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Co-Writer Published By Major Who Does Not Want To Sign My Share In Copyright


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  • Noob

My co-writer has asked his publisher (a Major) to register works we created and they have, when i asked the publisher they declined not to sign my share of the copyrights at this time, i now have six songs registered with PRS showing my co-writer's publishing company under his name, and no publisher under my name. I have no idea what my co-writers deal is, except that it is exclusive with the major publisher, i'm guessing that it's for life of copyright and i have no reversion clause and no co writer agreement. Why would a major publisher only sign 50% of songs and decline the other 50% when they have accepted them into thier catalogue? anybody know ? and apart from writing no more with this co-writer can anyone offer me advice? I have not signed anything with my co-writer or the major, but i know a few publishers that would publish my share if i ask them. I am not sure what this game is can anybody advise me?

 

thanks

 

Phil

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Hi Phil, sorry to hear about this. I wish I could advise but will let some of the "bigger dogs" here give you some thoughts.

I see you haven't been on Songstuff long. I hope you can poke around a bit and maybe find some better co-writers! I am like you it would seem, in that I have morals and would never do that do someone I've worked so hard with. As a matter of fact, I would take any of my co-writers with me if we could just get the song in the right direction!

Hope to see you on the boards,

Best of luck,

Lisa

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  • Noob

Hi Phil, sorry to hear about this. I wish I could advise but will let some of the "bigger dogs" here give you some thoughts.

I see you haven't been on Songstuff long. I hope you can poke around a bit and maybe find some better co-writers! I am like you it would seem, in that I have morals and would never do that do someone I've worked so hard with. As a matter of fact, I would take any of my co-writers with me if we could just get the song in the right direction!

Hope to see you on the boards,

Best of luck,

Lisa

Hi Lisa, it's just so hard to get a break, my co-writer is a highly successful lyricist but hey without a melody it's a poem and you don't earn royalties from poetry. i can't see me letting this happen again like you i remain honest and not greedy i would share success with the people i care about. Perhaps we are just the few?

 

Thanks Lisa

 

Phil

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  • Noob

Hi Hobosage,

 

It is registerd by the major as 50% with the signed writer and i own my 50% I have no problem with that BUT as you say "What artist or other third party would want less than 100% of the song?" just means that the song is tied as far as i am concerned, and going nowhere and i have NO info on the reversion clause my co-writer has agreed it could well be life of copyright. Further I paid all recording costs, session singers etc etc. just to have a copyright sit in a catalouge that i am not part of? and cannot use without permission from a major company i am not signed to?

 

It's a lesson learnt, know what the deal is before you stert, no matter how famous your co-writer is.

 

thanks for your input, much appreciated. They have my co-writer as an exclusive deal, and will have a contract that says they will exploit his copyrights, that's why i am questioning why they would not want my share also? I can get another publisher to sign my share, because i have had many single song assignments but then who issues the "First Licence" I need thier permission and they need mine if anything is to happen as far as getting a cut. Probably best to just walk away a lesson learnt do you think?

 

my guess is he has to fulfill and supply a certain number of songs in each year, i just happened to give him six in one writing session. Everyones a winner except me?

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Um, from my point of view, if I understand it correctly, I see no wrong doing here. They've signed their share, which is 50%. That's a no brainer. Signing you is something else. A publishing company doesn't just sign writers like that you know. Signing somebody means a commitment from both sides. You need to provide them with good stuff, and they, on their end, have to work for you, pitch your songs etc. Maybe they have more than enough writers already? Maybe they're still unsure that you can give them what they want? That can all change you know depending on if you have good enough songs.

 

Most importantly, if they pitch the songs you did co-write and they happen to end up with an artist, and let's say that/those songs do well. You are in a great situation because then you can go to a publishing company and tell them, hey I got a hit song which is unpublished, how much would you give me for getting the rights for it? That's not a bad situation believe me. What I'm saying is, keep your cool and let that publishing company and your ex co-writer friend do the work for you.

 

I have friends that are unsigned and content with that. It only means that if you write the songs yourself (100%) nobody will work for you. But if you co-write with a signed writer, voila, you will get a free ride and might get lucky. Just make sure you do get signed when that happens. Otherwise no one will help you get your money.

 

Oh and one other thing, publishing companies as all others of course would want 100% of every song if possible. But as common as it is with co-writing, it's not that big a deal if they only get 50%. If they believe the you and your song/songs are good enough, 50% of something profitable is far better then nothing at all. Don't sweat it!

 

I hope it turns out good for you!

 

Cheers,

 

S

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  • Noob

Hi S

 

Sounds great...what if they do nothing with the songs....? they obviously like them enough to take 50% into thier catalogue......but you are right i will do as they do and just sit tight doing nothing, i did have an Artist ready to release four of the songs, but i'll write new songs and release them instead.

 

Many years ago i had a similar situation which i did not find out about until almost 9 years too late, and when i did i phoned BUG music (the publisher at the time, a previous song previous co-writer) they told me where to go! " said not our problem"   i never saw any money from the two albums the song appeared on, PRS/MCPS would not backdate and my share was lost forever......Ce La Vie.....

 

Thanks S

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Hey

Just a few quick words, building on the very valid points raised by Hobo and The S...

I too think there is nothing wrong, per se, although there is a lesson there about having discussions arrangements, and contracts in place before the co-write.... Especially when working with someone already under contract. All the more so considering you recorded the demo. You might be able to be picky about recording costs and use of the recording, but fundamentally that might not be in your best interests. Next time sort out the recording costs up front, and the rights involved. Not very nice of them to do this behind the scenes (as it were) but the underlying practice is common. IE, two writers, each with their own publisher or publishing arrangement. It can be a great thing, or it can be a complete waste of time.

Publishers only earn if someone uses the song. They may take a few approaches:

*They add the song to their catalog with no intention to pitch it, IE they plan to get a free ride from your efforts to place the song.

*They add the song to their catalog with a strong intention to push the song, in which case you get a free ride. (Would you be complaining about it that way around?)

*You both add the song to your respective catalog (or your publishers) and you both push to place it. This can be great in some ways, but also a nightmare... No exclusive usage deals unless your publisher and their publisher come to an agreement.

*They have no intention of doing anything with it and this is simply a way to protect their interests, after all the co-writer is under an exclusive agreement

*They actually intend to have new music written for the words by a music writer already in their stable

Having learnt the lesson of what to do first next time (professionals will not mind getting business out the road, they are all used to dealing with it, even when uncomfortable at times, it is necessary), I would focus on constructive discussion with your co-writer firstly and then their publisher directly (not via the co-writer). The discussion with the co-writer is to get their understanding of the situation... Has this been done before with them and the publisher, if so what did they do then? What was their approach? Do they have an idea of the publisher's intention? Having squeezed them for info, now armed with a better expectation, talk to the publisher.

Don't expect to be signed to them. Approach it as if you have interest from another publisher or two, (without misrepresenting, IE be vague but upbeat) and you are shopping it around looking for a non-exclusive deal, or a deal limited to just that song or songs, and you wanted to know what they were intending doing with the song and if there are any issues with you seeking to get it published or even self-published etc. be as constructive and open as you can. A good working relationship is necessary to progress this with a good outcome all round. At least, that is what I would do. You never know... If they like the song and they think they could have a good working relationship with you, they may be willing to sign a contract for just those songs, or maybe more. I still wouldn't get my hopes up!

How you progress this depends on your aspirations and intentions, a bit of homework in the publisher in question (talking to the co-writer may just help give you an insight). Be friendly until you definitely, absolutely cannot be friendly to them. Defensive or aggressive just puts walls up.

Others may disagree with this approach, so if you can see the wisdom in it, sound others out on a constructive way forward that doesn't end with your songs sitting on a shelf, or you gaining nothing from the adventure.

:) just my two cents.

Cheers

John

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Oh, and at least for now, I would register the songs immediately with PRS and the recordings with MCPS with you as the co-writer and you as the publisher (the reciprocal of their registration), and you as the sole owner of the recording regarding MCPS. You can always amend it and or license a publisher to act on your behalf in a co-publishing arrangement.

I would also register them with the US copyright office naming the co-writer too.

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> when i asked the publisher they declined not to sign my share of the copyrights at this time <
So they signed? And the copyright at that? Not the respective shares of royalties?

 

Like most countries the UK (and Ireland) distinguishes licenses from copyright - other than the US. Publishers register works -licenses - that they manage on behalf of their cutomers. They serve as intermediaries. For their service their cut is usually half of the royalties. If one party is not represented by them they obviously cannot take their cut from his share but only from those parties they actually represent. The song is normally registered by the publisher(s) stating the shares of all parties involved (any party can register works).


This is an excerpt from the German database (without the percentages because it is from the public view)

 

BIRR, DIETER 00059686425 Komponist

BIRR, DIETER 00059686425 Textdichter

HAINER, LUKAS 00635449040 Textdichter

BMG RIGHTS MANAGEMENT GMBH 00567521924 Originalverlag

ELEPHANTEN EDITION HARTMUT KRECH UND MARK NISSEN GBR 00482726531 Originalverlag

SONY/ATV MUSIC PUBLISHING (GERMANY) GMBH 00262990443 Originalverlag

 

Here one composer (Mr. Birr) shares the royalties with two lyricists (himself yet again, but also some Mr. Hainer) and three publishers who represent him or both persons to some extend.
In short: everything goes ;-)

 

> Further I paid all recording costs, session singers etc etc. just to have a copyright sit in a catalouge that i am not part of? <
Productions costs have nothing to do with licensing matters and royalties. In priciple they are part of the musicians(!) expenses that is normally covered up front by their label.

> and cannot use without permission from a major company i am not signed to? <
PROs like PRS license all registered songs for a nominal fee so everybody can use all registered songs. That is what they are there for. The only possible disadvantage in your case may be that the publisher involved grab their share of the royalties. But as far as I can make out this doesn't even apply to your own share but only that of your partner. So, where is the problem?

 

Have fun,
Bernd

Edited by Bernd
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Hi S

 

Sounds great...what if they do nothing with the songs....? they obviously like them enough to take 50% into thier catalogue......but you are right i will do as they do and just sit tight doing nothing

 

No that's not what I'm saying. I'm simply stating that you might get lucky and they, by working hard, might make that cut for you. But do not think for a second I'm telling you to sit tight and do nothing?!?! You're the rightful owner of 50% of that work. I expect you, on your end, to work your @ss off to get that song cut, if not, you should sign a publishing deal so a publishing company can do it for you.

 

Look at it the other way around, do you think your co-writer friend is happy with someone who is not willing to work 24/7 to get that song cut?

 

If you have been robbed out of your share earlier, as it sounds, I'm sorry to hear that, but I strongly suggest that you work towards getting a publishing deal so you have someone looking out for your interests and watching your back. It's hard making it out there as a songwriter without a publishing company that's all I'm saying.

 

All the best,

 

S

 

Edit to add: The few of my friends who doesn't have a publishing deal, with a network founded on years of work in the business, they still work day and night trying to get their songs out there, and they'd all be dead if they only relied on crossing fingers and holding their breaths. ;-)

 

Edit 2: Raunchpr, Hehe, I just re-read my post and if I came off as angry I want to assure you I am not. Just trying to help in a business I know from experience can be brutal. Sorry if I did. =)

Edited by The S
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  • Noob

Hi Bernd & S, the only problem is I have to pay for a 50% mechanical licence upfront, if i want to use the song that in itself is not a big deal normally i would be exempt as I am the creator. Also I have been activly promoting the two of the songs and have gotten them to two major artists without any help, so i am doing all the work at present and paying all the costs on behalf of my co-writer and his publisher as well as helping him to fulfill his contractual obligation to supply songs under his contract, and i'm upset because for no money paid to me they could have given me single song assignments, i don't expect them to sign me but they could have shown some appreciation for my work. A lyric is a lyric without a melody but with a melody it's a song, and not i have no control or say in any assignments they make of the 50% they now control. Not nice is how i feel i have been treated, am i wrong to feel like this? It is hard to get a cut and i am trying.

 

Thanks guys for listening to my rant!

I have a meeting tomorrow with the Chairman of a PRO who is a friend, he will advise me how to handle this.

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> Hi Bernd & S, the only problem is I have to pay for a 50% mechanical licence upfront, if i want to use the song that in itself is not a big deal normally i would be exempt as I am the creator. <

In Germany you have to pay license fees whenever you produce a registered song - if it's your own you will receive as royalties what you paid up front. No problem (except you#d be losing the share that the publisher gets), no big deal.

 

>Also I have been activly promoting the two of the songs and have gotten them to two major artists without any help, so i am doing all the work at present and paying all the costs on behalf of my co-writer and his publisher ...>

correct. That's why I do NOT work with publishers (I do not care what my partners - the composers - do, may they split their shares - I'll keep mine).

 

> they could have shown some appreciation for my work. <

Sure. But you are expecting a lot. It's business, after all, isn't it? At least that is how publishers look at things.

BTW, you will probably get your share when royalties are distributed. Check your PRO's schedules when that will be. I'll receive my royalties for a CD that's been on the market since June in January next year. Royalties for live performances are handed out in April. But that's GEMA in Germany. Different PROs may handle that differently.

> I have a meeting tomorrow with the Chairman of a PRO who is a friend, he will advise me how to handle this. <
That's the way to go about it!

Good luck!
Bernd
 

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  • 1 year later...

I can't see any issues really here. I have co-written several songs with an artist who is signed with a major label and it is the same circumstance - his share of the publishing is signed over to the record/publishing company and I am in control of my share to do with what I please. The thing to understand is that the record company has a relationship with the other writer/artist and this relationship has no bearing on you - they have no obligation to offer you a publishing contract in order to get control of your publishing rights. In my case it works out just fine and I actually do better than the artist: I co-write a song with the artist. The artist records the song on his album. The record company pays me my mechanical royalties directly and I get it all without having to share it with anybody! It's a win win situation.

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Hey April, don't worry about how old the post is. You have some great info/perspective on this. You've successfully refreshed the post and maybe helped some other members!

Thanks

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  • 2 years later...

Hey, this is rather common.   It is to your benefit really.   It might give you leverage at some point for your own deal.   I'm sure you could get a publisher, but like I said ..at the moment it is to your advantage.     I had a friend that went the other direction ..and it cost them in the long run thousands of dollars.     Why allow them 50% of your side of the song for nothing?   I'm sure they have in someway paid for the other side share.   You get enough of those, and you can leverage them....especially if one gets cut.

 

David

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