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Rob Ash

What does it mean to succeed?

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Ray888    158
20 minutes ago, symphonious7 said:

Now that I look at your avatar I think you've gone from senile to YODA lmao  ok I'll quit derailing sorry lol

 

I would have been a major artist if I didn't look like that lol. My audiences weren't to keen on hearing the Oink Oink song twelve times in a row :D

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Richard Tracey    250
12 minutes ago, Ray888 said:

 

So was I referring to members music and my description of a facebook page was intended to describe what other are doing and that Songstuff could help members promote their music if members were willing to back it up with their time and money. Maybe I wasn't clear enough in that particular post but It should have been clear if you had read my earlier posts and replies leading up to it.

 

John and I were talking about this a few weeks back and we had a conversation with a couple of the other admin last week and we are thinking about promoting the members music (with their agreement of course) and using the Facebook page to do this. The only criteria may be how finished or polished the song is, but we didn't manage to speak about the finer details. I am going to speak to John tomorrow if we get a minute, so will mention it again.

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Ray888    158
11 minutes ago, Richard Tracey said:

 

John and I were talking about this a few weeks back and we had a conversation with a couple of the other admin last week and we are thinking about promoting the members music (with their agreement of course) and using the Facebook page to do this. The only criteria may be how finished or polished the song is, but we didn't manage to speak about the finer details. I am going to speak to John tomorrow if we get a minute, so will mention it again.

 

Sounds good. If Songstuff promotes music on facebook It would be great but it would cost money for Songstuff to promote their page in order to target  and attract the general public to pay to download songs. That promotion and marketing fund would have to come from somewhere so I would suggest either it be taken from percentage of sales or a set charge to songstuff for each promotion depending on what feels the most comfortable.

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Rob Ash    476

 

 

On 7/12/2017 at 11:58 AM, Ray888 said:

It's important to understand that majors are only interested in one thing (Money).

 

I was going to chime in with exactly this point. The record labels, production companies and promoters care for nothing, except money. The purpose of chaining new talent to a label is for the purpose of having total control over that artist's work, whether it be the songs they record, or the performances they put on. Even today, young artists give up almost all control over what they create and when and where they perform.

 

Back in the 70's 80's and 90's, the usual; gambit was a "three record deal"... which sounded like an incredible opportunity to a group of young kids just hoping to get out of their small home towns. The truth of the matter is that more than half of all careers in music never go as far as three records. So, effectively, this gave control over a new artist's career to the record label. In house producers would always "look" at a n artist's ideas. If a young singer or group could make great songs, they'd be allowed to. To do otherwise would be foolish. But the control... thew decision making ability, always stayed with the label during that first contract.

 

When I was making my play, we knew all of this. While out playing our guts out week after week, we'd occasionally run into a scout, or a producer. They go to clubs to find bands, after all. Or used to anyway. And most were usually willing to be pretty forthright about how things worked. Why not be? They knew they had us all the short and curlys. Doing things on an independent basis was incredibly difficult then, even if you had lots of money, which most bands did not.

 

As far as today? It's all a mess, on many levels. I tend to think a whole bunch of angry, petulant, anal retentive old bastards have to die off before we will see any real change in the music biz. I also don't know what shape it will all take, but I do believe this: if the labels don't stop trying to maintain total control over new talent, the music industry will end up only ever appealing to a younger and younger crowd. Anyone over the age of about 27-30 years of age is already seeking their entertainment, to an ever growing extent, from other sources.

 

Plastic performers and canned personalities mostly hold little to no appeal to anyone who is even marginally grown up.

 

 

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starise    366
30 minutes ago, Rob Ash said:

tend to think a whole bunch of angry, petulant, anal retentive old bastards have to die off before we will see any real change in the music biz. I

 

Be careful with that. This is us you're talking about :D

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Ray888    158

Robs 100% correct about the control that record labels have over their artists.

 

 

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symphonious7    117
11 hours ago, Ray888 said:

 

I would have been a major artist if I didn't look like that lol. My audiences weren't to keen on hearing the Oink Oink song twelve times in a row :D

That mental image got way too vivid for me and I laughed way too hard at it lmaoooooo

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starise    366
18 hours ago, tunesmithth said:

I have a simple suggestion. ;)

Discussions like this are all too common on music forums like Songstuff.

While there's certainly no harm in rehashing the same ol' questions, these discussion rarely if ever yield any any tangable result.

On one side, we have folks who believe that financial opportunities exist for independent artists in the digital word. On the other side, we have folks who don't.

 

So...here's my suggestion.

Those who believe that opportunity exists should put their money where their mouth is...do it!

Put your stuff out there, do your level best to independently promote it AND THEN return to this thread and share the results of your efforts.

Real world results are incredibly hard to argue with...unless of course, you're Donald Trump :rolleyes:

Did you actually make money?

Add up every dime that you spent to make it happen (digital tracking codes, promotional expenses, artwork, taxes, fees paid to royalty collection entities, CD production costs, mastering costs, mixing costs, new equipment purchases) ...subtract that amount from the grand total of what you took-in, then tell us if you made money, or lost money.

 

Several of you have already taken steps toward releasing your material for sale.

I imagine other members would benefit greatly from the sharing of your results.

 

Tom

 

I like the premise of this idea a whole lot Tom. I think some of the reason I can see the potential for success is because I have a few friends who have done it and are doing it. Do they share what they do and exactly how they do it? No, not usually. Why? I can only venture a guess. One such guess might have to do with competition, signed agreements and job protection. Give away all the secrets and paying clients and eventually someone will take your job.

 

These guys all wear a lot of hats. They have taken diversification to the the next level. They follow through. These are doers, not thinkers. Most of them are also engineers who pull in cash that way. Their clients don't use them because of their personalities for the most part, though they are great people and well liked. They are well educated in solving a myriad of problems fast and effectively. They do good work. You could throw almost anything at them and they will soon have a solution for it.

 

In looking at them from the outside I can see that this translates into multiple cash streams. They do a lot of stuff in a lot of different ways, but at the end of the day they get to do a lot of what they like to do.

 

There are plenty of people who can't play a lick of music who have capitalized on a situation and made money. They might sign artists to agreements and make a compilation album. They might make very little on that but they have dozens of other irons in the fire. Look at all the Christmas albums coming out of the woodwork around the holidays.

 

Many musicians are "out there" compared to the business types and this makes us look like easy pickin's. Those who excel have the traits of both and they are magicians at diversification and networking..

 

At the end of the day the whole reason anyone buys anything seldom has anything to do with US. It isn't about US. It's about THEM. Serve THEM well and you might get something for doing that. 

 

If a person's idea of success is to make music for a living , you'll need a lot of energy, passion, stubbornness, a lot of out of the box ideas. You will need to learn when  it's not a good idea to relay information .You'll need  plenty of ideas that make it to completion. You will fail plenty, but you won't ever quit.....ever.

 

 

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Rob Ash    476

 

 

On 7/14/2017 at 8:02 AM, starise said:
On 7/13/2017 at 1:05 PM, tunesmithth said:

I have a simple suggestion. ;)

Discussions like this are all too common on music forums like Songstuff.

While there's certainly no harm in rehashing the same ol' questions, these discussion rarely if ever yield any any tangable result.

On one side, we have folks who believe that financial opportunities exist for independent artists in the digital word. On the other side, we have folks who don't.

 

So...here's my suggestion.

Those who believe that opportunity exists should put their money where their mouth is...do it!

Put your stuff out there, do your level best to independently promote it AND THEN return to this thread and share the results of your efforts.

Real world results are incredibly hard to argue with...unless of course, you're Donald Trump :rolleyes:

Did you actually make money?

Add up every dime that you spent to make it happen (digital tracking codes, promotional expenses, artwork, taxes, fees paid to royalty collection entities, CD production costs, mastering costs, mixing costs, new equipment purchases) ...subtract that amount from the grand total of what you took-in, then tell us if you made money, or lost money.

 

Several of you have already taken steps toward releasing your material for sale.

I imagine other members would benefit greatly from the sharing of your results.

 

Tom

 

 

 

Tom, Tom. Dear, friend Tom. Of all the curmudgeons who seem to inhabit this site, you are without doubt my favorite. I mean that from the heart, my talented friend. The above is hogswallow, and perhaps more accurately describes your own frustration with the state of the industry than it does accurately reflect or address the subject of this thread.

 

First off, it may be rehash to you, but I craft my posts. I know what I write... what I wrote. What you reference with the above suggestion isn't it.


I submit that if you go back and re-read the OP, you will find that it is not at all about whether or not the opportunities that used to exist for performers are gone, or if it is worth it to go independent. It's about having people describe, and then perhaps discuss how they perceive the road they might take to achieve real success in the music business.  I wrote of my own experiences, and hopes for success, only because an initial point of reference seemed to me to be an integral part of the OP, Something needed to help frame the coming discussion. I almost always include my own point of view in each post I write, But that, in and of itself, does not usually constitute the gist of my posts.

 

Tom, don't you think that such a discussion... MANY such discussions.... is required? Young people coming up still discover they have skills and talents. Young people still have dreams. No matter the state of the industry, young artists and performers are still going to have to decide, each one individually, how to pursue that goal, once a decision is made to try and have a career in music or music entertainment.

 

Or, would you simply, arbitrarily deny all and sundry the chance to make such a decision, or go on such a journey, whatever new form it may take...?

 

How it used to happen, meaning, for example, young bands playing night and day, slogging out a low level, often seemingly endless series of gigs, writing tons of original songs and hoping a handful have real appeal, and then, in most cases, having no better plan that a hope and desire to be "discovered" by some agent of the labels, no longer holds true.

 

Yet, even today, young artists (or at least young, pretty, out going  personalities... talent can be and is, taught) are being signed, and groomed, to be stares, by the labels. You need only tune to any pop, R&B, Hip-Hop or similar format radio station, or click through to any number of pop related entertainment to see that this is so.

 

Over the last two decades, however, it has become less and less clear how one might go about pursuing a career as a creative musician, once one makes the decision to do so. I wrote the OP hoping to discover how various people here see "the road to personal success" laying itself out before them. If you read the entire thread, you will see that, although there has been some drift in various skewed directions... what I asked for, I got.

 

Since the opportunity to go out and pursue a career as you suggest is no longer an option for me, I for one will not be doing as you suggested brother Tom. It is my fervent hope you do not take that, or this response, to heart.

 

To amend my OP, however,, I will tell you one thing I sometimes think about:

 

It may seem cynical or even slightly paranoid to some, but I often feel that the very best opportunities for stardom or great success as an artist are either reserved by wealthy parents for their kids, or handed down, like gentrified estate holdings, from generation to generation. How many stars today, in all forms of entertainment, are the children of former stars? How many boy bands, or divas, or any hot, young new act, are such because of, and owing to the ability of their parents to pay for intensive, grossly expensive, in depth training once some measure if raw talent is observed in their offspring?

 

Sometimes it feels as if the most wealthy among us are gobbling up so much of the very best of what America (still) has to offer, they might end up drawing unwanted, and most undesirable attention down upon themselves.

 

It certainly would not be the first time such a revolutionary redistribution of resources occurred in our society.

 

Anyone remember a little soiree known commonly as the American Revolutionary War? or, hell... even The Civil War?

 

Now there's food for thought, if you ask me.

 

 

 

Edited by Rob Ash

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HoboSage    1,904

If I'm the the right "state of mind," I can find some comfort in thinking that, in some other reality in the multiverse, there's a "me" who's making killer music and is wildly successful at it.  But alas, such comforting thoughts are fleeting - lasting only until it occurs to me that I wouldn't like his mixes either.

 

 

 

Edited by HoboSage

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Rob Ash    476

 

 

4 minutes ago, HoboSage said:

If I'm the the right "state of mind," I can find some comfort in thinking that, in some other reality in the multiverse, there's a "me" who's making killer music and is wildly successful at it.  But alas, such thoughts are fleeting - lasting only until it occurs to me that I wouldn't like his mixes either.

 

 

Amen, Dave.

 

And remember: puff, puff, pass.

 

 

Edited by Rob Ash

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Rob Ash    476

 

 

2 minutes ago, HoboSage said:

LOL  Thanks for quoting me before I fixed my typo, Rob. :)

 

 

All taken care of, kimosabe. I won't leave ya hangin'...

 

 

 

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HoboSage    1,904

I'm losing it.  I had fixed it.  Never mind.

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Rob Ash    476

 

 

5 minutes ago, HoboSage said:

I'm losing it.  I had fixed it.  Never mind.

 

 

Your noggin is fine, Dave. I fixed the typo seconds after reading your post.

 

Yes, Elizabeth, that WAS a UFO...

 

 

 

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Rob Ash    476

 

 

On 7/13/2017 at 8:55 PM, starise said:

 

Be careful with that. This is us you're talking about :D

 

 

Well... yeah.... sort of.

 

I mean; - yes... we are of that older mind set, but we (here meant to include, let us say, all members of SongStuff) do not control anything, or at least do not control much. I consider myself to be an observer and commentator now, Tim. Often, my reflections, here or otherwise, are born of those observations. But there is little I can personally do to alter either the current disposition or the course of the industry.

 

What I can do is lead discussions, or begin them at any rate. Such is a service often provided by a previous generation, and one for which I consider myself to be, at least  marginally, suited.

 

 

 

Edited by Rob Ash
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starise    366

This is true Rob. And me being of the older mindset, I think this would be a great time for a nappy nap. ****YAWN******. It has nothing to do with your well written foray into this subject. Creative minds need rest. I didn't want to step into today today. I wanted to put that off until tomorrow or next week, but alas, here it is and I'm in the mess again. I can't lay down because I'm in a chair and it probably wouldn't bode well to those who pay me. I'll fight to remain vertical until I get home.

 

This day started out bad and hasn't changed yet. I just want to get it over with. If this is success you can have it.

 

I'll take peace, quiet and sanity over success any day. 

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Ray888    158
2 hours ago, starise said:

This is true Rob. And me being of the older mindset, I think this would be a great time for a nappy nap. ****YAWN******. It has nothing to do with your well written foray into this subject. Creative minds need rest. I didn't want to step into today today. I wanted to put that off until tomorrow or next week, but alas, here it is and I'm in the mess again. I can't lay down because I'm in a chair and it probably wouldn't bode well to those who pay me. I'll fight to remain vertical until I get home.

 

This day started out bad and hasn't changed yet. I just want to get it over with. If this is success you can have it.

 

I'll take peace, quiet and sanity over success any day. 

 

Peace, quiet and sanity equates to success in my book :001_smile:

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starise    366

I hope you have that Ray.

 

Right after I typed this my day got really busy so I was able to stay awake lol. 

 

 

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Ray888    158
6 hours ago, starise said:

I hope you have that Ray.

 

Right after I typed this my day got really busy so I was able to stay awake lol. 

 

 

 

Peace, quiet, sanity, contentment, happiness are fleeting because if we had it all the time we would not appreciate those times when we have it. You definitely get more of it with age although along with old age comes health issues which can impede on how one feels. I think that if we look for it there are always positives so it's important to not focus on the hardships too much because it can kill ones spirit. 

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starise    366

I've already had some of those health issues Ray. I must be old. Not getting old, just old :) Some of the issues are still lurking around to potentially come back later. The grim reaper has a lot of help. It doesn't help that I commonly hear of men 10 years younger than me who didn't make it with a similar thing. I count myself lucky or  successful in that regard. It goes day by day. The reaper is always in the shadows waiting reminding that he's there for when the time comes.

 

 A friend recently went to get a routine checkup. Prostate cancer spread to the back bones and other places. They can't cure it, only maybe delay it. It has advanced too far to really control. He made a statement that seems simple, but it caused me to think. He said, " I'll live until I die".  

 

There are certainly positives. Having today is a positive. Being able to talk with a great person like you an ocean away is a positive. I'll live until I die. I have my faith too, so I don't feel bad about death since it's only the beginning. 

 

I agree about focusing on hardships. Focusing on a problem never solves it if all we do is focus and worry or become despondent.  I'll live until I die and i intend to live well, productive and happy as a man can be. 

 

 

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@starise  "Reaper in the Shadows". Fodder for a song.

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