Line 6 Firehawk FX: Line 6 Redhead Stepchild?

[TapperMike]

Recently I got an email regarding end of year closeout deals from Line 6.  I followed the link and saw some really good deals especially for Firehawk FX.  

 

Firehawk FX is basically POD HD 500 Pro with a streamlined on-board interface.  Instead deep control access has to be done via iOS, Android or PC (via bluetooth) technology.  It makes sense that you could reduce the price by putting deep editing on an app....and beable to easily edit via.

 

While the unit does have quite a number of classic rock and metal presets, as well as a vast effects and amp models it's still not on par with what is available to pod or helix users.  What's more the line6 custom tone library doesn't even list Firehawk ...http://line6.com/customtone/

 

It maybe that because Yamaha may be pushing for more Helix as it was a cooperative development between Yamaha's techs and Line6 techs instead of Firehawk which was of pure Line6 design.  Yamaha has focused on ground up circuit by circuit modeling which is more labor intense then standard HD modeling of L6.  This means that while Helix and THR modeling may be more accurate there are less amp/effect models to choose from.   

 

 

While the amp modeling is very very close in the above demo.  It's not near as accurate as say.... Helix or Kemper.  Then again ...further on I don't think they matched Mic for virtual mic which does affect the final output.

 

While not anytime in the near future I am debating on which multi-effect processor to buy.  With Line6 focusing mostly on helix as the go-to pedal board and pod as being number 2 they may be letting firehawk go.  I may pick one up.  It may be the perfect compliment to my Variax Standard as it has a vdi in for editing / storing variax settings in the effects unit.

[Rudi]

Good demo. Nicely laid out unit. Massive improvement over using the POD HD400.

[starise]

I want to like this. I like what it is capable of doing. For a newb, it can still be potentially complicated. The video was good. It was just over 30 min. It was the fast overview. To get deeper might take literally hours for a picky player. Probably easier than the HD500. I doubt I would use the iphone functions. 

 

My preference would be to step on a switch and get a sound as opposed to going though pages via foot switch. This is the way things have gone. It needs to be set up according to user preferences. 

 

Maybe someone who uses individual stomp boxes could chime in. I keep looking for that 'deal' where an old guitar player is going into the home and want to part with his stomp box collection as a whole. I haven't been that lucky yet. They always want to sell them individually and for almost what they paid back in 1980.

 

Individual boxes would be my first preference. Electric guitar taking aback seat to other interests means I don't want to spend any money. OK, I'm cheap..aren't we all to some extent? 

 

Here's what I recently picked up. I've been wanting one. I don't know why. It was a factory second, a blemished product. What do I care if it has a scratch? I'll let you know how it works out. It's also a direct recording interface for guitar. Nice. Zoom G3 

 

 

 

[starise]

I didn't intend to steal or sidetrack this thread. I said i would let you know how the zoom worked out. I went through al the patches last week. IMO at least as good as the HD500 I have. Sometimes you'll get a box that might be slightly inferior but it has superior programming. I tend to like the factory patches in the Zoom better overall. I'm not a hard rocker, so maybe your results will vary. Two or three of the factory patches made this box worth buying for me. Average cost of buying individual analog pedals would have been WAY higher.

[TapperMike]

I'm happy for you.

 

 

When I go I want to go all the way which is why I'd choose a firehawk.  Regardless of "style" there is something their for everyone.  I tend to be very specific about how close I can recreate a given classic setup and firehawk is best suited for that with it's endless array of amp and effects models.    

 

Oddly my current playing eschews all of that.  I pull up one favorite amp model with one favorite setting and one guitar then just play. It's all about what happens with my fingers while playing rather than tone carving.  Which is a good thing as I get to play more.

[starise]

I understand. It only makes sense if you have the variax setup already. I think I threw the zoom out there for people who might not have invested in a Variax and who are looking for an inexpensive alternative. Zoom has a new one too the G3r I think. I like the LCD better on the old one.

 

For some unknown reason the sounds as programmed in my HD500 don't get my dopamine flowing. The sounds are pretty much the same in the HD500x with a few minor tweaks and I suspect close cousins to the sounds in the new firehawk. And this is the thing I'm starting to see with Line 6. They are always putting new product out there and the new product doesn't necessarily reflect an advance in the sounds. After the firehawk it'll be something else and on it goes. IOW I don't see buying into the new as buying into the better.With some programming it can shine though.

 

If I were going to tie my phone into a guitar setup , a person could use use something like amplitube for iPhone or iPad.

 

http://www.ikmultimedia.com/products/cat-view.php?C=family-amplitube

 

https://www.native-instruments.com/en/products/komplete/guitar/guitar-rig-5-pro/

 

Those are killer programs too. Amplitube and Guitar rig are some of the most powerful computer/ smart phone related programs out there, especially if you own the paks that go along with amplitube. People think they need a PC to use it. All you need is an iphone with some memory and the inexpensive interface. If you like to use your phone for music this is another way to go. In my case I tried it and didn't stick with it. It was easier to have something that looks like hardware. Knobs and switches.

 

When it comes right down to it most players will have a favorite setup or two and that's usually it. The guitar amp sim category is one of the few areas where I think the sounds have morphed beyond what could have been done with hardware. Kind of it's own thing now. It doesn't need to be a thing that sounds like something else. It can be a totally new sound.

 

I'm no longer loyal to any manufacturer. I'm looking for a bargain way to add the most bang to my setup. No promises here, if I get the chance I'll try and record some of the sounds in the zoom for anyone who is interested.Maybe we can compare some of the sounds. Possibly we could see how much the sounds in the HD500 have changed compared to Firehawk. If someone else has the gear and a way to make a good recording let us hear it.

 

 

[TapperMike]

Well here's the thing.  The 500x put in the same effects and amps however many were remodeled using Yamaha technology  That was before Yamaha had fully taken over the operation....  Which can be seen in Helix as that is the new flagship.  They don't want to cut the cord just yet with the Pod HD series but they also want to promote Helix technology.

 

Yamaha had been working on an entire new approach to modeling.  That being modeling everything in the entire chain that makes up the amp sound individually.  This (depending on what side you take it from) Has pushed Helix beyond it's nearest competitors (Fractal, Kemper)  In older Line6 amp modelling you couldn't swap out virtual tubes. Like you can with Helix / THR 100

 

 

Helix doesn't have the sheer volume of amp types that one would find in a Pod 500 amp simply because they opted for better modelling control.  In 2.0 they have added more amp models among other.  They are doing this slowly and it's much more work to go through each amp and model every point of connection from the input to the end of a chain.   As well they are working on modeling (point to point again) many custom modded amps.   

 

[starise]

Whenever a company comes out with a new product the dust hasn't settled. It's the new toy. It's the latest thing. Companies have a need to keep producing product in order to make money. It wouldn't make sense to come out with yet another guitar pedal board and not have some kind of an edge over the competition. In one sense this kind of competition ends up in creating a better product.  They said, "How can we make an amp modeler that is better than the others?"

 

When you get past the marketing hype the answer seems to be a more refined modeling concept. They've taken the same technology and added a few more variables, such as changing the tubes.

 

My question would be, how does this actually sound better in a mix compared to the others? I listened to the videos and I'm not overly impressed that it's really much better or if it is better it isn't head and shoulders better. I would compare it to 16 bit .vs 24 bit audio. How many people can really tell the difference? Especially in a mix?

Maybe there is a larger difference than I realize. I've also heard some very impressive sounds coming from older amp sim gear. 

 

The only way to stay out of planned obsolescence is to buy the real deal. There's a reason they emulate old amps. I'm not saying it's a sin to buy Helix or anything else, just don't be surprised if in two more years your pedal hasn't been superseded by something else. Just as likely, don't be surprised if they drop support for said product within 5 years.

And this is the frustrating part of owning these boxes for me.

 

 

[TapperMike]

Better is always a relative term.   How does a modeled Fender Deluxe sound better than an actual one?  If it sounds too different is it different in a good way or a bad way?   For a long time I gigged with only a Traynor YBA that had been modified.  It was a great bass amp and a great guitar amp.  It was all the amp tone I needed as I didn't need the amp to be something else.  And yet had it not been modded I would have never used it as a guitar amp.   

 

 

So again I'll repeat myself with regards to circuitry modeling.  Not all amps have the same eq. Even though most have bass/middle/treble.

When I want to "capture" the sound of a twin I want it's eq to react like those on the original model.  Not like something that has the same three knobs but the knobs react differently.   This is what line6 / yamaha does that no other amp modeling company does.  It maps the entire line and all the changes and models each mapped point.  Rather than say... Kempler which only models what it hears at the end of the chain.   I've even shown the video where one set of tubs is virtually swapped out by another.   If you pay attention to small details then it matters to you.  If you feel those small details don't matter or can't recognize them then it doesn't matter to you and no amount of reason will change that.

 

With regards to "real deal"  Those real deals often break down and require repair.  Especially if you run a Class A amplifier on a regular basis.  When they break down you need to either fix or replace them.   The last amp tech in Michigan who did nothing but repair amps for a living has retired.  He'd go to guitar stores far and wide (his shop was a 5 hour drive from my home near Detroit.  Collect the amps from local businesses and... when things were slow you might get your amp back in three weeks.   So you might have to go out searching for ...another same model amp.  Which by the way also come and go.  Until recently if your sound relied on a Supro Amp.  Good luck.  Supro's went out of business many many years back.  The name was only recently aquired by a new group trying to produce them.   

 

Also there are those pesky price, weight, space and levels issues to contend with.   If you really really want to sound like Hendrix through his stack.

https://reverb.com/item/4207984-marshall-super-100jh-jimi-hendrix-signature-stag-2005

Then you have to go out and find stomp box emulations of his rig back then because many simply are not sold anymore.  Although quite a number of stomp box makers have the JH stamp on them and are to a lesser or greater degree what he would have used at the time.

Don't forget to get a reverse headstock strat just to keep everything as close as possible.   Congratulations you may indeed have the Hendrix Rig if you can afford it and if you can play somewhere that the cops aren't banging down the doors because you have to play it loud for it to sound loud.  With that being said and done Expect to be playing a lot of Hendrix and little of anything  that doesn't fit into the category of the gear you have. 

 

I collect guitars (well I used to) Sometimes I buy them for their sheer uniqueness.  Sometimes I buy them because I'm chasing a specific sound that I can't get from another guitar.   90 percent of that stopped after I got a Yamaha Variax Standard.  Not every guitar in the world.  One that fits my hands so I can play it.    There are more guitars that I feel uncomfortable playing then guitars I feel comfortable playing.  There is no point in me every owning a Gretsch as I'll never get comfortable with the neck.  Not today, not tomorrow not 10 years from now.  I like Gretsch tone,  Chet Atkins, Eddie Cochran, Bow Wow Wow, Brian Setzer,  George Harrison.   I've played em all but never on an actual Gretsch.  Those Gretsch models included in my Variax do a fine job as closely recreating the tone as possible on an instrument I can play.  Some very specific guitar tones like...hmmm Claptons Blackie I'll never be able to recreate exactly in workbench because it has a limited number of pickups included.  Yes that and lack of guitar models I continue to rag about when it comes to Variax guitars.    Maybe someday they'll add more.   Hell I have no less than 150  virtual keyboards on my computer(piano's ep's clavinets, harpsicords, organs, not to mention all the synth recreations (moog, prophet, juno, etc)  Try fitting those into your home or taking to a gig. 

 

 

 

 

 

[starise]

17 hours ago, TapperMike said:

Better is always a relative term.   How does a modeled Fender Deluxe sound better than an actual one?  If it sounds too different is it different in a good way or a bad way?   For a long time I gigged with only a Traynor YBA that had been modified.  It was a great bass amp and a great guitar amp.  It was all the amp tone I needed as I didn't need the amp to be something else.  And yet had it not been modded I would have never used it as a guitar amp.   

My favorite most true to real Fender sound so far is this- If a person doesn't want to invest in dedicated hardware this is hard to beat. 

 

http://www.soundonsound.com/news/ik-announce-fender-collection-2-amplitube

 

You mentioned Jimi Hendrix. Have you tried this?

 

http://www.ikmultimedia.com/products/cat-view.php?C=family-at-hendrix

 

I have both of these. The only thing missing from the Jimi Hendrix pak that keeps it from sounding ultra realistic is Jimi.

 

The HD500 gets really close. It has the same basic tech as the Helix in that you can " choke" the tubes just like with a real amp. IOW the sim is reactive to your playing as opposed to simply playing a preset. Higher amp volume drives the simulated tubes just like real tubes. Adjusting the volume and tone on the guitar also influences the way the amp responds. Some of the  amp sims have added circuitry noise for realism which I think is funny. Aren't we trying to get away from that? No different than adding key noises to a piano sample set. Before you know it you'll have a sample of your next door neighbor shouting at you to turn it the f down

 

17 hours ago, TapperMike said:

With regards to "real deal"  Those real deals often break down and require repair.

 

 If you own a Fender Twin and you like the way it sounds it would probably be less expensive to mic it up or use a wattage soaker so you can drive it without the neighbors calling the cops. If I played out a lot I would likely use a real amp. The lowest ended Helix starts at over 1200.00 US. That's a lot of dough for something that will eventually be phased out and replaced with something else.Probably within 5 years or less.

TBH you can get some really good deals on both new and used guitar amps of all kinds. A more recent design will have the basic vibe of an older amp but won't break down like you infer will happen frequently. In fact, they might be more reliable than the Helix over the long haul. Heck I have an old Behringer and even THAT amp is working fine after 10 years. Don't go looking for a 1965 Mustang, buy the new mustang!  Unless you're one of those players who likes to play hundreds of different sounds, you'll probably be happy with just a good setup that has a few of the sounds you like. I don't think Jimi ever really thought a lot about his sound as related to his gear, he simply played that axe like no other.

 

I'm not anti-Helix or anti- Line 6. I just don't always see the purpose in changing equipment simply because it's new. I think there will be spin off from other manufacturers. They will also adopt more adaptive, responsive tech that competes favorably with Helix probably for less money. Everything has a context. Most of what I need to do is done very well with what I have. I'll be one of those guys with an outdated Variax 10 years from now if I don't sell it. If it sounded good in 2017 why would it not sound good in 2020?  Somewhere in 2022 there will be an old Helix in a pawn shop gathering dust or better yet collecting dust in some guitarists closet. He will have filed it under that " I planned to use it more" category. " I liked it, but almost never used it". Such is the way with collected stuff. The guy might die and someone offers the Helix to his nephew. " I don't want that thing".

[TapperMike]

Have you ever seen a Tone King video on youtube?

 

Look at all those amps behind him.   He has much more that are not in view.  When you work with one older classic amp you had better love the tone in all situations  and you had better face up to the fact that it's not going to sound like other amps.   If you can live with one amp and be happy with that.... Good for you.    If you are a tone afficianado then you will require more than one amp.  This guy is a serious collector of amps guitars and effects.  In most of his videos while reviewing guitars he opts for Line 6 hardware to present the tone.   And again think for a minute about gigging live.   How many amps do you really want to bring to a gig.  Would you have enough room for them.  Are you passionate about recreating tone?

 

Helix is the be all end all at this time in history for amp/pedal/guitar emulation.   No one comes even close.   Sorry but it's true.  Sure there are amps with emulations that do some interesting things but they lack authentic tone through out the spectrum... Even Kemper.

 

Helix is not my first choice.  Firehawk is.  Firehawk is affordable.  Helix though does show that Line 6 is advancing the technology.  And it's raising the bar for all other amp / pedal emulators be they in hardware or plugin format.  

 

As I've stated many times in the past.  I like going to shows.  I do as much as I can.  As I sit back in the audience I take note of the gear used on stage.  The money earners who do covers are very very demanding on recreating actual tone.  I see them come I see them go.  I see them year after year after year.  I see the equipment change.  Guys who used to bring 4 guitars to a show now show up with a variax.  Guys who used to show up with two amps now just run through a power monitor.  Guys who used to have traditional stomp box boards now just run Pod HD500x, or Firehawk or Helix.

 

 

[starise]

You clearly are sold on Helix. I can see why you like it and the Firehawk. 

 

Just a few side notes. Most pro acts I see are using one kind of amp and a whole slew of analog pedals to get various other sounds. Sometimes it has more to do with paid advertising. The amp maker is paying the artist to use brand X or Y. In fact, I suspect that a lot of what we see is driven by this. Same as seeing Nike signs at the soccer tournament. 

I'm sure a few of them are using things like Kemper or Helix patched in. For the most part though, they are still using old school pedals. Why? I have no idea. I'm sure at some point Yamaha will have the Helix on stage as a paid endorsement or part of a touring deal. Maybe that tide is turning in favor of sims. Whenever I look at any televised concert on TV and the camera man gets a shot at the guitarist and his rig. There's a whole bunch of pedals. 

 

Check this link- http://www.musicradar.com/news/guitars/in-pictures-36-pro-guitarist-pedalboards-630194

 

I know they do lots of things for appearance, so maybe some of those are merely props. Just sayin'

 

As I said, it feels good for me to be free of entanglement to any manufacturer. I like choice. I've bought a lot of line 6 gear in the past. Their gear is ok. I'm sure the Helix will be ok. I can't say I think it's the be all end all.

 

Here's another angle to consider. If a guitarist wants a different sound they probably wouldn't rely totally on a Helix or a Firehawk. VERY few users will work much at programming and even if they do the results will be similar with the same gear. Cutting edge guitarists realize this and they mix it up. 

 

The potential is incredible no matter what you do.

[TapperMike]

I had to come back to this thread...

 

We'll have to agree to disagree on what pro's use.  I've known Jennifer Batten since the 90's She toured with Michael Jackson for 10 years and is often the opening act for Jeff Beck.  She has consistently run either rack mount Digitech multi effect units or floor unit.  I still go out every week to live concerts in the park.  No longer the one nearest me as I work on Thursday nights.  I've been doing that for the past 16 years now.  in 9 out of 10 cases it's always a Line 6 floor board and in 7 out of 10 it's usually a tech 21 power engine or a line 6 FRFR

 

Also... oddly I'm not going to buy the firehawk after all.

I need something battery powered.  I've been busking in parks with my battery powered Yamaha THR-C  and while it's a fine little amp modeller the effects section has much to be desired.  Originally I thought about a line 6 pocket pod.  Pocket pods are not compatible with pod farm.  And while Line6 does have an extensive user library of presets they are no where close to bean pods of previous generations with regards to effects emulations.  As well the pocket pod cannot connect to a remote floor board. so if you want to switch your preset mid song forget it as it's essentially a glorified rockman.  (Which I actually used during the 80's)

 

The Zoom G1Xon Multi Effects Pedal with Expression Pedal is a lesser of evils.  As it's a floor board with step up/down it allows you to organize your effects in line with a setlist/song list.  It does run on batteries (most important) It does have a myriad of Amp and effects sims up to 5 at a time.  Unlike other higher priced zoom units it does not come with software editing. (which is a pia) 

There appears to be many patches (which you have to dial in manually) for the product at http://guitarpatches.com

 

With regards to boutique effects.  Sure they sound amazing.  They are amazing one trick pony status symbols that appeared on pop/rock/jazz records never.  Not all distortion effects are the same.  A MXR Distortion Plus is not an ibanex TS9 is not a fuzz face is not a  ProCo Rat is not a Boss DS1.  I seek the most authentic tone recreation I can get.  Not the newest fancy box one.  Sure authentic sound always happens with the players performance first and foremost.  But after that having the right tool for the right job makes all the difference.

[starise]

FWIW I know a long time guitar player who gigs regularly using a Zoom he highly recommended it. I think this led me to look at what they offered. For some reason Zoom isn't marketed heavily around these parts and I looked at them like a "lesser" brand compared to others. That was a bad call on my part.

 

I had never considered the fact that it takes batteries. Makes a lot of sense really so long as they are fully charged. My ears liked a lot of the patches in the G3.

[TapperMike]

Well it arrived today.  Sounds awesome but the screen is not functioning properly.  I've repackaged it and will be sending it back tomorrow.

This was a "new in box" sale from an otherwise reputable seller.  I'm thoroughly disgusted right now.  I know a lot of b stock slips through the cracks for all brands.  But I'm used to dealers who take the time to see if it functions correctly before selling it.

 

 

[starise]

That is one option . You should get full factory warranty for it as if it were brand new. You may need to register it and jump through a few hoops. I seldom have any problems with b stock. I once did get a new unit through the factory this way.

[TapperMike]

It's going back.  I'm getting a full refund.  And with that money I'm taking it to sweetwater.  Which has the same unit with warranty for the same price though shipping is free and delivery is faster.

 

[starise]

Tough to go wrong with sweetwater.

[TapperMike]

I love Sweetwater, It's where I got my Variax (among other things)  I'm within their one day shipping range (Indiana, Michigan)  They are always competitively priced with a huge catalog.  Mostly I like the sweets from sweetwater.  If you have kids and you're all excited about getting a box with stuff. They are too even when it's not for them.  The sweets are nice to offset that with.  I don't have kids, I have coworkers.  Generally I give them out to waitresses or the manager when I show up for work after a delivery.

[TapperMike]

Tim,  found out something interesting today thought you would like to know about.

 

There is a zoom community that have created their own independent app for zoom guitar products.

http://www.zoompatches.com/forum/

 

Once you install the app you can instantly drag patches from the forum directly into the app which then sends it to your unit.  As well you can cross model download patches.  The only exception is when your model may not have the effect / amp sim as did the source model.

I just found it and I'm having a blast.