RobAsh15

What does it mean to succeed?

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The philosophical- Why does a beautiful flower boom where no one can see it?

 

The practical- It's ok not to care sometimes, just don't stop caring whether you don't care or not.. 

 

 

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Whatever the case, David has made... is making it unavoidably clear that this is a private fugue.

 

If I lived close by, could carry my guitar and an amp to his house, I might extend another offer to help. This slump David is in is proprietary, as such things often are. Thus, our collective ability to offer either support or help, especially in an online environment, is limited at best.

 

Feel better, David. As they say in Istanbul;

 

 

 

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Just as an observation, I agree with Randy's earlier post that essentially, success = setting a goal, and reaching it.
 
That is quite different from the perception of generally "being successful". There is a general perception that being successful = making a load of money at whatever it is you do. These days I would possibly add "while investing the minimum effort and cash to achieve it".
 
As artists, on one level we may measure success as money, fame and notoriety, but we also measure it artistically, or by the cultural impact that we make. For most here only the middle one has likely been achieved. Maybe.
 
However being successful comes down to repeatedly setting goals and achieving them. To make it meaningful, those goals also have to have a degree of difficulty, and be at least reasonably ambitious for you as an individual. For "recognition" they also have to be meaningful and reasonably ambitious for other people too.
 
Another observation. The flip side. Failure. The feeling of failure (the definition of not achieving success.) Different people react differently. Self deprecation, blame (it's existence, and it's acceptance). Musicians and writers can react very differently to what they perceive as their failure. Most turn it externally, but many feel it internally. ie they may blame circumstances etc but at the end of the day they still feel it as something that they didn't achieve... and that brings me to a last related observation.
 
Excuses. Oh so many many bands and artists over the years, including myself at times, use excuses to deflect that sense of failure... even to the point that they don't take part, citing a million and one reasons. For example, they failed to send demos away, or release a song in the best way because if something else is at fault, their music can in their minds not be at fault.
 
After all, how can you fail if you don't really take part?

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3 minutes ago, john said:

Just as an observation, I agree with Randy's earlier post that essentially, success = setting a goal, and reaching it.

 

When I got back into music 3? 4? years ago...my first goal was to prove to myself that I could make songs that people I respect in music would appreciate, to prove I could do it without a band to lean on. I reckon I made the goal, being honest. 

 

What's next?... get people I don't know anything about, who don't write songs, to like my songs and adore me...  well that's weirdly much harder... and that's what most people think of as success in music. And the more I think about it, the less important that is... 

 

I listen to my own songs all the time...I'm my own super-fan! I've made it! :) I'm a rock star! 

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lol Dek

 

Weirdly, building a fanbase has little to do with music. Good music is a prerequisit, almost a given. But there are loads of great musicians out there, and a few less great, that manage to get a degree of success.

 

The missing piece of the puzzle, the one I regularly see is omited from people's game plans, is fan engagement. Or at least their notion of fan engagement has holes in it you could drive a fleet of buses through.

 

Don't get me wrong, music can play a part, of course it can. Hype plays a bigger part. Mechanisms to suppport growing a fanbase also help. Social media posts that aren't spammy in feel, or banal in nature. Coordination of approach across all platforms, a thought out image... music is just a part of the overall picture.

 

You were right of course that you need to get people you don't know to hear and like your music.... and that process usually starts well before they hear and like your music. It starts with the one key ingredient I rarely see amateurs or even many indie pros use.

 

Anticipation

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1 hour ago, RobAsh15 said:

If I lived close by, could carry my guitar and an amp to his house, I might extend another offer to help. This slump David is in is proprietary, as such things often are. Thus, our collective ability to offer either support or help, especially in an online environment, is limited at best.

 

I did 42 songs and instrumentals last year.  So far in less than two months this year I've kept pace and have done 7 songs.   I'm not in any slump.  I wish I were though, because that would mean I wasn't so bored. :) 

Edited by HoboSage

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1 hour ago, john said:

It starts with the one key ingredient I rarely see amateurs or even many indie pros use.

 

Anticipation

 

Yeah... I reckon if I don't post another song on Soundcloud in the next 3 weeks ... but Tweet that I'm going to do something even more brilliant than the last... Fans will be knocking my door down ;) 

 

... Done it before, said it before too sorry, I know what it is to create a buzz, get the cool people talking, get the marketing done, sell out the gig... 

 

My post had nothing to do with me wanting to find 'fans' though (been through that phase)... If I'm not gigging then I'm not finding fans, you have to really put yourself out and about... and I won't be going on YouTube to do the YouTube thing either. What I said wasn't a complaint at all... it really wasn't and still isn't in what I say below.

 

Wasn't planning on getting back into this conversation but... I stand by what I've said before...again not as a complaint, no bitterness or whatever, purely what I think is fact -  If you're not putting a show on, and a really amazing show so that people are actually paying attention, you're not gonna get far. Live show or YouTube madness, same thing in that respect. If you're not prepared to be on stage, PERFORM, forget about it... What you're talking about is creating a product, and in music when you're trying to become known, a big part of that product is performance. 

 

I think it's easy to over-simplify... Having AN image means nothing if it's the wrong image, tweeting about it means nothing if you've got no one to Tweet to! If anyone is shooting for 'success' as a music artist...well that involves PERFORMANCE...get out there performing. Or be happy with a very small to non-existent following, or just be happy to be making music. Ok maybe in some small niche genres you can be a big fish in a small pond and might make music that doesn't even work live... but on the whole.... got to perform... Currently, I don't! And unless I get a band together, which would be fun but unlikely, I won't be performing. Anyone who thinks they can become even a minor success (making a living) as a music artist in most genres without performing and knocking people's socks off is...loopy :) (smiley face allows me to say stuff :)  ) .... Anyone disagrees, show me examples.

 

EDIT - To clarify... I'm talking about success as THE artist, with fans. 

Edited by MonoStone
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22 minutes ago, john said:

Anticipation

 

Ah yes, Stage 5. For us, at this level, on this site, I think we do experience anticipation but it is fleeting. For those of use still mired in the early stages and not taking it to the next level, I think it is that time when we feel we're ready to show the song to the world, and looking forward to what people have to say. It mixes with excitement. For me, and I'm sure others, right before that song is posted there are many things that go through the mind. Everything from "how will people like it", to "I hope it's good enough" to "I hope it doesn't get slammed" to the oft felt, but never admitted, "what if someone hears it, really likes it and wants to either use it, or have us play it/sign us somewhere". (I now not everyone feels that way but I suspect there are some that do, but wouldn't come out and say it. For those that have no desire to get that kind of recognition, your success has been reached. You want nothing more … Or do you?)

 

Back to Anticipation. This anticipation is fulfilled when they hear the good comments about it (hopefully) or when they get some not so good comments. I call it "Quasi-fullfillment" because in almost every single case, when it's all said and done, unless something more becomes of it we only feel semi-fullfilled based on our early anticipation. Which leads to Emptiness which in turn makes us try to find an answer. The easiest option is Self Doubt. "What did I do wrong?" "What was wrong with the song?" "Why don't people like it?", "Why do only guys respond to my songs?" (that's one for me), etc… More than likely this leads to the realization that either 1) everybody's an idiot or 2) maybe I didn't do good enough. And when you think you did your best and start questioning it, it can lead to Self Doubt, Self Pity and then Depression. At that point most, myself included, get over all that and try again … back to Stage 1. But, and this is a big but, there is a chance that maybe the song was good enough, it's just that this particular site may not be the best vehicle to launch your career, and it certainly shouldn't be your only vehicle. That's when you gotta take it to the next level with really and truly getting your songs out there to be heard. And that doesn't mean only posting it on your FB or Souncloud page. That's where the really hard work comes in because you're really not doing what you'd like to be doing, which is writing and playing songs, but it's a must. 

 

The main thing you have to figure out is "What does success mean to me?" A lot of people say they just want a lot of people to hear their songs. Which is great in and of itself, but why? What's the difference between 10 people liking your songs or 1,000 people? What does it give you that makes having more listeners so important? Do you want to hear the comments from them? Just have people say the like your stuff? Because I have a feeling the only difference between having 10 people say they like your songs and 1000 people say it is that it takes longer to get to the Emptiness stage aiming for 1000. 

 

Read more in my new book "Typing While I'm Thinking"

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13 minutes ago, MonoStone said:

Anyone who thinks they can become even a minor success (making a living) as a music artist in most genres without performing and knocking people's socks off is...loopy :) (smiley face allows me to say stuff :)  ) .... Anyone disagrees, show me examples.

 

First I'll say I agree.

 

There may be one way but I've never tried it, don't know anyone who has, and don't truly know how legit it is. TAXI. I made an account once but never paid. I do still get the emails for the songs they are looking for though. For every single person that doesn't want to perform, but wants to make a living, this "could" be a good option. But it requires the songwriter to be more of a "hit maker" than a "from the gut" songwriter. Find what they're looking for, study examples, and make your own attempt. You still go through a lot of the regular stages of songwriting but I do believe if you got a song used, and got paid for it, you would feel some sort of sense of accomplishment. More so than when we simply post a song here and you find people like it and over time it drops down to oblivion.

Edited by Just1L

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6 minutes ago, Just1L said:

 

There may be one way but I've never tried it, don't know anyone who has, and don't truly know how legit it is. TAXI. I made an account once but never paid. I do still get the emails for the songs they are looking for though. For every single person that doesn't want to perform, but wants to make a living, this "could" be a good option. But it requires the songwriter to be more of a "hit maker" than a "from the gut" songwriter. Find what they're looking for, study examples, and make your own attempt. You still go through a lot of the regular stages of songwriting but I do believe if you got a song used, and got paid for it, you would feel some sort of sense of accomplishment. More so than when we simply post a song here and you find people like it and over time it drops down to oblivion.

Sorry Randy, I should have been more clear.

 

I'm talking about as an artist in terms of...ummm...not sure what the right way to separate them is but... What I'm talking about is someone who wants to be the 'star', even if that doesn't mean mega-star, the artist.... Whereas what you're talking about is things like writing for others, or writing production/library music, pitching songs, getting syncs, maybe composing for tv/film/whatever... and I agree, that's a much more likely route to find success and requires no live performance.

I aimed my comment at the former 'type' because John was talking about image, so I assumed we were talking about that type....since you can sit at home in your underpants forever as the latter type. 

 

EDIT - OK even for the latter type... having a photo of you looking very muso probably helps. 

Edited by MonoStone

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16 minutes ago, MonoStone said:

Sorry Randy, I should have been more clear.

 

I'm talking about as an artist in terms of...ummm...not sure what the right way to separate them is but... What I'm talking about is someone who wants to be the 'star', even if that doesn't mean mega-star, the artist.... Whereas what you're talking about is things like writing for others, or writing production/library music, pitching songs, getting syncs, maybe composing for tv/film/whatever... and I agree, that's a much more likely route to find success and requires no live performance.

I aimed my comment at the former 'type' because John was talking about image, so I assumed we were talking about that type....since you can sit at home in your underpants forever as the latter type. 

 

EDIT - OK even for the latter type... having a photo of you looking very muso probably helps. 

 

Gotcha. I do 100% agree about needing to be a performer. And that is more than likely a big hangup for a lot of people, myself included. I played on stage one song with a band back in college at a bar. I've always been deathly terrified of playing in front of others. I still won't even record my vocals at home unless everyone in the house is gone. Although the past few Thanksgivings I have played some of my songs for the 25 or so people we have over. I will say playing on Thanksgiving has given me the feeling that I can actually do it and get over the fear. My biggest hangups though are time and family. I know my kids won't be around home forever and I hate the thought of being away from them when I could be at home doing something with them. So it's not really a hangup as much as a choice, because I love it.

Edited by Just1L
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1 hour ago, HoboSage said:

 

I did 42 songs and instrumentals last year.  So far in less than two months this year I've kept pace and have done 7 songs.   I'm not in any slump.  I wish I were though, because that would mean I wasn't so bored. :) 

 

We have the same problem, but at opposite spectrums You have too much time, I have too little.

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5 minutes ago, Just1L said:

I know my kids won't be around home forever and I hate the thought of being away from them when I could be at home doing something with them. So it's not really a hangup as much as a choice, because I love it.

 

Yep, I agree on that. It's a full on thing... 

 

I'm not scared of performing with a band, well not enough to put me off, done it and sure I still could. But for me, solo performance would just sound crap or else be largely backing track based and that would feel crap. And lonely as hell! Much more fun in a band. Respect to anyone performing solo!

 

Oh...plus I'm knockin on a bit and not delusional 

Edited by MonoStone
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It may feel crap, but I've seen some performances of new artists these days that almost 100% use backing tracks. They spin, raise their fist, and then fancy pants their way over to a button and push it like they're blowing up a hillside with dynamite. It's kind of comical when you really know what they're doing, and how easy it is. Of course they did do the work to originally create the song. The key is they make it look good and make it look like they're doing more than they really are and having fun. There is a certain stage I get to when mixing a tune which I actually find highly enjoyable, even though what I'm doing is essentially what they're doing. When I get my tracks laid down, various ones, multiple guitars, maybe 2 drum tracks or so with different beats, etc… I listen through it and mute and unmute things, lower volume here and there and so on. It's how I determine if it's going to sound good and once I complete that, I go and actually cut parts or change volume/pan levels, etc… It feels like I'm some sort of DJ that is actually "performing" the songs, when I'm really just clicking a button or so. I envision that's what you and I could do. Trigger the next instrument, etc.. and mainly the only thing I'd really be doing is singing. Then, when I think of actually going onstage and doing that, I think I would feel like a con man or farce. Could be though that's the new way to do it and I'm just a sucker for making things harder than I should.

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8 minutes ago, Just1L said:

fancy pants their way over to a button and push it like they're blowing up a hillside with dynamite. It's kind of comical when you really know what they're doing, and how easy it is. Of course they did do the work to originally create the song

 

Haha, yeah well to be honest...I have no issue with it, and of course it works especially well in EDM. I could easily become that artist if presented with a huge budget for a huge show, really put on something big, with ready made fans... but in that case I'd rather spend on pro backing musicians. In fact that's what I'm missing... give me a band of superbly talented pro musicians, loads of them all doing my bidding but better than me, and a big stage, and I'll jump right into it ;)  

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5 minutes ago, MonoStone said:

 

Haha, yeah well to be honest...I have no issue with it, and of course it works especially well in EDM. I could easily become that artist if presented with a huge budget for a huge show, really put on something big, with ready made fans... but in that case I'd rather spend on pro backing musicians. In fact that's what I'm missing... give me a band of superbly talented pro musicians, loads of them all doing my bidding but better than me, and a big stage, and I'll jump right into it ;)  

 

100% agree. I've thought the exact same thing. I did toy with the idea of getting a looper and trying to do a song all on my own but I always go to "I need a band, with musicians much better than me and I'll jump right in."

 

Funny but good opportunity may be presenting itself to me. Quick version: a guy I know around here from Cub Scouts/Boy Scouts called me on Monday. He remembered me saying I played guitar years ago. He went to high school and is friends with the former drummer and co-founder of the band The Urge. Not sure if you've heard of them but they had a big presence in the 90s on MTV and the like. Well this former drummer quit the band back in the mid-90s to pursue a family. Right before they got huge. Well, he's ready to get back into it and wants to play some thumping hard rock. I haven't talked to him but I did send him my soundcloud link to see what he thinks. We may not play any of my songs at all but he believes he can get us to open up for the Urge when the come to play here at the Pageant. A venue around 1,500 or so. I'd love to do one of my songs to see what the crowd reaction would be, but even if I don't, it'd be an experience I desperately need to see if 1) I like it and 2) I'm good enough to do it. Plus, I think I'd get some cash out of it. Fingers Crossed. Knock on Wood. Find a four-leaf clover. Wish upon a star.

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This is a good topic - I have had this conversation recently with John, as I have no inclination to have my face on the cover of a song, or go out and play gigs. I just want to create music and put it out there, hoping someone will like it. I have wanted to do this for a very long time, but procrastination is my friend at times. One of my bucket list things is to create an album, get it produced and mastered properly. It would mean I've used my own money to do this, but it is something I want to do.

 

Now, although I say I will never get up on stage and do a gig... I would never say never if the right opportunity came up, but again like you guys, it would have to be with a band and I really don't want to be doing cover versions, but original songs. I don't mind singing cover versions, but it does just feel like karaoke which ever way you look at it.

 

I've watched a lot of videos of the solo performers and how they do it and everything apart from a couple of parts of the song, are all on loops, which they play with either a Maschine or Push (Abelton) or Akai - and I have to say, they do it really well. Jake Garret and Ed Shearan do this and if you haven't heard of him (if you haven't go and listen to some of his stuff it's excellent - especially Carousel), East India Youth.

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Growing an audience takes several components. Performing certainly is a massive component to decide to forgo. Can you build fans without performance, yes, but it is like choosing to fight with your arms tied behind your backs. Normally only taken on by those with a massive budgets for radio saturation. Remember "Bros"? Their first gig was after 3 or 4 singles and album at Wembley. Obviously way beyond the reach of home musicians, just pointing out that given millions of a budget and unlimited connections you too can bypass performance :P lol Nowadays some use TV talent shows, not with any expectation of winning, but with the aim of raising their profile, though most of those it is their profile as a live act they are raising.

 

Even local bands playing in bars and clubs have an image, have fans too, who can regard them with just as much devotion as bigger bands.

 

The fact remains ALL these things are important, but the ingredients most missed, including by performing bands, are any real notion of fan engagement and building anticipation. Gigging is a fairly obvious way to build fans. At no point did I suggest that anyone would recruit more fans of your next song by making a tweet. Indeed such naivity isnt that far off a common misunderstanding.

 

Nor did I think your point was made bitterly, Dek. I don't think your point and my point s are mutually exclusive, nor did I make a claim that performance was not desirable or advisable. :) You mention your age and delusional.... tbh even were you 18, the odds are so stacked against you regarding fame it is ridiculous. Any of us stands a better chance of winning the lottery. Age certainly adds additional constraints on likely markets. If big time fame is your goal, I would take good odds on disappointment. But we aren't talking big time fame here. We are talking success.

 

Gigs are generally not overlooked or passed on by bands, though their importance is by home musicians. Indeed, gigs are often a band's first big goal.

 

Doing nothing because there's "no real point", isn't that close to falling into the "can't fail if you don't take part" category? Sure be realistic, but if you want something I see no harm in working towards it, as long as you have realistic expectations. I think for many home artists who are scared to test their material, self conscious or a million other reasons, an excuse is what it is, at least until they can overcome a crisis of confidence or realise the perfect wave isn't going to arrive. As for us older home musicians who have been there, done it, bought the tee shirt, we can still be scared, forgetful of how important things are, full of self doubt or kidding ourselves on about our own motivations, or another million reasons, most of which I have probably suffered from at some point.

 

Still, I think you can build a fan base. Even to the point of being able to earn a living across a number of income streams. Will that replace your current wage? I have no idea, probably not for a long time if at all. Will it be an easy journey? Unlikely. Can you make a living? Yes, it is possible, not dead certain.

 

I don't consider this to be a discussion about becoming famous, but then that would not be my personal goal. I would think having a growing following would be an important measure of success for any artist?

 

As to Youtube, it is a performance option. It could be used as a substitute to a degree, but better as another string to your bow. As could live streaming, but no matter what aspects of fan engagement you cut off for personal preference or perceived limitation, or personal taste, every cut further limits options in a competitive market.

 

Currently social media is largely misused by bands who believe fan engagement means a mixture of spam and posting for no reason. 

 

There is no golden ticket. it is a bit unrealistic to think any one post or even thread would capture every aspect of such a wide ranging issue, so there is plenty room to build upon what has been said so far, and plenty for future topics :) 

 

Good chat so far. :)

 

 

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It also depends on genre. I seem to remember a grandmother DJ who did dance remixes and DJed in many clubs, taken to the heart of the dance scene. Sure, she did dj gigs, but she was far older than average and didn't think she had a live career, until she did.

 

Look at Calvin Harris. £40k for a night DJing in Ibiza. You might not recognise it as a gig. He turns up with a laptop with all his music on it and live mixes his tracks. He's got it knocked off for touring lol no gear to shift! The point is, he makes his music much like any musician making electronic music, but because of the expectations of his genre, and the  connections he has developed, he can do live work.

 

Not quie the same but one of the Brit award nominees for breakthrough acts, Stormzy, still hasn't released an album. He built his reputation on a couple of EPs and 3 or 4 singles since 2010, but mainly on his YouTube channel. Not bad.

 

Ofcourse then there is Mister Bieber. It wasn't his live gigging that took him to fame in 2008, it was his YouTube channel. Likewise, back while Adele was still in high school in 2006 (same school Amy Winehouse went to I think), a friend posted Adele’s demo on Myspace. PSY. An old guy in K-Pop, but it was bought views, likes and shares that caused the sensation that cataulted him into the news, Souljaboy went viral with this:

 

 

and launched his career

 

Sean ingston on MySpace and stubborness:

 

 

There are plenty more. You might not like their music, but live performance was not their main route to success.

 

It should be said, what was undoubtedly a factor was the size of their list of followers. The music industry currency is follower lists. If you aint got fans, you wont be taken seriously by the industry or press and media. Performance is a great way to build that initial list, but it is not the only way.

 

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I already said that YouTube performance was the same as live performance in this respect... It's all performance... It's all putting yourself on stage, whether that stage is in front of a local crowd or a global crowd.

 

And of course any online platform similar to YouTube counts. What I'm talking about is performing for an audience visually...being the star... And if it's on youtube etc then talking to your crowd... Putting yourself out there almost like live....not just putting up a music vid, that alone doesn't count unless you feature heavily in it yourself visually playing up to camera. 

 

I mean look at the examples posted...these guys are dancing for you, talking to you, singing to you, and in much similar way to performing on stage rather than just hiding behind the lighting etc in a music vid. They playing to their audience. Talking to their audience. Being the stars. How clear did I have to be? ;)  

Edited by MonoStone

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I mean I'm reading quickly but looks like the replies to my challenge prove my point. You have to be willing to perform on stage... Youtube or whatever can be the stage as I said, as long as you use it as such. 

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In a sense, you just gotta make people want to party with you.

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2 minutes ago, Just1L said:

In a sense, you just gotta make people want to party with you.

Now your talking music! 

:)

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While I of course agree that performing live in front of a webcam at home for a video you post on Youtube is a recording of a bona fide live performance and is a good way to garner YouTube fans, performing in front of your webcam at home is not at all like performing on an real stage in an actual venue directly front of a real live audience.  It's not at all like that.  It's more like singing in the shower.  Hmmm.  There's an idea for a video.

Edited by HoboSage

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10 minutes ago, Just1L said:

In a sense, you just gotta make people want to party with you.

 

Damn you always seem to sum it up in few words! Yes!

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Just now, HoboSage said:

While I of course agree that performing live in front of a webcam at home for a video you post on Youtube is a recording of a bona fide live performance and is the good way to garner YouTube fans, performing in front of your webcam at home is not at all like performing on an real stage in an actual venue directly front of a real live audience.  It's not at all like that.  It's more like singing in the shower.  Hmmm.  There's an idea for a video.

 

No it's not the same, but the way things work today...it can get the same kind of result or better. More people watching monkey dance for them free on YouTube...

 

Depends what stuff you're playing too. And whether you've got enough speed. 

 

Hobo singing in the shower... weirdly would probably work, but sorry I don't think I could watch ;)

 

All that said... after seeing your winamp type visuals video, I went looking for some visualization plugins (which one did you use?) and noticed that some trippy EDM visualization videos are getting loads of views on YouTube... I suppose because a lot of people are sat watching YouTube trippin out of their heads (this was confirmed by several comments I read). So trippy music + trippy vid = views too... once you've got noticed.  

 

 

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LOL  I'd hire some super-hot gal and she'd be enjoying herself in the shower while lip syncing to my tune.  A million views guaranteed!

 

I'll do a whole series of such music videos.  I'll be the Hugh Hefner of indie music Youtube videos!!!

Edited by HoboSage

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6 minutes ago, HoboSage said:

LOL  I'd hire some super-hot gal and she'd be enjoying herself in the shower while lip syncing to my tune.  A million views guaranteed!

 

I'll do a whole series of such music videos.  I'll be the Hugh Hefner of indie music Youtube videos!!!

Are you getting inspired?

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12 minutes ago, HoboSage said:

LOL  I'd hire some super-hot gal and she'd be enjoying herself in the shower while lip syncing to my tune.  A million views guaranteed!

 

Ok yep that'll work but... for the perfect vid -

 

1. Do some speed and introduce it

2. Show your dog doing something stupid

3. Say ok guys let's go spy on my hot girlfriend singing in the shower

4. Do your shower idea peeping Tom style

5. Do some more speed, tell everyone how awesome they are and to subscribe, whilst the hot girl smacks you round the head

EDIT - 6. leave a 20 minute visualization vid running at the end for anyone on mushrooms. Cut in almost subliminal frames of you wearing a melted rubber mask, whilst dancing in your underwear.

 

Edited by MonoStone

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3 hours ago, MonoStone said:

 How clear did I have to be?

 

Clear about what Dek?

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