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snabbu    439
 

 

This still doesn't have the fixes in it for the piano and ess sounds I have done them but I have an issue with the actual writing and I want to fix that first.

 

 

 

Highs and Lows

© 2017 Gary Yeomans

 

Verse 1

How can you know what its like to be up

If you have never ever been down

Contrast is all it is

 

Verse 2

How can you know what its like to be right

If you have never ever been wrong 

Contradiction is what that is

 

Chorus

Highs and lows

Life ebbs and flows

Highs and lows

You know we’ve all had some of those

Thats the way life rolls

Not gonna drown if you go with the flow  after all it's only highs and lows 

Highs and lows”

 

Bridge

The colour scheme of the social scene

Has painted your emotions grey

No one can be radiate brilliance all the time 

All the time

 

Chorus

Highs and lows

Life ebbs and flows

Highs and lows

You know we’ve all had some of those

Thats the way life rolls

Not gonna drown if you go with the flow  after all it's only highs and lows 

Highs and lows”

 

Verse 3

How can you know what its like to be loved

If you have never ever been alone

Counterpoint is all it is

 

Chorus

Highs and lows

Life ebbs and flows

Highs and lows

You know we’ve all had some of those

Thats the way life rolls

Not gonna drown if you go with the flow  after all it's only highs and lows 

Highs and lows"

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by snabbu
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HoboSage    1,990

The lead vocal is too up front, and the effected Sgt.Pepper backing vocals are really too up front.  What happens to the piano?  It's very present at the start, but over time it almost completely disappears.  There are weird volume changes going on throughout the song, Gary.  I think you might be over-compressing or something.

 

The "s" ending "lows" when you sing "highs and lows" isn't coming through.  It sounds like "highs and low."

 

The final, held "highs and lows" resolving the chorus must be in harmony! :)

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An emotional ballad. I agree with @HoboSage's comment regarding the vocals being too up front. It also sounds as though there's some sort of chorus effect going on there, or maybe it's extreme compression. Some other comments:

  • The piano has a distinct lack of sustain pedal use, for example at the end of the phrase around 0:29, and again around 0:33, and again at other points throughout the song. This is distracting from the performance. I'm assuming this isn't a real piano?
  • The piano -- at least during the first verse before the other instruments kick in -- sounds like it has had too much low-end EQ carving performed on it. It's sounding a bit thin -- the richness and body of it has all but disappeared. I would also play the left hand part an octave lower, at least in the first verse.
  • I would add a distant violin pad from 0:40 onwards, to give the section some more depth/ambience. The whole section sounds a bit empty to me.
  • The section around 1:40 sounds a bit empty compared to what preceded it. Ah, that's because the bass has gone missing!
  • The rogue snare drum in the first 4 or so bars of the chorus doesn't sound good to me. It's like it's randomly choosing a beat to fall on. No drummer (that I know of) does that. Again, I'm assuming the drums are programmed, but I could be wrong.
  • The bass drops in and out, making sections where it doesn't play sound really empty. Having no bass might work with some songs, but not with this one.
  • It sounds like there's some heavy compression going on with the whole song, with too fast an attack time, which makes the transients sound really weak at points. Are you compressing on the 2-buss?

All in all, a good song, but the mix and parts of the arrangement (piano, bass) could do with polishing.

 

Edited by Will Sketches

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HoboSage    1,990

I agree with Will about some piano notes needing to sustain longer to have it sound like it's being played with appropriate natural flow.

 

 

Edited by HoboSage

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ImKeN    271

@snabbu,

 

Your voice is a pop instrument: so clear and loud! I enjoyed the song very much, but I also think there's room for improvement - especially the chorus, I think it needs a stronger melodic hook. David and Will have given some awesome critiques on the production so I'll leave you to it.

 

All the best,

 

Ken

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Jim622    80

Good song. You have gotten some good input on the recording. I'll just say I'm not completely in agreement with ImKeN about the chorus. I think lyrically it can work fine, it does have a George Harrison feel to it with the backing vocals. Maybe if you just came at the chorus from a slightly different angle musically. Again good song.

 

Jim

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snabbu    439
20 hours ago, HoboSage said:

The lead vocal is too up front, and the effected Sgt.Pepper backing vocals are really too up front.  What happens to the piano?  It's very present at the start, but over time it almost completely disappears.  There are weird volume changes going on throughout the song, Gary.  I think you might be over-compressing or something.

 

The "s" ending "lows" when you sing "highs and lows" isn't coming through.  It sounds like "highs and low."

 

The final, held "highs and lows" resolving the chorus must be in harmony! :)

 

Hi Dave

Thanks for having listen.

I must have done something to the piano by mistake because when I listened again I see it's gone real weak. 

Also I think today what sounded OK yesterday now is sounding horrid. Its hard to believe your ears sometimes. 

I know it's a thing that your ears get fatigue but I can usually hear when I'm not singing in tune. There's a couple of real bad notes in the harmony.

Particularly on "and" In that section I don't even think its of the key. 

Thanks again.

 

Cheers

 

Gary

 

 

 

 

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Just1L    949

Are you planning

To upload a new track?

If that's the case

Then I'll have to come back.

Edited by Just1L

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snabbu    439
12 hours ago, Will Sketches said:

An emotional ballad. I agree with @HoboSage's comment regarding the vocals being too up front. It also sounds as though there's some sort of chorus effect going on there, or maybe it's extreme compression. Some other comments:

  • The piano has a distinct lack of sustain pedal use, for example at the end of the phrase around 0:29, and again around 0:33, and again at other points throughout the song. This is distracting from the performance. I'm assuming this isn't a real piano?
  • The piano -- at least during the first verse before the other instruments kick in -- sounds like it has had too much low-end EQ carving performed on it. It's sounding a bit thin -- the richness and body of it has all but disappeared. I would also play the left hand part an octave lower, at least in the first verse.
  • I would add a distant violin pad from 0:40 onwards, to give the section some more depth/ambience. The whole section sounds a bit empty to me.
  • The section around 1:40 sounds a bit empty compared to what preceded it. Ah, that's because the bass has gone missing!
  • The rogue snare drum in the first 4 or so bars of the chorus doesn't sound good to me. It's like it's randomly choosing a beat to fall on. No drummer (that I know of) does that. Again, I'm assuming the drums are programmed, but I could be wrong.
  • The bass drops in and out, making sections where it doesn't play sound really empty. Having no bass might work with some songs, but not with this one.
  • It sounds like there's some heavy compression going on with the whole song, with too fast an attack time, which makes the transients sound really weak at points. Are you compressing on the 2-buss?

All in all, a good song, but the mix and parts of the arrangement (piano, bass) could do with polishing.

 

Hi Will

Thanks for the detailed comments.

I was quite tired when I bounced this down and I was doing an EQ thing from something I had read just recently and scooped out quickly from other instruments the primary voice frequencies, this completely stuffed the piano but I didn't notice it at the time, through headphones. So I think point one and two are fixed by getting rid of the subtractive eq and turning the piano volume up to where the sustain is audible. 

 

I have taken note of the violin pad comment. I stopped using pads because I was overusing them and they are boring and lazy, or perhaps I was using them wrongly like too loud in the mix. My feeling is that if that section is a bit empty maybe I should write a countermelody for say guitar and maybe as I see you are saying for ambiance just a very low string pad.

 

The bass thing, I was worried about having cellos and bass going at the same time so I didn't play bass in the bridge. I will have a listen for the drop off and I guess I either have to do double bass there or just play the electric in that section as well.

 

With the compression. I first gain ride the vocals, then apply 5 db of compression before outputting it to a vocal buss on which I have my effect plug ins.

This is so I can get really good input level most of the track without peaking the input on my plugins. I am then using a waves CLA bundle which on this includes a compressor.

Then there is a multi on the stereo out which is just the factory default. In rock finaliser channel strip settings, there is then a limiter with about 6db of gain from memory.

So if I am to cut the amount of compression should it be in the Chris Algie plug in as I have already compressed before then or should I be reducing the values across the board. Like raising all the thresholds by 20 percent. I don't have a 2-buss I am mixing entirely in the DAW. I have a feeling this makes gain staging a lot more important. So I need to bone up on that.

 

Thanks again for the detailed comments.

 

Cheers

 

Gary 

 

 

 

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snabbu    439
42 minutes ago, Just1L said:

Are you planning

To upload a new track?

If that's the case

Then I'll have to come back.

Hi

Yes what was up there was not the best so I took it down not to waste anyones time until I fix the glaring issues.

 

Cheers

 

Gary

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snabbu    439
8 hours ago, Jim622 said:

Good song. You have gotten some good input on the recording. I'll just say I'm not completely in agreement with ImKeN about the chorus. I think lyrically it can work fine, it does have a George Harrison feel to it with the backing vocals. Maybe if you just came at the chorus from a slightly different angle musically. Again good song.

 

Jim

Hi Jim

Thanks for the listen.

I need to go back and check what I am doing there as far as melody and chord flow maybe the melody setting, maybe some extra space around the melody with an instrumental hook I will have a look at that.

 

Cheers

 

Gary

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snabbu    439
10 hours ago, ImKeN said:

@snabbu,

 

Your voice is a pop instrument: so clear and loud! I enjoyed the song very much, but I also think there's room for improvement - especially the chorus, I think it needs a stronger melodic hook. David and Will have given some awesome critiques on the production so I'll leave you to it.

 

All the best,

 

Ken

Thanks for the listen Ken

I am going to revisit the chorus not so much to change what is there unless there is like a poor chord choice shooting it in the foot. 

I may play with extending it to put some space around the melody that sometimes helps. 

 

Cheers

 

Gary

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Just1L    949
18 hours ago, snabbu said:

Hi

Yes what was up there was not the best so I took it down not to waste anyones time until I fix the glaring issues.

 

Cheers

 

Gary

 

Understandable, but I still think you should have left it. Sometimes I feel we could use more "less perfectly done" songs posted here if for nothing else but to make really new songwriters more comfortable posting their stuff. I'll be back.

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snabbu    439
5 hours ago, Just1L said:

 

Understandable, but I still think you should have left it. Sometimes I feel we could use more "less perfectly done" songs posted here if for nothing else but to make really new songwriters more comfortable posting their stuff. I'll be back.

Hi

I am back up with the second draft.

I think your right on two fronts. One the new guys who are song writers not divas, but also this forum concentrates on production and performance values rather than song writing.

It's probably important to get the writing right before the performance and production. By posting one plus ones I think critiques could focus in on if the melody is the best it could be, and are the chord choices supporting it. Does the feel match the lyric etc. etc.

 

Cheers

 

Gary

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snabbu    439
On 7/13/2017 at 6:29 PM, Will Sketches said:

An emotional ballad. I agree with @HoboSage's comment regarding the vocals being too up front. It also sounds as though there's some sort of chorus effect going on there, or maybe it's extreme compression. Some other comments:

  • The piano has a distinct lack of sustain pedal use, for example at the end of the phrase around 0:29, and again around 0:33, and again at other points throughout the song. This is distracting from the performance. I'm assuming this isn't a real piano?
  • The piano -- at least during the first verse before the other instruments kick in -- sounds like it has had too much low-end EQ carving performed on it. It's sounding a bit thin -- the richness and body of it has all but disappeared. I would also play the left hand part an octave lower, at least in the first verse.
  • I would add a distant violin pad from 0:40 onwards, to give the section some more depth/ambience. The whole section sounds a bit empty to me.
  • The section around 1:40 sounds a bit empty compared to what preceded it. Ah, that's because the bass has gone missing!
  • The rogue snare drum in the first 4 or so bars of the chorus doesn't sound good to me. It's like it's randomly choosing a beat to fall on. No drummer (that I know of) does that. Again, I'm assuming the drums are programmed, but I could be wrong.
  • The bass drops in and out, making sections where it doesn't play sound really empty. Having no bass might work with some songs, but not with this one.
  • It sounds like there's some heavy compression going on with the whole song, with too fast an attack time, which makes the transients sound really weak at points. Are you compressing on the 2-buss?

All in all, a good song, but the mix and parts of the arrangement (piano, bass) could do with polishing.

 

Hi

I have not added any extra  sustain to the piano because when I fixed the eq it sounded about right to me. Also I have not transposed the left hand down an octave.

I want to see if with the new setting if you think that is still the thing to do.

The string pad I put in in the choruses I was quite pleased with the difference it made it for some reason seemed to lift the chorus. So that was a good call.

I put bass guitar under the bridge as you suggested. 

I have reduced the compression by a lot. I went away and had a read and discovered that the compression rates vary with the type an mood of song. 

For this sort of song it is about 2 db on the stereo mix with individual instruments around 2-5 attack and release adjusted for in time breathing and transients.

I think the sound is quite a bit better. I am really surprised about the effect of the string pad.

 

Cheers

 

Gary

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snabbu    439
On 7/13/2017 at 10:10 AM, HoboSage said:

The lead vocal is too up front, and the effected Sgt.Pepper backing vocals are really too up front.  What happens to the piano?  It's very present at the start, but over time it almost completely disappears.  There are weird volume changes going on throughout the song, Gary.  I think you might be over-compressing or something.

 

The "s" ending "lows" when you sing "highs and lows" isn't coming through.  It sounds like "highs and low."

 

The final, held "highs and lows" resolving the chorus must be in harmony! :)

Hi Dave

I did the best with the "s" thing as I could without going into the file and boosting it.

I don't have an esser plug in :lol:

Seems bit strange to be trying to bring it out more when it's usually the other way around.

Anyway the second draft is up and I am now thinking about a couple of writing modifications.

There is something I played halfway through the last bar on the piano which I like for a coda beats one and two repeated a few times. 

And I am looking at the chorus melody I am thinking that the obvious thing to try is 8va on the "lines high and low" 

to use the highest not in the song hook type idea.

 

Cheers

 

Gary

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Hey Gary,

 

I didn't listen to the previous post of your's but this one sounds nice! It's got a sweet melody seems to give off a Take That vibe (the lead singer's name was Gary, too :P )

 

I think your vocals can be brought forward just a wee bit in some parts (like the first verse & chorus and the third verse). Perhaps bring a little more variety to the ending (?).. the song ends a bit abruptly. And, oh, I can't hear the "s" in "lows" :)

 

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Quote

I have not added any extra  sustain to the piano because when I fixed the eq it sounded about right to me. Also I have not transposed the left hand down an octave. I want to see if with the new setting if you think that is still the thing to do.

 

I wasn't quite sure which of the three links is the latest, but in all three the lack of sustain on the piano seems about the same. To me it sounds like the sustain pedal isn't being used there. I also do still think the left hand should be played down an octave. But at the end of the day, this is just my personal opinion!

 

Quote

I put bass guitar under the bridge as you suggested. 

 

This sounds so much better now!

 

Quote

I have reduced the compression by a lot. [...]

 

Again, I'm not sure which link is the latest version, so I don't know if it has improved.

 

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crystalsuzy    85

I listened to last version, but I don't know if that's your latest version or not :o  You've had some really good feedback already Gary, but I just wanted to say that, I really like your song. I like the subject and lyrics are well written, and the vocals really stand out :hippy:

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Just1L    949

I had to LOL when I saw all the players up there. I'm not sure if I heard the right version or not to be honest. I clicked the link that took me to SoundCloud. But, going with the one I listened to ...

 

I thought the vocals could come up a bit in the mix during the verses. Not much, the piano slightly overpowers. The drums get a little drowned out during the chorus'. The kick and snare. One thing I thought was it would be nice to add something new instrumentally during the second verse. Nothing major, just something to make it a bit different than the first verse and add a little excitement.

 

Something is making this feel long. It's only 4 minutes but I feel like at the 3 minute mark the song was, or should be wrapping up. One part I really like, but maybe could be cut during the first chorus is the "Not gonna drown…." end section of the chorus. It is very strong vocally and almost has this "finale" feel to it. Maybe skipping the first one would be a good idea? Not sure, just my thoughts on it. Overall the song is really beautiful and I enjoyed it quite a bit. 

Edited by Just1L

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snabbu    439
4 hours ago, Just1L said:

I had to LOL when I saw all the players up there. I'm not sure if I heard the right version or not to be honest. I clicked the link that took me to SoundCloud. But, going with the one I listened to ...

 

I thought the vocals could come up a bit in the mix during the verses. Not much, the piano slightly overpowers. The drums get a little drowned out during the chorus'. The kick and snare. One thing I thought was it would be nice to add something new instrumentally during the second verse. Nothing major, just something to make it a bit different than the first verse and add a little excitement.

 

Something is making this feel long. It's only 4 minutes but I feel like at the 3 minute mark the song was, or should be wrapping up. One part I really like, but maybe could be cut during the first chorus is the "Not gonna drown…." end section of the chorus. It is very strong vocally and almost has this "finale" feel to it. Maybe skipping the first one would be a good idea? Not sure, just my thoughts on it. Overall the song is really beautiful and I enjoyed it quite a bit. 

Thanks for the listen and the comments.

I had a bad time imbedding the link it wouldn't work then it worked four times its all the same track and I don't seem to be able to delete the duplicate links in edit mode.

Since this version went up I have fixed a couple of issues. I have redone the piano with sustain and fixed the missing esses issue. I haven't posted it because I have in mind a slight modification to the chorus melody to try and get another hook in there. I just needed a break from it for a week so I can look at it afresh.

Looking at your second verse comment I am thinking maybe a simple electric guitar arpeggio counter melody not too busy might work I will look at that too.

I think with the idea of truncating the chorus it's worth a try out because it's only about 20 minutes cut and paste type work to see what happens. 

 

Thanks again

 

Cheers

 

Gary

 

 

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Just1L    949
On July 24, 2017 at 5:06 PM, snabbu said:

Looking at your second verse comment I am thinking maybe a simple electric guitar arpeggio counter melody not too busy might work I will look at that too.

I think with the idea of truncating the chorus it's worth a try out because it's only about 20 minutes cut and paste type work to see what happens. 

 

Yes, I do think it would be worth trying a little something in that second verse. As far as my other comment, and basing it on your comment to my song, it could be mainly a personal choice type of thing. I tend to lean towards the faster songs. It still may be worth it to try but considering you haven't had other comments on that, it could be a 100% personal comment and not really reflect on whether it truly makes the song better or not. Just thought I'd throw that out there since I had been thinking about it.

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snabbu    439
On 7/27/2017 at 3:57 AM, Just1L said:

 

Yes, I do think it would be worth trying a little something in that second verse. As far as my other comment, and basing it on your comment to my song, it could be mainly a personal choice type of thing. I tend to lean towards the faster songs. It still may be worth it to try but considering you haven't had other comments on that, it could be a 100% personal comment and not really reflect on whether it truly makes the song better or not. Just thought I'd throw that out there since I had been thinking about it.

 

Thanks.

I think tomorrow is the day I've fixed all the basic stuff, and now I'm gonna try and finalise the chorus tune, theres a bit that bugged me and I had to just leave it get out of my head. 

If that fixes it for me I will fiddle with the verse interest. But it's edges stuff, there is a chorus issue. I am missing some tried and true format stuff in there,  I know what it is but I just got to go in there and fix it. Its like there should be, and this is pop theory a really high note in the chorus that is not used elsewhere in the song and it should be on the word "High" at the back end of the chorus, and this is format stuff. Life could be worse I could be writing country or trance . But if I can get that right then it's appropriate to review the edges stuff.

 

Thanks for your help in this project it's been great.

 

Cheers

 

Gary

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ccarnucci    16

I'll strictly be talking to lyrics and melody and structure...

 

First the positive.

 

I think the chorus is really something exceptional, but I would lose the last part of it...

 

Chorus

Highs and lows

Life ebbs and flows

Highs and lows

You know we’ve all had some of those

That's the way life rolls

Highs and lows (let this resolve the chorus with the key chord not a minor chord)

 

Drop this part....Not gonna drown if you go with the flow  after all it's only highs and lows  (this sounds more like a bridge than chorus material.)

 

The true bridge melody you developed is way better. The colour scheme of the social scene etc...) I really like the bridge especially the way it segues into the chorus.

 

The verse melody could use some work.  It doesn't have enough movement (kind of flat and lifeless throughout though they end well melodically)  Not bad mind you, just not dynamic.

 

The verse lyrics need some work.  It seems to me you have a feeling you are trying to convey, but are not really getting it on paper.  I would suggest trying to rewrite them  and try to recapture your intent with a different perspective.

example:

Verse 1 is about living life closer to the edge....paint a better picture of that.

Verse 2 is about taking chances or a leap....paint a better picture of that.

Try painting a picture not describe it like an engineer would.

 

See if this makes sense.

 

If describing a corpse, you could describe how the clothes don't fit and the face seems colorless and loose on the bones.

Or you could say....It looks like a place where a person used to be.

The first is technically accurate.

The second conveys way more intent.

 

Last lets look at structure...

 

Here is my suggestion:

 

Verse 1

How can you know what its like to be up

If you have never ever been down

Contrast is all it is

 

Verse 2

How can you know what its like to be right

If you have never ever been wrong 

Contradiction is what that is

 

Chorus

Highs and lows

Life ebbs and flows

Highs and lows

You know we’ve all had some of those

Thats the way life rolls

Highs and lows

 

Verse 3

How can you know what its like to be loved

If you have never ever been alone

Counterpoint is all it is

 

(Add Verse 4 if you can develop one)

 

Chorus

Highs and lows

Life ebbs and flows

Highs and lows

You know we’ve all had some of those

Thats the way life rolls

Highs and lows

 

Bridge

The colour scheme of the social scene

Has painted your emotions grey

No one can be radiate brilliance all the time 

All the time

 

Chorus

Highs and lows

Life ebbs and flows

Highs and lows

You know we’ve all had some of those

Thats the way life rolls

Those Highs and lows

 

These are just my thoughts and if I can help in any way or clarify anything I said, just drop me a line.

 

Chris

 

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snabbu    439

Hi CC

I am listening to what you are saying. Intently because I have just listened to your song and I made a comment about your judgement. Which I think is very sound.

There is a melodic issue in the chorus in the second section. And I have had to leave it a while to get the forrest and trees out of my head.

The part that bothers me is the part I have in red below.Which immediately follows the part that you suggested be cut. I very much like the motion of the "not gonna drown part"

 

Highs and lows

Life ebbs and flows

Highs and lows

You know we’ve all had some of those

That's the way life rolls

Not gonna drown if you go with the flow  

after all it's only highs and lows

Highs and lows.

 

So first I would like to try a fix I have thought of for that part of the chorus.  Then if there is still an issue go to more drastic changes.

 

In regard to the verse melody I have always written them linear with not much movement because there is lyrical information there and so it contrasts against the chorus which has less lyrical information and more melodic movement. So again I am going to look at that probably instrumentals to see if some more moment sounds like. If it is obviously better I will then redo the vocal to reflect that. My approach will be to just look at the notation and think about the shape the steps and leaps and if it looks right visually. I will get back to you on that when I've done that.

 

If we look at the verse lyric and your feeling about that. Is that the verses are telling and you want them to be showing. 

I at the moment feel that I am using seeming repetition because it's one of my favourite pop lyric techniques. Along with the alliteration technique in the last line. This repetition helps the punters remember the words and it works against the different themes.  Living on the edge, taking a chance , hope. So it sort of glues it together. To me it is such a contrast to the more imagery poetic style of the bridge lyric, that it makes the verse lyric style support the bridge by contrast make it more powerful. 

 

For me if I summed up the message of the song the nut it one line it would be someone saying to someone who was having a hard time  "shit happens don't worry about it."

On the lyric forum I had a few suggestions to change it too rhetorical inclusive questions Like "how do we know" but that seemed to me to turn the thing into a angst ridden thing complaining about life. So I rejected that. Because it's not what I wanted it to say. 

 

I wanted it to be something you could listen too when something bad had happened and at the end think he's right, he understands, he's been there, and it is gonna be ok.

So I'm not rejecting anything I'me just going to do this step by step to make sure I get it as right as I can. And not loose my message.

 

Thanks for the detailed comments.

 

Regards

 

Gary

 

 

 

 

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