Songwriting For A Living

[MonoStone]

This started as chatter on a song thread by Larry....

 

So rather than keep hijacking Larry's thread.... just moving it here -

 

 

Hi Dek,

 

I think you got my intention exactly right.  Whereas perhaps I misspoke a bit.  I don't think I necessarily meant I want to write pop songs, but more so commercially viable songs... which I know this song likely isn't nor ever will be.  Hence wanting to get it out of my system, in order to focus on more concise, tighter arrangements.

 

Who knows, maybe I'll never have it in me to write a sellable song, particularly with my influences.  But it has become the pipe dream to being able to make money that way vs. the daily grind.  I definitely want to sell songs for others to perform.   I'm too old and uncharismatic to ever make a go of it with me as the focus.  Perhaps I'm too old and out of touch to even write a song for today's youth.

 

At the end of the day however, I'm only capable of writing what pops into my head.  I don't think I'm able to force a kind of song that isn't in me to create, and I'm also limited by what what my ability allows me to do

 

To your point about Rush, definitely not everyone's cup of tea for sure. 

 

Good discussion though! In fact, maybe I'll edit my original post and pose a similar general question about what makes a commercially viable song in the musician's lounge instead.

 

Thanks as always for your insight!

 

Larry

Dek said - I often wonder the same... Could I write a commercial song which someone might pick up.... I've never tried...

Interesting topic yeah, and I wonder how many here are aiming for that... It seems like probably not many.

One for the lounge yep...

 

 

 

M57 said -

 

I don't doubt that many think they can.  It's very hard to be objective about one's own work when it comes to these things.  That said, I think very few can - and what most don't realize is that song-writers make next to NOTHING. Get your song picked up by an 'artist' (I use the term loosely), and you'd be lucky get a few thousand dollars for a hundred-million clicks.   The industry screws the song-writer.  One of my dreams (and I use the term loosely), is to have a major artist ask me if they can record my song - and I tell them to go suck an egg.  HAH.. Of course, the reality is likely to be different.     A thousand dollars would buy that microphone I have my eye on.  Bottom line, if you're writing songs, you'd better be doing it for love of writing songs.

 

Enough of this.  I'm hi-jacking Icough's song thread..

 

Dek said -

 

Yep this needs a thread, but I imagine Larry is interested....

 

Do songwriters really make so little? If you write a song that goes BIG, or MASSIVE, do you really do so badly? For example, I wonder how much Angela Hunte and Janet Sewell made from Empire State Of Mind.... even after Jay Z and Alicia Keys took their chunk (I believe they got credit for tweaking the original), I'm imagining it didn't leave Angela and Janet starving (more like dancin all the way to the bank). Or did it?

 

 

 

That's where we got to...if anyone is interested to continue the general chatter about writing songs for a living, and maybe especially for other artists.

 

 

[Just1L]

Great topic for sure. I didn't want to hijack the thread further, so thanks for creating a new link Dek. It seems everything that has been said has ran through my mind at one time or another. There are a lot of variables but I think one of the main things, that was stated above, is when writing commercially, you have to keep it simple. But I believe there is a caveat to that. Are you only trying to write commercial/sellable songs? Or are you trying to make YOUR songs commercial/sellable. I think the second choice is considerably harder than the first. 

 

Are you only trying to write commercial/sellable songs?

There are a lot of links and articles when it comes to "writing hit or commercial songs". The main thing I've taken from them is "don't steer too far off the path of proven success" and the KISS method applies.

 

There's a method of songwriting I've heard about that I personally do not like, but one that normally gets peoples tunes to sound more mainstream or commercial. It's the old … take a song you like (or hit song) and use that as the structure and then piece by piece change the parts until you make it your own. To me, that takes the whole fun out of songwriting when going in with that mindset. I know my songs have taken bits and pieces from here or there but at least to me, since it isn't intentional, it doesn't bother me as much. 

 

Are you trying to make YOUR songs commercial/sellable.

I think this is the toughest row to ho. It's a lot harder to change peoples minds than it is give them what they want. My only theory on that is regardless of what you're wanting to accomplish, the best way to change peoples minds is to give them what they want … but do it in YOUR style. There's a gazillion songs out there and a whole hell of a lot of them are great. So what differentiates between them all is the style and sound of them. Most bands have their "sound" that makes them unique. My theory is to have a bunch of your songs ready to go. Then have a few that have your style, but appeal to the masses. Simple songs, no crazy changes or really unexpected (i.e. different) turns and no need to get over-technical. When mixed in with your songs, hopefully it would be the sound of those hits that would make the other songs more palatable. They're hearing what they originally liked (1/2 way there), but now there's some different things going on and hopefully when all combined, it hooks them and they now like these other, less commercial, types of tunes. 

 

Ah, just a theory. 

Edited March 17, 2015 by Just1L

[MonoStone]

What's the 'KISS method'?

 

(Why do I feel like I've just asked a really stupid question?   )

[Just1L]

What's the 'KISS method'?

 

(Why do I feel like I've just asked a really stupid question?   )

 

LOL Keep It Simple Stupid

 

Not a stupid question at all … you even had one of the words figured out.

Edited March 17, 2015 by Just1L

[McnaughtonPark]

I've been trying to Keep It Simple and have found it's ridiculously difficult.  It's like the crazy man in the straight jacket has the key to the padded cell and keeps locking the Dr. out. 

 

I don't know any keys to success in writing a commercially viable song.  I know there is an entire market out there willing to pick my pockets bare in persuit of "the dream".   Perhaps 1 in a million get that big break?  I don't know the exact odds.  Question is, how many millions of dollars did the songwriting market realize in that one success story?  If you want to make money in songwriting, I'd suggest writing a book on how to do it, you'd have more success.

 

The odds of me becoming content with what I do are far better.  No financial rewards in it, but the thought that one day I might be happy with my own work seems like a pretty nice goal to write toward.

 

Stay hungry

 

Tom

[MonoStone]

What we need here...is some balance. It can't all be doooooooooooom... can it? I mean few things worthwhile are easy, but...

 

Success stories from people here?

[MonoStone]

Well, if you think you're writing pretty good songs but you think they're not songs others would want to record, then maybe to write songs you do think others might want to record you should be writing songs you think kind of suck.

 

It's a theory.

 

You're not called Sage for nothin....

[Guest]

• Do you want to be an artist or a songwriter?
• What do you think makes a song a “Pop” song?
• Do you think popular music is simple?
• Do you think melodic repetition is a bad thing?
• Do you think complicated music is better?
• Do you think the bulk of the songs here at SongStuff are more complex, more intricate, or more sophisticated than your average charting popular song?
• Do you think popular music beneath you? 
• Do you think you can succeed at anything you haven’t taken the time to understand?
• Do you think yourself a better writer than those who are “succeeding” at it?

[MonoStone]

 

• Do you want to be an artist or a songwriter?
• What do you think makes a song a “Pop” song?
• Do you think popular music is simple?
• Do you think melodic repetition is a bad thing?
• Do you think complicated music is better?
• Do you think the bulk of the songs here at SongStuff are more complex, more intricate, or more sophisticated than your average charting popular song?
• Do you think popular music beneath you? 
• Do you think you can succeed at anything you haven’t taken the time to understand?
• Do you think yourself a better writer than those who are “succeeding” at it?

 

 

Who is "you" in those questions?

 

'My' original point was (thinking out loud to Larry) that I didn't know if I could write a commercial song. I'm not sure I'm capable. Larry's original point (that I was replying to) was that he'd like to try.

 

...then we got onto a view from some that songwriters don't make any money anyway....

[Guest]

"You" is whoever is reading, at the exact moment they are reading...

 

[Just1L]

 

• Do you want to be an artist or a songwriter?
• What do you think makes a song a “Pop” song?
• Do you think popular music is simple?
• Do you think melodic repetition is a bad thing?
• Do you think complicated music is better?
• Do you think the bulk of the songs here at SongStuff are more complex, more intricate, or more sophisticated than your average charting popular song?
• Do you think popular music beneath you? 
• Do you think you can succeed at anything you haven’t taken the time to understand?
• Do you think yourself a better writer than those who are “succeeding” at it?

 

 

So what if I do … or don't.

 

All good questions. I assume you'll be back to explain further? I could answer them, but it wouldn't tell me anything I didn't already think. 

[Guest]

All good questions. I assume you'll be back to explain further? I could answer them, but it wouldn't tell me anything I didn't already think. 

 

Why do you call them good questions if they apparently present no value to you?

Edited March 17, 2015 by Skylark

[Just1L]

Why do you call them good questions if they apparently present no value to you?

 

Never said they didn't have value. They're like an "If" with no "Then". OK, for arguments sake, let's say I do think "some" popular music is beneath me. It doesn't mean I think all of it is, or that most of it is, or that it actually is beneath me in reality, it could be miles above me. In one respect, it's all above me because it's popular and has made money. In other respects I can't believe some songs actually make it to the radio. So that leaves me right where I was when I first read the question. If I do, then what???

Edited March 17, 2015 by Just1L

[Guest]

What is the purpose/intent of your questions?  Curiosity as to users' responses or to make some kind of point?

 

I sometimes ask questions as a way to get others to examine their own beliefs. Just a different phrasing might shine new light on something.

 

Never said they didn't have value. They're like an "If" with no "Then". OK, so yeah, let's say I do think "some" popular music is beneath me. It doesn't mean I think all of it is, or that most of it is, or that it actually is beneath me in reality, it could be miles above me. In one respect, it's all above me because it's popular and has made money. In other respects I can't believe some songs actually make it to the radio.

 

 

Well, I find my questions rather telling in effect.

 

So that leaves me right where I was when I first read the question. If I do, then what???

 

 

Is that a serious question? Are you looking for advice? (I would, but I'm reticent to give advice unless I'm asked.)

[Just1L]

Are you looking for advice? (I would, but I'm reticent to give advice unless I'm asked.)

 

No.

 

EDIT:

I didn't realize the post was meant to be taken as a case-by-case scenario, where the answers are different for different people.

Edited March 17, 2015 by Just1L

[Guest]

This is a bummer.  I think underneath the ambiguous intention of your questions, you seem to have insightful opinions to share for the betterment of the discussion.  It'd be great to read what your insights are vs. having to decipher them.

 

Hah! Yeah, Larry... That's what I have; Opinions. Are they insightful? I might say "somewhat" (and I'd always be willing to share them). But...

 

In my opinion, songwriters are by nature a sensitive bunch, and most really don't want to --or can't-- hear objective feedback about our "babies.".

 

It's a tough field, one that most of us ply in isolation, where we must rely on ourselves for everything. We're not accustomed to having others sticking their noses in our kitchens. [excuse the mixed metaphor] But part of the skill set of a successful writer must be to learn when to trust our intuitions over the advice of others, and when not. And from whom do we take it? And how much of it do we take? Anyway you slice it, it's voodoo. And that's just the creative part! The business presents an altogether different set of obstacles.

 

[MonoStone]

Well... I've never done it, but people do... So it must be possible to make a living from songwriting.

Not easy I'm sure. But if you're into it it's worth a try.... You don't need to give up a day job to try. But you might have to write songs all night.

We all write music for our own pleasure.... Maybe I'm wrong but I imagine successful writers get just as much pleasure from writing...plus the added pleasure of commercial success.

Maybe the questions are.... Can you enjoy writing in a style that might not usually be your cup of tea?....or... Maybe you don't have to? Isn't a great song just a great song? I mean can't any really great song just be a melody over a simple piano? And then IF you need to present it with a current sounding arrangement (do you need to?) isn't that a fun challenge?

[M57]

Well... I've never done it, but people do... So it must be possible to make a living from songwriting.

 

 

Who? Name one.  I'm going to guess that most of them are also playing out, playing in as studio musicians, or teaching, or are established "artists" (I hate that word - I cringe as I type it), and need to augment their income via those means (a lot).  We're talking about making a living, not just making some spare cash here, right?

 

As I recall, the way it use to work for composers/song-writers in the commercial business (like writing jingles, etc), writing the song was a ticket for being a musician on the recording, usually as a BV singer.  If you sounded like crap, they could record you whispering "Paul is dead" and they would play it backwards during a cymbal crash or something like that - just so you could get the singer's royalties.  OK, I'm making the "Paul is dead" part up.

 

From what I glean on other forums.. It's gotten worse.. There's no money in song-writing.

Edited March 18, 2015 by M57

[Guest]

Ok, clearly you're not going to explain the intention of your questions. 

 

 

Huh? I thought I did answer you, Larry. (below)

 

I sometimes ask questions as a way to get others to examine their own beliefs. Just a different phrasing might shine new light on something.

 

 

I'm not sure what songwriter sensitivity has to do with this particular thread either.  We're not asking for feedback on songs, just opinions on the topic that Dek posted.

 

OK, but I opted to pose a few questions instead. Hopefully a few got something out of it.

[Just1L]

Can you enjoy writing in a style that might not usually be your cup of tea?

 

I think this is an important key in it all.

 

• Do you want to be an artist or a songwriter? I would have answered YES. But the key to that question was the word or.

 

Writing commercial songs is a whole different kind of songwriting than donning your cap of creativity and digging deep to express the complex feelings you're trying to share through music. In one, you're writing for others, with the other you write for yourself and hope others will just like it. Or, alternatively, you're writing for yourself, with the hopes that others will like it and possibly, at some point, others would like it enough to become a commercial success. 

 

But if you're solely going the route of "Songwriting for a Living" (i.e. more like a job, but at least one where you know you're doing something you love), I would suggest looking into TAXI. I believe it's around $300/year but you get a lot of opportunities to submit your material to "legit" opportunities. They also have conferences and webinars on what they're looking for in songs and ways to craft your songs towards commercial opportunities. I have not joined, but I did enter my email address on their website. For that, I've received roughly 150 emails, most with opportunities to submit your songs. I cannot rely on the legitimacy of the site in general as I've never used them. I recall hearing others talk about it before and it seems to sound legit. I may pay to play one day, but I know my songs aren't up to the level needed recording wise yet and I need to wrap my head around writing more "non-creative" types of songs. I did one recently and regardless of the outcome, it did end up being a satisfying experience ... much similar to writing my own music, albeit not quite as cathartic. 

 

So, how much would that make you? I don't know. How much could YouTube videos make you? For some, they can make their living from it. Some make a good amount on TAXI (well, according to their website). Like Tom said above, you won't know if you don't try, and you'll never make anything if you don't try. Also, it depends on how much you currently make and if you'd be able to make that amount or more.

 

Randy

Edited March 18, 2015 by Just1L