Songwriting For A Living

[Guest]

Oh, you're gonna love this, Larry...

 

What is selling out? Who would you be selling out to? Or to whom would you NOT be selling out? What are you protecting and or preserving (like so much musical virginity)?

 

What artistic integrity are you talking about? You mean the integrity you have vs. Paul McCartney? Sting? Eric Clapton? How about Babyface? Pharell Williams? Diane Warren? Eminem? Lady Gaga? Elton John? At what point do you begin to have more artistic integrity than anyone I may list?

 

If you don't banish that thinking from your brain then --there's that almighty "then" someone said was AWOL a few posts ago-- I can pretty much ensure you'll stand no chance of making a living with your songwriting. How would you know anybody with integrity if they weren't also commercial/popular enough to capture your attention? Think about that.

[Just1L]

No matter what I write, it always ends up sounding like me, and me just ain't that 'commercially viable'.

 

Have you considered pronouncing your last name as "Cough"?   Sorry, thought I'd lighten it up a bit. 

[Guest]

No.

 

EDIT:

I didn't realize the post was meant to be taken as a case-by-case scenario, where the answers are different for different people.

 

I really just wanted to pose a few open-ended questions. There are no "right" answers and I never intended to post anything else about it. (Even though I did get pulled in little bit.) But no... It was just meant to maybe get anyone concerned to exercise a bit of introspection, self-examination about songwriting as a hobby vs. a profession.. I think it was slightly successful but... Nah!

 

Pssst... It's all Dek's fault.

[MonoStone]

I do feel kinda responsible ....

 

Group hug?

 

Love and peace man

[M57]

Get all your answers here..

 

http://www.ascap.com/expo

[Vantograde PR]

I'm always discouraged from listening to songwriters who write with explicit commercial aspirations. I've encountered a few on this site, and I can usually hear the willed conformity in their music. When you write for "the market," you aren't writing for anyone but money: so often, when people talk about making art "for a living," they begin shaping their ideas and intentions around what they think will make them money. Another approach to "popular songwriting" would be to write music that you believe people will enjoy or identify with. Songs written with this intention could also have commercial appeal, but the songwriter's intention would be to connect with a large audience through new ideas, not through market-based analysis of songwriting convention. To me, this is the true approach to writing "popular song."

 

Music has an intrinsic power. When we hear certain notes, textures, rhythms, etc., we feel certain ways and think certain things. As an artist, creating music is a thrill because you learn to employ traditional elements of music and to manipulate the music in ways unique to your own self. For me, the purpose of songwriting is to find the intersections between musical ideas and my own ideas, to discover feelings or ideas as I'm writing the song. When the time comes to share or perform, I believe that whatever power the song had over me during its creation can be conveyed to listeners who are willing to empathize.

 

As I said, I'm always discouraged from listening to songwriters who write with explicit commercial aspirations. These songs rarely have honest feeling to empathize with or a new idea worth trying to understand. Obviously, there are many songs with mixed (commercial/non-commercial) intentions, and Larry's song that spurred this thread is one such song. It sits at an interesting crossroads. I suppose my final opinion on the matter is this:

 

Make sure the music you write is powerful as music and lyrics, not as an economic engine.

 

E/S

[Mahesh]

My journey with songwriting started with me having no formal music education or knowledge and it was purely based on instinct and emotion. It still is.

 

Having said that, if I was required to write a song which is commercial and lets say "mainstream" for economic gain. I would do it. I wouldn't particularly fancy the kind of music that it is  (and I dunno if I have the ability to make commercial music )and I wouldn't consider it a part of my music journey either. Music is very intimate to me, it is an art that speaks to me more than anything. And I write songs that mean things to me. And I would want nothing more than to be successful (the definition of this will vary of course, but here let us say to make a living) by doing my music. But music is also a living that we are talking about. (and lets assume my music is not commercial enough. Not that I want it to be. But here, in this particular sentence, I'm simply assuming commercial = able to make living and that it is not related to the music )

 

I travel 5 f*cking hours everyday and sit in front of the computer and work with things I have no interest in; Regretting every moment not being able to be with my music; Taking the 'long walk' to the office so that my day doesn't start soon. I would love to do something with music instead. It is not my music, sure. It won't be my cup of tea, sure. But if I have the musical ability and knowledge to deliver something that is required by someone, let it be something mainstream and commercial, and I am being paid for it which will help me pay my bills, pay for my equipment and for my musical well being, I would pick that than this job, no second thoughts. 

 

Hopefully as I'm in this job, I'd be able to contribute and slide in my real music and maybe that'd very VERY VERY slowly start changing what mainstream really is. I know its a gazillion to none chances. But nothing wrong in having the heart in that direction. 

 

 

If you'd like to keep your music and your day job separate because you don't want to contaminate your art, that is fine. I have nothing to say for that and I've no knowledge or right to. But I personally can see with great clarity what my art is and what my ability to make this art can do for someone who requires it. 

 

When a whole industry has been created using music JUST to make money by people who don't know enough about music or when music doesn't mean much to them as compared to the money, I think a few honest musicians can really get in there and do something about it. (unless even they were only for the money)

 

It is a personal opinion.

[tomcollins]

had to chime in , to tempting

many people make good money "songwritting" most are unknown , but know for a fact a lot of them are listed in many many country songs . and also know most have a big house outside nashville, also know most are like us , they love to play , invent and write , some call it lucky while some say they worked hard for it , either way , they make good money at it !!

I really dont think anyone would complain if one of your songs went commercial and millions heard it , the pure fact that you did something millions of people enjoy to listen to , and then get a nice check for it , double bonus in my opinion.

dont think anyone sets out to be commercialized , as much as it is a path that opens for them .from their talents and love of playing .

not to say i wouldnt cringe if my kid came to me and said she wanted to be a musician and make a "living " from it . of course i would embrace but would do so shaking my head !

rock on 

[Guest]

Songwriting is a lot like brain surgery. Anyone can saw off the top of your head, but only a few will leave you a person with whom others would care to dine.

Edited March 18, 2015 by Skylark

[The S]

Well, here's my 0.2 cents on the subject.

 

Formerly a professional songwriter, my publishing company paid me a monthly salary, not much but enough for me to get by as a full-time hired songwriter for close to 10 years. A few times we tasted a tiny bit of success, and actually made some money, but mostly it was hard work for scraps, translated that means we got mostly album cuts, not the ever so important hits.

 

I worked 7 days a week, days and nights, for many years and hardly got by. I loved it most of the time but as the years went by, this is closer to -05, I chose to drop out of the business altogether, mainly because my love for the music itself had been absolutely destroyed by the commercial aspect of what I was doing. At first, it's great to be able to have your passion/hobby as a profession but eventually it becomes...well, work. It's inevitable. Don't get me wrong, I really don't have any problem with the commercial side of music, that's just a fun bonus when you do what you love. But when everyone, all the time, and everything is about money the fun and passion dies a slow and painful death. And everything and everyone around me, in the end, WAS about money and I ended up hating it. I'm sure if I had gotten rich doing it, it had probably changed my perspective slightly ;-) , but then again, we'll never know because that didn't happen. Hehe!

 

After I left the business It took me 2 years of total absence from music to pick up a guitar and actually enjoy it just for the sake of playing again. I still do and music is again, a total joy. =)

 

Just want to add, the songwriting was not ever actually about money, it was just too hard to block out the always present music business. They were literally inside your door at all times. If you succeed in keeping them outside, then good on ya and congrats, it's a helluva job!!! But I didn't! =)

 

So what's my verdict, well, here's the paradox: Todayj I have no intention to work as a professional songwriter ever again, but at the same time, I'm so happy I got the chance to do it for as long as I did.

 

Does that make any sense?

 

S

[McnaughtonPark]

Makes perfect sense to me S.

[Stova007]

I've met 1 or 2 people here in Nashville that have made a living by selling their songs…and they live a rather comfortable life. I've also met a lot of writers who try to sell/write mainstream music and haven't made a dime yet. I had the opportunity to see a very successful writer perform a few weeks back…he was one of the worst performers I've ever seen. Bad voice, bad guitar skills…but he wrote songs that other artists wanted to record and were radio hits, so kudos to him. He has a gift for writing songs that people want to hear on their radio.

 

Nothing wrong with writing songs for mainstream/commercial appeal. It takes a special talent to do that on a consistent basis, and it isn't for everyone. 

[MonoStone]

It's great to read a few positives... bound to be some downsides but it beats the *doooooooooooooooom

 

No doubt you have to have skills....

 

And specifically regarding writing for other artists - those who know, correct me if I'm wrong but I'm guessing you have to still put a lot of heart n soul into the writing, at the very least you have to love your craft... 

 

And no doubt it's a rocky road unless/until you get a big break, which is true for just about any creative profession....

 

... but still it's good to hear those positives so that anyone who wants to try doesn't think it's utterly pointless.

 

And just to quickly answer some replies about my point to Larry about not having to give up the day job - My point was that you either need to be extremely confident, crazy or in some way supported in order to just ditch the day job and sit writing songs all day from day one... It's sensible in any new venture to test the water, start small, work the long hours after work, and then make the transition if it looks like you have what it takes and it's going to pay. I'm not sure why anyone would think I meant work two jobs forever....

 

*read in Scottish accent

Edited March 19, 2015 by MonoStone

[tomcollins]

it is a talent most of us touch but never fully grab ,but like the lottery "gotta play to win ""!!

[scotsman89]

Hobosage

what you say is so true .as an old guy  pretty much given up on the radio.  all the male singers and most of the female . apart from the voice , and sometimes they even sound the same . the songs are pretty much repeat /repeat /repeat.  just my 2cents .

john

[MonoStone]

I'm enjoying this topic...even with the punch-ups

 

Regarding writing for other artists - I don't know what it takes, never done it, but it makes sense that presenting something to the best standard you can is the best plan, and presenting it in a current style (current, or cutting edge in whichever genre you're writing for...) must be a good idea. I know (or I'm told by a mate in 'the biznis') there's often a deliberate demand for 'something that sounds like xxxx' and established songwriters/producers receive briefs something like that, but I also think that songwriters writing pop will be following trends to some extent without needing to think about it and will just lean that way anyway. And maybe it's the end production that will tend to copycat more than the song sometimes. Maybe.

 

Kind of related - My closest friend has been writing library/production music for a few years, and that's an option too.... which obviously needs top notch production. And he spends his own money up-front on session guys to make it the best quality he can, and he's making from it. That's another way to make music for a living....but also not easy to get into and requires a lot of talent, and to be versatile. And that's definitely a producer role as much as a writer, and I think of that more as compositions than 'songs' on the whole since there's a lot of instrumental... but I'm throwing it into the mix here since it's still making music for a living and still composing music for a living. He does it all from home, not in a big studio (although he will rent or borrow one for a day to record a musician if needed, that generally still means something very basic), all mixed at home on a computer just as I do... and if you happen to be VERY talented on mulitple intruments or making music mainly electronic then I guess you don't need the session guys.

 

It's all possible. Not easy.

[Guest]

Adding an opinion on the matter of presenting the record… I don't think it's quite as dismal as some of us think. The reality is more toward the middle, that there is opportunity for simple piano/voice --or guitar/voice-- demos. Is it easy? No. But if easy is what you want, you are definitely pursuing the wrong dream.

 

Consider the Bell Curve… I’m paraphrasing here, but... 85% of anything is mediocre, 5% is absolutely brilliant, and the remaining 10% is positively wretched. (Insert your own preferred percentages if you like.) And it applies to everything; songwriters, A&R folk, record execs, guitarists, singers, firemen, surgeons, automobiles, software, restaurants, photographers, shoes, athletes, you name it… Most of whatever you're talking about is mediocre, with a bit of brilliance and a bit of dreck at each end. And that never changes. It's a constant! It's why we have the word mediocre, why we have the word excellent...

 

If you have written what I like to call an undeniable hit, then —providing you do something to get it heard— it will be discovered and it will get picked up. I don't even think it'd be that hard! There's just that one snag; Do you have an undeniable hit? The vast majority of songs --even if you're McCartney or Stevie-- won't be that, that's all there is to it. So... Would I feel confident walking into a publishing house with a piano/vocal demo? Sure I would... But I'd rather not. I/you/we want to catch a fish by using the widest net possible. Otherwise, it's like casting one line and one hook in a vast sea.

 

Another point to consider… As much as a strong demo can help you place a good song, a poor demo could hurt your chances. An excellent A&R person could hear past a lame production as much as he/she could hear beyond a 1+1 demo but… Odds are your song isn’t being heard by that A&R person.

 

A&R departments are not to blame for the pressure many of us feel to have highly polished/arranged demos, not any more than are the writers themselves. It's a natural development, and can be traced back decades. Even Lennon and McCarney demo’d their songs. And they were the artists! You obviously increase your chances to score a cover if you do the next guy's work for him/her. They'll love you for it! You'll become their favorite writer if you can deliver consistently solid songs that are also pre-produced.

 

Where --or how-- you see your music being used will be a factor, too (and the list of factors can be incredibly long).

 

Wrapping up, though... There are people out there with ears, people who can --and will be able to-- find a great song amid a sea of polished mediocrity. Really, the question is, Can you write it?

 

3¢

 

PS... Since Dek misses the fights... Here... 

Edited March 19, 2015 by Skylark

[The S]

Some advice for those of you that want to try and pitch your songs:

 

I've always put my heart into my songs, from mainstream pop to folkish ballads. The writing isn't much different between genres if you know what their core is, and no matter what genre you write, you're likely to go after the best possible result you can achieve at that given time. That's what I do. You simply can't write hit song after hit song if you don't love writing hit songs. Same goes for folk, country, indie, heavy metal etc, if you don't love the genre you write, you won't continuosly and successfully be able to write it. You can always get lucky but I'm talking about the long run. That's the songwriting part.

 

When aiming for commercial/sellable songs the big challenge is how you choose to produce your song, how will you present it to the world?

When working with record companies/artists, as some of you have already mentioned, the best way to get a good song to make the cut; copy their sound when you produce the song, and then find a session singer who sound very much alike the artist you're aiming at. That way, record companies and the artist themselves, don't have to break their backs trying to visualise themselves singing the song. They'll hear it instantly. It's worth the money paying for not only good vocals, but sellable vocals. The session singer must make the song shine but not outshine the artist. It's a fine line. We'd always go for the mainstream sounding voices over originality. That way the artist could not only hear themselves do the song, they could also hear themselves do a better job than the session singer. It's an ego thing, you can't go wrong! ;-)

 

Oh I might mention, both me and my studio mate back in the days were/are singers, both of us with more original sounding voices. But we didn't sing on our own stuff because of the voices we have. That's how important finding the right singer is if you want to pitch your songs.

 

Today, I write songs for myself, possible also my family and friends, and no one else. I sing and play on my own stuff and I can let a song go on for 10 minutes if I feel like it, or have a harmonica solo thrown in at any given time. If a song feels good to me even if it lacks a chorus, I'm ok with that, hit song or not I don't care. It's what I want to do, it's my creation and no one elses, and I'm perfectly fine with that. But you can not reason like that IF you want to pitch your songs to record companies or artists. That calls for a totally different mindset. That calls for adaptation and compromises. Just wanted to make that clear.

 

S

[MonoStone]

Some great posts here.... I'm soaking it all up even though I'm not (or wasn't) planning to write songs for the purpose of pitching to other artists (I'm tempted now, if only to get a real understanding of how tough it is). I'm not saying I've not thought about pitching songs I've written by the way, just that I've never tried to write one with that goal in mind when writing it....and the two things are quite different aren't they? Are they?

 

But one thing standing out to me, one thing that really excites me.... is the idea of the 'undeniable hit' that Skylark spoke of.

 

I just love that holy grail kind of idea. I get the point that it's not possible to bank on that.... and I'd starve if I banked on it... but I've always loved that idea of a song so good it can't be missed.

 

Whether you're writing as a recording artist OR for one, you have to feel good in your work as long as you're shooting for the moon. I can see why it would get anyone down if forced to compromise on that....

 

Not sure where I'm going with this point...maybe I'll return to it...

 

Oh and by the way all of you are wrong, I'm right, and I could have the lot of you with one hand behind my back!

[Mahesh]

 

If you have written what I like to call an undeniable hit, then —providing you do something to get it heard— it will be discovered and it will get picked up. I don't even think it'd be that hard! There's just that one snag; Do you have an undeniable hit? The vast majority of songs --even if you're McCartney or Stevie-- won't be that, that's all there is to it. So... Would I feel confident walking into a publishing house with a piano/vocal demo? Sure I would... But I'd rather not. I/you/we want to catch a fish by using the widest net possible. Otherwise, it's like casting one line and one hook in a vast sea.

 

 

When working with record companies/artists, as some of you have already mentioned, the best way to get a good song to make the cut; copy their sound when you produce the song, and then find a session singer who sound very much alike the artist you're aiming at. That way, record companies and the artist themselves, don't have to break their backs trying to visualise themselves singing the song. They'll hear it instantly.

 

 

I think these two things mentioned here has a lot going on with each other than most of us would expect.

 

I mean the 'Undeniably Hit Song' and 'Artist Singing It' equation. I've heard many songs by big artists which I've felt were just okay songs in terms of melody and songwriting but they did climb to the top of the charts because of the artist who recorded it.

 

I've also heard beautiful songs that I felt were undeniable hits but that didn't turn out that way.

 

The more and more I think about this, I feel that the general audience seem to judge music based on 'what the song or voice sounds like' . The industry sure seems to be going in that direction because they know this.

 

I have no idea where I'm going with this point. No frikkin idea. lol Meh