What Instrument do you Record First?

[symphonious7]

3 minutes ago, HoboSage said:

Where did I say the sampled drum sounds in your program were artificial?  I specifically acknowledged they were sampled drum sounds.  I think you're still missing my point.   I'm sure that in addition to having great drum sounds, your program also probably has many MIDI loops and grooves you can use to trigger those sounds.  BUT, do you have Omar Hakim or Matt Chamberlain or Joey Waronker or Celso Alberti actually drumming for you?   That's my point.   

Dude.  I think I finally get you.  I have decent studio musicians playing generic grooves for me.  You have the best of the best making the coolest of the cool and it's already mixed.  Yes? Hope I edit this before you see it but, and THEN you creatively cut copy paste and manipulate what they've done, which includes anything you could really imagine, to create your songs.  Double yes??

[symphonious7]

1 minute ago, HoboSage said:

Yes. Yes.  You got it.   I"m telling you, these amazing drummers on their kits doing what they do best are really inspiring - at least they have been for me.

You know, sometimes it's hard to communicate through the net, but it's worth it when you take the time.  How much is that program you use?  I'm curious now!

[starise]

This is a good topic. I guess I use different approaches to find a solution that works for any given song. I suspect Tom is a drummer and so he has an advantage in that regard. In knowing 

how a drummer would think. I work with a drummer every week and I can get some of it.

 

I see a divide in how some software is designed and in how we musicians approach music. Chris, you do it much the same way I do it. The feeling of the tune might require it to slightly speed up or slow down. You aren't aware you're doing this while playing usually, yet it adds something to it.

 

Most music software assumes you have a set tempo. You play your guitar and tap your foot. Then you can get a tempo from that usually into the software. The tempo still moves a bit here and there. Even the best drummers don't hold tight to a beat throughout a tune. This is what gives the tune a human feel as opposed to it sounding too tight and mechanical. Go too far away though and we think it sounds sloppy, so there's a middle ground here.

 

My software has a tap tempo feature. You have to dig for it a bit. It's cool because you can tap in a tempo right away and lock to it.Most software also allows changing tempos during a song. This is a great way to add that vibe. The only problem is you need to be an egg head to program it in some cases. I have seem some daws mixers add a click or two during the chorus or speed it up slightly towards the second half of a tune. The changes are so subtle it becomes more of a feel.

 

As a composer I usually get the tune before I get a beat. It's no secret that most daw software is by default set to 120bpm. This is the closest to the average healthy heart rate and why so much music is at that tempo. 

 

I have shed loads of loops, but I seldom find one that really fits my music. Occasionally I'll get lucky. I prefer the approach to have the drums split up individually either through the drums mixer or fed into independent tracks in the mix. This gives maximum control of the drum mix. You can't really pan a drum mix if you used loops. You're forced to use the panning in the loop.

 

I usually have a drum midi track going through a drum program like AD2 which allows me maximum ability to edit midi, pan, make changes to individual tracks inside the kit. Add efx to individual drum pieces. Change drum kits or individual drum sounds. I sometimes use midi lopps and edit them.

 

Loops are the easiest for beginners. Some of them sound very good. You can still edit at the audio level. My favorite in the box drums so far are hands down BFD. AD2 is a close second..and I'm chewing on buying Superior Drummer. This is the last day of the sale 

 

These drum programs like Addictive Drums are actual samples of real drummers playing all kinds of different drums. through both room and overhead mics. In reality , there are probably too many choices for some mixes. The main challenge is to find the right context for your tune in both drum sounds and playing styles.

[TapperMike]

I take different tacks for different styles.  If it's jazz, pop-rock I don't confuse writing with recording.

 

In those instances I do map out my song forms, tempo changes and progressions with biab and then proceed to work out the score with everything but the drums in biab muted.   I will only listen to the other instruments in biab if I don't have a clear inspiration to work with.  I keep the drum pattern as simple as possible.  I want a strong foundation. 

Prior to BIAB.  When I was much younger I'd always lay down rhythm guitar first.... But because it was my first and only track I'd lay everything I had into it.  That made the track too busy and made it harder for me to lay down the other tracks.  I'd have to go over the rhythm part over and over again trying to loosen it up while maintaining the momentum.  I can't begin to tell you how burnt out I'd get playing all the parts for a song myself.  I'd always leave the melody and the solo for the last tracks to record.  It was like climbing a huge mountain and the solo would be me skiing back down.

 

 

While I'm not a fan of EDM simply because of the lack of soloing.  I do toy with loop based improvising/recording from time to time.  Generally when I need to take a break from playing jazz as I get bored with my own playing.  While I'm enjoying this with Mixcraft and finally working out playing with the artiphon instrument one.  I miss playing my baby-z into my XL-7 command station.

 

 

The baby z has 8 pots as CC encoder wheels which could be assigned to synth values and a whole slew of other things.  Switching tracks while recording via assigned "buttons" on the baby or the track display was seamless.   I didn't get a whole lot accomplished but I had a lot of fun building ambient chill/trance ideas.  

[TCgypsy]

Here is my process:

 

1. I record the main harmony instrument, either keyboards or guitar. This is a scratch track, and will be replaced but it outlines the entire song. I usually sing or hear the vocals in my head while I play this part (but I dont record it yet).

 

2. I may or may not record a scratch vocal track.

 

3. I program my drums (MIDI). This way I get the feel right BEFORE I record all my final instruments, and vocals. Trying to put drums on after you do the instruments just doesn't yield the best results. Since I program my drums to the guitar/piano track I recorded first, it fits the song. Then layering my instruments on top of the drum track yields interaction between the two, and is much easier than trying to play something hip to a metronome.

 

4. I generally will do the bass next since the drums+bass will put the skeleton down. The meat will come next.

 

5. If I haven't already done a quick lead vocal (step 2) I do one now. You want some representation of the vocal so your instruments can play off it, and not step on it.

 

6. I record the vast majority of my instruments. In my case, they are performed. I rarely use loops.

 

7. I record the main vocals. 

 

8. The last things I record are solos and vocal harmonies.

 

9. Mix

 

10. Master

 

This is an iterative process. I may go back and adjust drums, or redo certain things. I generally post mixes so I can get feedback, then fix stuff that other people hear that I may have missed.

 

--TC

[gradual]

Some years ago, I decided that I wanted my "sound" to be primarily piano-driven, and I've pretty much stuck with that direction ever since. Which is fitting, as piano/keyboard is really my only instrument. Probably other option as a keyboard player would be purely electronic synth-based music, which I don't feel quite fits me (though I do like some electronic music.) So the midi piano track will generally be the first element I'll "officially" record. I'll also put down a scratch drum track as well, just because it's easier to play to than a click, but typically it won't be used in the final mix.

 

I'll already have a general idea of rhythm and tempo while writing, but I'm not the most accomplished piano player...I definitely have a habitual way of playing on everything that doesn't give me much in the way of rhythmic suggestions. So for that reason, I don't feel the need to decide on a precise drum rhythm right away. I find that most options will work with my playing. 

 

Once I have the chordal instrument down, I'll record the lead vocal next. Usually the vocal melody will change and evolve as I'm recording, so this won't be the final vocal that gets used. But I do like to put some kind of vocal on as early as I can, as I'd much rather have the basic idea of where it will sit in the track, so I can build the rest of the arrangement and mix around it.

 

After that comes everything else: guitar (midi), bass, drum and percussion fills, backing vocals, etc. 

[Todd M]

So far, drums first here. Bass next, guitars, vocals. I think I’m most comfortable with writing to a rhythm section. 

[Andy235]

Usually, at least when making recordings solo, have recorded myself with vocals and acoustic guitar running through the basic song.

[TCgypsy]

On 1/13/2018 at 2:27 PM, Todd M said:

So far, drums first here. Bass next, guitars, vocals. I think I’m most comfortable with writing to a rhythm section. 

 

This is a great way to go. Too many songwriters overlook the rhythmic elements in the writing and early recording process.

 

I sorta do this but I generally throw down the basic harmonic progression on guitar or piano as a scratch track, then write my drums. I like to have bass and drums 90% of the way there before I really start building the song up.

[Ameni Horus]

On 7/24/2017 at 6:08 PM, symphonious7 said:

I've always recorded my guitars first when I begin recording because it's my main instrument, it's what I play the most naturally, and it's the easiest instrument to know my place I can hum along as I play and I know where I'm at.  But recently I've come to the conclusion it's not the way to go, and I need to program my drums first.  The reason is cause my takes just don't have the right rhythm and they're more out of the pocket when I don't have those drums to give me the feel.  The downside is programming the drums without any reference track is tedious, I have to really imagine the song as I play them and sometimes I get lost and have to play the whole thing back to figure out where I'm at.  I also don't always know the best beat to use without any bass or guitar etc.  But ultimately I think it saves time in the long run, I often times used to have to go back and re-record almost every instrument after the drums were laid.  

 

Do you guys have anything like this you've noticed?  An instrument you have to start with or the recording just doesn't go right?  

I personally am going to try starting with the drums

[starise]

I know it can be tedious to do sometimes. Have you ever tried recording to a metronome? I have had a fair amount of luck recording guitar with a metronome and nothing else. I use the metronome in my software and keep it out of the mics.

 

Imagining the finished song is the most difficult part for me.

 

 

[RealKevM]

I use a BOSS BR 80 digital multitrack recorder for my home demos/songs and most of the time I record the rhythm guitar part first. I find it then easier to add bass, a second guitar, lead guitar and finally vocals.

[childed]

i use draft midi for overlooking composition. 
than i will record drums and bass if it in the song. 
vocal draft take.
guitars and other live instruments.
vocal.

[Glammerocity]

On 7/24/2017 at 5:38 PM, symphonious7 said:

For me I come up with like.... man I come up with probably 3 or 4 songs a week when I'm actually working, so I have enough doable ideas to put the harder ones on the backburner.  problem is if they sit on that burner too long they might burn up.... hahaha

 

That's good discipline, because you might write a line or a section you can reuse later if the whole song doesn't work. I think it was Chris Difford and Glenn Tilbrook's contract which stipulated they had to write a song a day. They Might Be Giants used to write a song a day to put on their answering machine. My own writing went in bursts and I learned not to worry if I got quiet, because I was just refuelling.

 

It's been a while since I did any recording but I've used different processes. I always found I did better if I'd written the song before recording or doing any programming. When I first started using MIDI tech, I'd put so many synth parts in that there'd be no room left by the time I got to the guitar, my main instrument. And I hadn't had a song in mind when I started, so it became a little contrived, hence the return to writing first. But I've done an entire album that was made from sampled loops, where guitars were ad libbed over a drum pattern, then the interesting bits sampled and looped to create the track.

 

My songwriting partner burst into my flat one day and he'd had a song going round in his head for 2 hours on a bus ride. He grabbed a guitar and threw it down onto a 4-tx in one take and we kept that as the demo. It didn't need anything else. So it's really horses for courses.

 

Clicks: I read that a listener's heart tries to match the beat of a song and a band will naturally speed up when they get excited, like in a rockout ending, so that excitement should communicate to the listener. It depends on the band but I produced an album for some friends and decided no click tracks. We used Cubase for the keyboards like a tape recorder synced to the tape machine's timecode. It helps if the drummer has a bit of discipline. There was a local drummer here whose nickname was Varispeed.