played so fast that I cant figure out whats happening.

 

Tapping. I never really wanted to make sounds like that. Just as well, because I cant. Yes I know its easy, but when Ive done it, the effect is kind of 'dull'. No big deal.

 

Sweep picking (I am talking about the neo-metalists sweep picking, not the normal old fashioned sort when it had no name):

Now that sounds great, and I even had a go at it. I incorporated it into my practice time and after a month I got tired of it. I got tired because its 'just one thing'. By which I mean its not versatile. It would take months of work for just a few microseconds of use. And if your like me, you would use it just once in a whole night of playing. Blink and you've missed it.


 

So by modern standards I am certainly not fast, but I can change position on the fingerboard PDQ and accurately. The accuracy comes by looking 1st just before changing. The speed (maybe) comes by letting go. No friction is better than reduced friction.

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Robert Conti: Just watched the link. Can you recommend his tuition Mike?

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I have personally not tried his method.  I became interested in Conti when checking out his brand of guitars manufactured by peerless.  I think they are outstanding guitars even if they are outside of my financial range.

 

I think if you are looking to study lines you will find no better source then Conti.  You may find very few sources equally useful and you may find many many more less useful.

 

A word about lines

Joe Pass uses the term differently with Joe Pass a "line" is a small insequential fill between melodic verses. They are not "licks" per say as they are not intended to stand on their own.  or distract from the melody.

 

For the rest of the world "Lines" means a string of notes that extend as one continuous stream for anywhere between 2 and 32 measures in length..

 

 

Playing jazz lines goes back to Satchmo 

Bob Conti is a gifted jazz player. Someone I'd never heard of before a few short years ago. He's paid all his dues and I think he's an amazing player.

 

Now for all the qualifiers.

I studied lines decades ago.I went in with a crappy attitude had no reference or context for them. As soon as I'd mastered one I went on to the next never to repeat or apply them. I'd already taught myself sight reading but I was taking a class in it as my teachers thought my sight reading was substandard. (and they were right) I'd get sheets of note and was required to play them. At first I'd get a week to learn then a day then an hour and then I'd have to read them cold. It was all part of the process of becoming a studio musician. At that time I had very specific views on what made a great solo or a great melody and how to best achieve that end.  My hardheadedness slammed the door shut for me.  Occasionally I'd come back to the concept of lines vs various other approaches.  If you approach the idea in earnest I have no doubt you'll do much better then I did.

 

 

If you haven't yet...Check out all the videos of Conti's students. It will tell you somethings.  Most all are already seasoned jazz players. They can play the chords with the right feel. They can play the melodies well and then the solo comes.  They play the solo well. Chances are they've played the songs long before taking the study course. Chances are they've played solo's based either on the original solo or their own soloing skill which they had before taking the course.  In short they aren't strangers to playing jazz already. They've had a foot in for decades. Adding a different approach to their jazz arsenal is not as challenging to them as it would be to someone with little to no prior jazz guitar playing experience.

 

Though with that taken into account (players prior proficiency) one still has to marvel at a player who already paid for the dvd set learned what they needed to and coming back to show off what they've learned as non paid endorsers. What also is amazing is when someone in academia a university jazz professor goes into great detail praising Conti's approach. (can't find the youtube video)

 

So there is a great deal of validity to what he teaches and why he teaches the way he does. He makes some very valid points and takes a lot of struggle out of the equation.  That's not to say there won't be a few challenges along the way.

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As an addendum .....

 

I'm starting my own jazz instructional lessons here on songstuff.

http://forums.songstuff.com/blog/159/entry-1535-fuzzy-logic-jazz-theorems/

 

First you get all the generalized theory. Then you get application via working out standardized progressions. With backing tracks in midi.  As I don't have rights to songs I can't give specific jazz standards like .. How to play autumn leaves but I can give generic ideas like chord progressions used on autumn leaves for proof of concept. 

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