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Hello! This is the 10th iteration of my previous attempts to write a song. I am not a native English speaker so please help me to check if what I am on right now is OK to use in my song. I wanted also to thank everyone who helped me to get to this point of this song version! Those people that offered their comments and critique on previous versions. I hope you could hand  me a hand one more time. 

======================================

 

*** Inside Your Game ***

 

Verse 1

Call me, please call me, haul me out the jail I'm in to

I'm so tired, tired of watching time, while darkness grows through

Play me, like I have no name, frame me inside your game

Lie to me, lie but stay with me, you know, I'll never complain

 

Refrain 1

I try again... to get to you but you're starting to play, you're starting to play

And though there was no one who won in this game I'm still gonna play the same

I try again... thoughts are flying away with no sign of regret with no reason to stay

Want them to break free and get out, I don't care while you're still around

 

Verse 2

Days stretching, days get longer, I'm longing to catch sight of you

The feeling like storm grows stronger, its wrong and it's past due

 

Bridge

Out of my mind! Truth or lie? I have no clue.

Are you on my side or am I left behind? It's so uncertain. I can't get close to you

Refrain 2

I try again... to get to you but you're starting to play, yeah you're starting to play

I know there was no one who won in this game I'm still gonna play the same

I try again... thoughts are flying away with no sign of regret with no reason to stay

Hoping to get to the firm ground.  Lost or found?

 

Ending

Call me, I want you to call, my spirit burns, it needs to know

I'm tired of being tired, I'm tired of sitting here and just watching time

Forever no season lasts but never say never

I don't want to know the score, I wanna be inside your game forevermore

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Hi Max,

 

A few suggestions highlighted in blue :

 

Verse 1

Call me, please call me, haul me out of the jail I'm in

I'm so tired, tired of watching time, while darkness grows within

Play me, like I have no name, frame me with your game

Lie to me, lie but stay with me, you know, I'll never complain

 

Refrain 1

I try again... to get to you but you're starting to play, you're starting to play

And though there was only one who won in this game I'll play all the same

I try again... thoughts are flying with no sign of regret with no reason to stay

Want them to break free and get out and not care if you're still around

 

Verse 2

Days stretching, days getting longer, I'm longing to catch sight of you

The feeling like storm grows stronger, its wrong and it's past due

 

Bridge

Out of my mind! Truth or lie? I have no clue.

Are you on my side or am I left behind? It's so uncertain. And I can't get close to you

Refrain 2

I try again... to get to you but you're starting to play, yeah you're starting to play

I know there was only one who won in this game but I'll play all the same

I try again... thoughts are flying with no sign of regret with no reason to stay

Hoping to find a firm ground.  Will I be lost or found?

 

Ending

Call me, I want you to call, my spirit burns, it needs to know

I'm tired of being tired, I'm tired of sitting here and just watching time

Forever seasons change but I never say never

I don't want to know the score, I wanna be your game just once more

 

 

It was painful to read this, honestly, as I don't like dark lyrics. But as a songwriter, you seem to have etched out the character's dilemma and helplessness pretty well. Kudos! :)

 

 

Edited by Sreyashi Mukherjee

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On 2017-6-19 at 9:30 AM, Max spb said:

Hello! This is the 10th iteration of my previous attempts to write a song. I am not a native English speaker so please help me to check if what I am on right now is OK to use in my song. I wanted also to thank everyone who helped me to get to this point of this song version! Those people that offered their comments and critique on previous versions. I hope you could hand  me a hand one more time. 

======================================

 

*** Inside Your Game ***

 

Verse 1

Call me, please call me, haul me out the jail I'm in to

I'm so tired, tired of watching time, while darkness grows through

Play me, like I have no name, frame me inside your game

Lie to me, lie but stay with me, you know, I'll never complain

 

Refrain 1

I try again... to get to you but you're starting to play, you're starting to play

And though there was no one who won in this game I'm still gonna play the same

I try again... thoughts are flying away with no sign of regret with no reason to stay

Want them to break free and get out, I don't care while you're still around

 

Verse 2

Days stretching, days get longer, I'm longing to catch sight of you

The feeling like storm grows stronger, its wrong and it's past due

 

Bridge

Out of my mind! Truth or lie? I have no clue.

Are you on my side or am I left behind? It's so uncertain. I can't get close to you

Refrain 2

I try again... to get to you but you're starting to play, yeah you're starting to play

I know there was no one who won in this game I'm still gonna play the same

I try again... thoughts are flying away with no sign of regret with no reason to stay

Hoping to get to the firm ground.  Lost or found?

 

Ending

Call me, I want you to call, my spirit burns, it needs to know

I'm tired of being tired, I'm tired of sitting here and just watching time

Forever no season lasts but never say never

I don't want to know the score, I wanna be inside your game forevermore

 

Tom (Tunesmith) has pointed out to me that a refrain is a repeated line of a verse in both lyric and music and I have checked and he seems to be correct. However, I was around many songwriters during the early 1960s who called a refrain a section of music used to separate two lyrical sections. I'll need to do a little more research on this just to check if the terms meaning has altered since back then.

Edited by Ray888
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Hate to disagree Ray, but I must.

Grant it, the concept of a refrain is vague, but the general music community defines it differently than you do.

Below are a number of examples, along with their source links....

Quote

 

Definition

The refrain in a song is a line or phrase that repeats at the end of a verse (the part of the song that tells the story). It's usually one or two lines and it sometimes reinforces the song's main point or repeats the title. The idea of a refrain has been around for a long time, and it comes from the Latin word refringere and the old French word refraindre, both of which mean to repeat. One point of clarification here: sometimes a refrain is called a chorus, but they aren't exactly the same thing and definitions have changed over the years. In general, a chorus is much longer than a refrain. It tends to be a whole series of phrases that are sung between verses.

Here's what you should remember: however varied the song format, refrains and verses work together. Verses tell the story. They're always different and move the song along. The refrain comes at the end and is always the same.

 

Source - http://study.com/academy/lesson/refrain-in-music-definition-examples.html

 

Quote

In music, a refrain has two parts: the lyrics of the song, and the melody. Sometimes refrains vary their words slightly when repeated; recognisability is given to the refrain by the fact that it is always sung to the same tune, and the rhymes, if present, are preserved despite the variations of the words. 

Source - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refrain

 

Quote

According to Ken Stephenson in his What to Listen for in Rock: A Stylistic Analysis, a chorus is a complete section of a song that is repeated, where a refrain is a line or two (often at the end of each verse or the beginning of each chorus) that return throughout the song but don't constitute a separate formal division on their own.

Source - https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/23650/do-chorus-and-refrain-have-different-connotations

 

Quote

 

So the refrain can in fact be the chorus, in contradiction of Davis and Wikipedia, and it can equally be a 4-bar phrase which resolves each stanza of a "simple verse form" like "Blowin' In The Wind", just as they said it was.

Like "the hook", it doesn't matter where it is, or what shape it takes, it's what it does that's important.

 

Source - http://www.songstuff.com/song-writing/article/songwriting_terminology/

 

Quote

 

Chorus or refrain[edit]

"The difference between refrain and chorus is not always cut-and-dried; both refer to passages of unchanging music and text providing a periodic sense of return."[6] "At times, the term 'refrain' has been used interchangeably with 'chorus.' Technically, the refrain may be considered anything that's not the verse....a song part that contains the hook or title and appears more than once in a song is usually called 'a chorus.'"

 

 
Plenty more where that came from, but that should be enough to make my point which is...it is typically viewed as containing BOTH musical & lyrical elements.
 
Tom  
Edited by tunesmithth
Made visible again because of Ray's follow-up comment.

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4 hours ago, Ray888 said:

Hi, Just to make you aware that a "Refrain" is a musical section that has no lyrical content. It is usually utilised to allow the previous lyrical section to be absorbed by the listener. What you are calling refrain should be "Chorus".

Thanks for letting me know. Will call it chorus from now on. 

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6 hours ago, Sreyashi Mukherjee said:

Hi Max,

 

A few suggestions highlighted in blue :

 

Verse 1

Call me, please call me, haul me out of the jail I'm in

I'm so tired, tired of watching time, while darkness grows within

Play me, like I have no name, frame me with your game

Lie to me, lie but stay with me, you know, I'll never complain

 

Refrain 1

I try again... to get to you but you're starting to play, you're starting to play

And though there was only one who won in this game I'll play all the same

I try again... thoughts are flying with no sign of regret with no reason to stay

Want them to break free and get out and not care if you're still around

 

Verse 2

Days stretching, days getting longer, I'm longing to catch sight of you

The feeling like storm grows stronger, its wrong and it's past due

 

Bridge

Out of my mind! Truth or lie? I have no clue.

Are you on my side or am I left behind? It's so uncertain. And I can't get close to you

Refrain 2

I try again... to get to you but you're starting to play, yeah you're starting to play

I know there was only one who won in this game but I'll play all the same

I try again... thoughts are flying with no sign of regret with no reason to stay

Hoping to find a firm ground.  Will I be lost or found?

 

Ending

Call me, I want you to call, my spirit burns, it needs to know

I'm tired of being tired, I'm tired of sitting here and just watching time

Forever seasons change but I never say never

I don't want to know the score, I wanna be your game just once more

 

 

It was painful to read this, honestly, as I don't like dark lyrics. But as a songwriter, you seem to have etched out the character's dilemma and helplessness pretty well. Kudos! :)

 

 

Thanks a lot for your suggestions. I do not like dark lyrics as well but sometimes it's just getting out on it's own. :)

 

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3 hours ago, Max spb said:

Thanks for letting me know. Will call it chorus from now on. 

 

Hi Max, It seems that we may both be wrong about refrain.

Tom (Tunesmith) has pointed out to me that a refrain is a repeated line of a verse in both lyric and music and I have checked and he seems to be correct. However, I was around many songwriters during the early 1960s who called a refrain a section of music used to separate two lyrical sections. I'll need to do a little more research on this just to check if the terms meaning has altered since back then.

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14 hours ago, tunesmithth said:

Hate to disagree Ray, but I must.

Grant it, the concept of a refrain is vague, but the general music community defines it differently than you do.

Below are a number of examples, along with their source links....

Source - http://study.com/academy/lesson/refrain-in-music-definition-examples.html

 

Source - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refrain

 

Source - https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/23650/do-chorus-and-refrain-have-different-connotations

 

Source - http://www.songstuff.com/song-writing/article/songwriting_terminology/

 

 
Plenty more where that came from, but that should be enough to make my point which is...it is typically viewed as containing BOTH musical & lyrical elements.
 
Tom  

Hi Tom,

It appears that even your varied sources conflict in their interpretation of what a refrain is so I do think it is worth further investigation. I am also wondering if there is a difference between US and UK meanings. One thing that will hopefully come out of this is that we will be even clearer of it's meaning and make any necessary corrections on WIKI.

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16 hours ago, tunesmithth said:

Hate to disagree Ray, but I must.

Grant it, the concept of a refrain is vague, but the general music community defines it differently than you do.

Below are a number of examples, along with their source links....

Source - http://study.com/academy/lesson/refrain-in-music-definition-examples.html

 

Source - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refrain

 

Source - https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/23650/do-chorus-and-refrain-have-different-connotations

 

Source - http://www.songstuff.com/song-writing/article/songwriting_terminology/

 

 
Plenty more where that came from, but that should be enough to make my point which is...it is typically viewed as containing BOTH musical & lyrical elements.
 
Tom  

Hi Tom,

I'm afraid that this is turning out to be a lot more complicated than expected. Even in your "Definition" link it states that "definitions have changed over the years".

 

From this excerpt in your link it looks as though a Refrain can be either lyrical or musical "A refrain (from Vulgar Latinrefringere, "to repeat", and later from Old Frenchrefraindre) is the line or lines that are repeated in music or in verse;

 

It would seem that there is no fixed definition of Chorus or Refrain because it depends much on the time period and music genre and to make things a little more complicated it seems that different countries have different definitions. Germany as an example.

 

There are two distinct uses of the word "chorus." In the thirty-two bar song form that was most common in the earlier twentieth-century popular music (especially the Tin Pan Alley tradition), "chorus" referred to the entire main section of the song (which was in a thirty-two bar AABA form). Beginning in the rock music of the 1950s, another form became more common in commercial pop music, which was based in an open-ended cycle of verses instead of a fixed 32-bar form. In this form (which is more common than thirty-two bar form in later-twentieth century pop music), "choruses" with fixed lyrics are alternated with "verses" in which the lyrics are different with each repetition. In this use of the word, chorus contrasts with the verse, which usually has a sense of leading up to the chorus. "Many popular songs, particularly from early in this century, are in a verse and a chorus (refrain) form. Most popular songs from the middle of the century consist only of a chorus."[2]

While the terms 'refrain' and 'chorus' often are used synonymously, it has been suggested to use 'refrain' exclusively for a recurring line of identical text and melody which is part of a formal section—an A section in an AABA form (as in I Got Rhythm: "...who could ask for anything more?") or a verse (as in Blowing in the Wind: "...the answer my friend is blowing in the wind")—whereas 'chorus' shall refer to a discrete form part (as in Yellow Submarine: "We all live in a..."). According to the musicologists Ralf von Appen and Markus Frei-Hauenschild,

 

In German, the term, "Refrain," is used synonymously with "chorus" when referring to a chorus within the verse/chorus form. At least one English-language author, Richard Middleton, uses the term in the same way. In English usage, however, the term, »refrain« typically refers to what in German is more precisely called the »Refrainzeile« (refrain line): a lyric at the beginning or end of a section that is repeated in every iteration. In this usage, the refrain does not constitute a discrete, independent section within the form. [3]

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Of course, you are correct. There is much variation in interpretation.

But for purposes of this thread, I wasn't concerned with exactly what a refrain is.

My only concern was establishing what it contains.

 

You claimed that refrains do not contain lyrical materials (music-only).

Not only does that run contrary to anything I've ever heard, I found no information online to support that contention. Everything I found said lyrics and music.

Honestly, anything beyond what it contains is a discussion for another time & place.

 

Tom

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51 minutes ago, tunesmithth said:

Of course, you are correct. There is much variation in interpretation.

But for purposes of this thread, I wasn't concerned with exactly what a refrain is.

My only concern was establishing what it contains.

 

You claimed that refrains do not contain lyrical materials (music-only).

Not only does that run contrary to anything I've ever heard, I found no information online to support that contention. Everything I found said lyrics and music.

Honestly, anything beyond what it contains is a discussion for another time & place.

 

Tom

Tom, I don't agree with you that it is a discussion for another time and place. I did not do my research to prove or disprove anything with you. Because it was described differently depending on where the info was sourced I felt that it was worth looking into. I'm sure there are others that will learn something from the info that we both supplied. I certainly did.

 

If anything it brought to light that the definition had changed through time and depending on the territory it's meaning varied considerably. Surely that is a positive outcome.

Edited by Ray888

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I know many European songwriters use the term "refrain" to refer to what I refer to as a "chorus."  [Some also use the term "bridge" for what I would term a "pre-chorus," or even a "chorus."]  But, the term "refrain," I've always seen it used and have myself used it to refer to a repeated lyric, which may or may not be accompanied by a change in the musical progression.  I'll use it to refer to a repeated lyric that occurs at the end of verses as a resolving section in songs that really don't have what I think of as being a true chorus.  For example, structure-wise/song section-wise, "the answer my friend, is blowin in the wind, the answer is blowin in the wind," I would call a "refrain" and not a "chorus."  But, I would also call the certain words that vocals sing which are repeated - inside or outside of a chorus - to be a "refrain" within a given structural section of the song.   But, that's just me.  Your results may vary.  Void where prohibited.  :)

 

 

Edited by HoboSage

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2 minutes ago, HoboSage said:

I know many European songwriters use the term "refrain" to refer to what I refer to as a "chorus."  [Some also use the term "bridge" for what I would term a "pre-chorus."]  But, the term "refrain" I've always seen and have myself used to refer to a repeated lyric,  which may or may not be accompanied by a change in the musical progression.  I'll use it to refer to a repeated lyric that occurs at the end of verses as a resolving section in songs that really don't have what I think of as being a true chorus.  For example, "the answer my friend, is blowing in the wind, the answer is blowing in the wind," I would call a "refrain" and not a "chorus."  I would also call certain words that backing vocals sing which are repeated - inside or outside of a chorus - to be a "refrain."  But, that's just me. :)

From what I have understood from all I've read Hobo I believe that you are correct regarding US terminology and also the German interpretation of Chorus encompassing both chorus and refrain. Some info refers to a refrain being the repeat line on the end of a verse but some say that it is the repeat line on the end of a chorus. Your bridge/pre chorus is also the same thing depending on the territory you are in. To my understanding it is still very ambiguous because it is difficult to know what is correct today because of the changing meaning over the years.

It baffles me why this should be?

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Quote

Tom, I don't agree with you that it is a discussion for another time and place.

 

I made that statement because...

  • This discussion is taking place in the contest of the "Lyric Critique" section of the site. People post their works here to obtain useful feedback, suggestions & critique of their works-in-progress. I see nothing to make me think that this poster was looking for an education on the fine points & historical evolution of songwriting terminology. Do you? We have essentially hi-jacked this man's thread & turned it into an off-topic discussion. He wanted feedback on his lyric & we are not allowing that to occur.
  • There are specific sections of this website set aside for discussions of this type. That's where it should be taking place.
  • The original posted specified that he is NOT a native speaker of English. Because of that, he indicated that the crafting of this lyric has been a challenging process. This is his 10th attempt at a final format. Even if he were interested in the topic of our discussion, he's probably having a difficult time following it. I'm sure he appreciated your attempted guidance about proper terminology, but once that advice was questioned we really should have taken this discussion to another part of the site.

THAT's what I meant when I said another time, another place. It had nothing to do with you personally.

 

*My sincerest apologies to the original poster for hi-jacking his thread.

I promise...this is my last comment here.;)

 

Tom

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Fair comment, Perhaps it would help him if all our posts were deleted so that he can receive the feedback that he was originally seeking.

 

I don't have an issue with that.

 

My apologies for us both hijacking his thread.

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