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Do you believe in talent?

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Jenn    259

This may have been asked before.. but not in the time I've been here.

 

So my question is: Do you believe that people have talent or is everything based on skill?

 

Of course, this brings up the whole question of "what is talent in the first place"? To me, I guess my best definition would be the ability to naturally and effortlessly surpass adequacy in a particular subject. 

Some people are naturally good at sports, conversation, instruments, etc. 

But I've also heard the opposing argument that talent doesn't exist, and anyone who is deemed as abnormally skilled just put a lot of work into it.

However, for example, I qualify having a "good singing voice" as having predisposed talent; if two people with the same exact experience of singing were compared to each other but one had a naturally better sounding voice, the latter would certainly be deemed as talented. 

Of course it's subjective, and those who are not innately gifted can become talented, per se, but I don't know.. I just think some people naturally have it. You know.. prodigies and stuff.

 

Anyway.. I rambled on here a bit, but please feel free to share your thoughts too..

Thanks for reading!

 

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MonoStone    917
Just now, Jenn said:

This may have been asked before.. but not in the time I've been here.

 

So my question is: Do you believe that people have talent or is everything based on skill?

 

Of course, this brings up the whole question of "what is talent in the first place"? To me, I guess my best definition would be the ability to naturally and effortlessly surpass adequacy in a particular subject. 

Some people are naturally good at sports, conversation, instruments, etc. 

But I've also heard the opposing argument that talent doesn't exist, and anyone who is deemed as abnormally skilled just put a lot of work into it.

However, for example, I qualify having a "good singing voice" as having predisposed talent; if two people with the same exact experience of singing were compared to each other but one had a naturally better sounding voice, the latter would certainly be deemed as talented. 

Of course it's subjective, and those who are not innately gifted can become talented, per se, but I don't know.. I just think some people naturally have it. You know.. prodigies and stuff.

 

Anyway.. I rambled on here a bit, but please feel free to share your thoughts too..

Thanks for reading!

 

People have natural talent and people have skills they learn, and natural talent can be developed further of course. And some people are literally tone deaf so can't possibly make great music (or certainly can't sing great).

 

There's no 'believe' involved... That's just the facts of it.

 

In music (or other arts) some people are born with perfect pitch or inherit genius musical talent... just as some people are born with the ability to draw perfect pictures with no training. (when I say 'born with' clearly it requires a certain age when various functions work well enough to display the talent... no new-borns coming out singing opera or sketching the hospital room... ;)) 

 

 

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Jenn    259
Just now, MonoStone said:

People have natural talent

I've heard this disclaimed many times!!

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tunesmithth    1,287

As you've probably come to expect, I've already dealt with that subject in a blog :rolleyes: Lololo...

 

One excerpt...

 

Quote

Our continued use & glamorization of labels such as "gifted, naturally talented & inspired" in connection with musicians & writers, greatly contributes to the public's misconception of what it takes to become one. Anyone who's proficient in either of those capacities knows full-well that sincere desire, prolonged dedication, personal discipline and hard work play a much bigger part!

 

The brief article from Oct 6, 2010 (Jeez...I've been doing this for too long! )

 

 

Tom

 

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Hey Jen, you've got an interesting topic here.  I can't help but think "some" are born with an inclination toward a skill as they are uniquely designed.  Some have better muscle coordination, some have better mimicking skills, some "get" math concepts or spelling better than others from the get-go and some have social personalities and others have stronger interests or drives.  I do this someone who has the desire to excel and is willing to put the work in could potentially exceed the "natural" who either isn't brought up in an environment that fosters their natural abilities or potentially chooses not to capitalize on what they have.  Sure, it would be nicer and easier to have the skill, then develop it, but then the tenacity that's required for someone who didn't start with that is a valuable tool in itself, particularly in the music field.  When it comes down to it, unless you had the history of a person, you might never know if it's natural or developed skill.  Certainly a combination of both exists and I think there is as much variety in personal tastes in musical connoisseurs as there are musical expressions.  In other words some might love what others can't stand to listen to. and vice versa.  For example (some here are gonna hate me for saying this), Of Mick Jagger and Queen, who has the greater skill?  I would say that queen could outrange Jagger by a mile, but it didn't keep/stop Jagger from

being among the most loved of entertainers in the music world.  My point being if it becomes a comparison thing, some real potential might never be realized and while I do believe natural inclinations do exist, I don't think they've got the corner on the music world.

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HoboSage    1,997

I don't know about musical talent or skill.  But I'm a frickin' savant at procrastinating . . . when I get around to it.

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Jenn    259
2 minutes ago, HoboSage said:

I don't know about musical talent or skill.  But I'm a frickin' savant at procrastinating . . . when I get around to it.

savant is a good word.. but "savage" is what those youngin's go 'round saying these days ... . .. . . 

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MonoStone    917
3 hours ago, Jenn said:

I've heard this disclaimed many times!!

 

Nah it's true. I took up a career in art because I can draw naturally, nobody taught me... my parents couldn't draw for toffee so they couldn't teach me and we had no art lessons as such until I went to high school, and those were useless because they just wanted us doing 'creative' stuff with coloured shapes ;)  I'm not the best artist in the world BUT I was certainly just born with an ability above average...whereas some people are born with less than average artistic ability.

 

My belief is it's not what you do with your hands when you draw that is part of the natural talent, it's what you see. And likewise I believe that a natural talent in music can come from hearing music better, and as I mentioned hearing pitch... both of those things can be learned, but both are also sometimes stronger naturally in some people than they are in others. I don't believe in 'gifted' as such... I think it's just physical and mental attributes which lend themselves to art of various types. 

 

And even things like confidence and physical appearance may play a part. You are more likely to become a rock star if you happen to look great and have confidence or charisma...and you can learn confidence to some extent and you can get a makeover to some extent, but some people are dealt a better hand than others.

 

Many factors... but certainly some things are just part of you, in your genes etc, and some things are learned. 

 

It doesn't mean that you HAVE to be naturally talented in order to find success, as long as you have the potential... but again some people just don't have the potential. I'm not going on about music stuff as I'm no expert, but we can liken it to other art...and I know for sure that there are a MASSIVE number of people parading as 'artists' who honestly can't see when something looks right or wrong, can't tell when a human looks out of proportion or when perspective in a scene is all out of whack...they just can't see it and never will...and if you can't see it you can't draw it..... and likewise if you can't hear when something is WAY out of tune then you can't sing in tune, it's a different thing to know when something is wrong or at least sense it but not know how to fix it, because then you can learn. And many, like me, are somewhere in between...miles from perfect but have enough to just about get by and maybe do something good once in a while. Some people are more dedicated and learn to be better...some people are just naturally better and don't need to work quite so hard at it..... 

 

 

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tunesmithth    1,287

Seriously...much of how an individual views this depends on their definition of 'talent".

Personally, I dislike the term because it implies a complete intangible.

 

What you've described I tend to think of as ability or potential, both of which are more easily defined & understood. 

Ability or potential an individual can nurture & develop, or chose to neglect & disregard.

Ability & potential I consider more of a head-start towards something....kind of leg-up if you prefer.

As human beings, we understand what our options are with innate ability & potential.

 

What do you do with "talent" and how does one know if they actually have it?

The whole concept is too "pie-in-the-sky" for me. ;)AND, too many damn people end up using "lack of it" as an excuse to quit before they've even put in enough time & effort to find out if they actually have it or not.

 

Tom

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MonoStone    917
41 minutes ago, tunesmithth said:

Seriously...much of how an individual views this depends on their definition of 'talent".

Personally, I dislike the term because it implies a complete intangible.

 

What you've described I tend to think of as ability or potential, both of which are more easily defined & understood. 

Ability or potential an individual can nurture & develop, or chose to neglect & disregard.

Ability & potential I consider more of a head-start towards something....kind of leg-up if you prefer.

As human beings, we understand what our options are with innate ability & potential.

 

What do you do with "talent" and how does one know if they actually have it?

The whole concept is too "pie-in-the-sky" for me. ;)AND, too many damn people end up using "lack of it" as an excuse to quit before they've even put in enough time & effort to find out if they actually have it or not.

 

Tom

Well I'm going by the definition - Talent = natural aptitude or skill. (Which is how I understood it, but I did look up the definition since you mentioned that).

 

 

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tunesmithth    1,287

I know I've said this before, but the basements of America are littered with the guitar starter-packs of kids who quit before they even found out if they could play.

Either they decided it wasn't like "Guitar Hero", or that they just didn't have the talent cause they couldn't play like they're idols after 5 or 10 lessons.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I know I sounded like absolute shit the first few months I was learning.

The difference was that I expected to ;) ... I understood going in that it would be a question of time & continual effort, NOT talent.

 

Tom 

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tunesmithth    1,287
Quote

Well I'm going by the definition - Talent = natural aptitude or skill. (Which is how I understood it, but I did look up the definition since you mentioned that).

Then that explains our inability to agree, but seriously....they define talent as skill?

If so, then we circle right back to the same sticking point.

One has to develop skill, it's not a natural gift...which is the way most people perceive "talent".

They see it as something they're born with, not something developed thru learning & effort.

Guess my disagreement is with the dictionary them....oh well, good things it really doesn't matter, eh. :rolleyes:

 

 

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tunesmithth    1,287

After a great deal of thought, I've reached the conclusion that the modern English language has way too many words with similar meanings.

How in hell are we supposed to communicate when we have 20 different words to describe the same thing?

Time for me to get off the boards for the evening folks...see y'all another day. ;) 

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MonoStone    917
10 minutes ago, tunesmithth said:

Then that explains our inability to agree, but seriously....they define talent as skill?

If so, then we circle right back to the same sticking point.

One has to develop skill, it's not a natural gift...which is the way most people perceive "talent".

They see it as something they're born with, not something developed thru learning & effort.

Guess my disagreement is with the dictionary them....oh well, good things it really doesn't matter, eh. :rolleyes:

 

 

lol probably not worth getting too far into this but... I think 'Skill' means the ability to do something, and we tend to link it with meaning things which are done well ...to a high standard... but... if a person naturally has the ability to do something well, then they already have the 'skill'. You can develop/learn a skill/ability but you can also have a natural skill/ability...  How much you can have naturally is debatable but we all have some natural skills, and some of us are just made with an advantage in or for some...

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Rudi    591

I'm with Tom on this. I understand his frustration at the literal and common usage interpretations of 'Talent'.

Common usage of the word talent has come to embrace spooky elements. To some its become synonymous with the term 'gifted' which is (IMO) an archaic and clumsy.

 

Talent: An empirical example. An athlete is described as talented. This athlete is a middle distance runner. One day she suffers an accident & has a leg amputated. The loss the limb has deprived her of her talent.

 

Talent: A non-empirical example. An opera singer might be described as 'naturally' talented. Does the talent originate from genetics (Samnite) or culture (Italian) or is it supernatural (god-given)? We don't know.



 

 

Bottom line: Jenn asked

Quote

Do you believe that people have talent or is everything based on skill?

 

My answer is please rethink the question because 'talent' and 'skill' can be synonymous. ie: there is no difference. Most people understood what she meant but I'm havng trouble with it. I think she means Innate ability vs hard work, but I could easily be wrong.

 

However I do have intuition. Example:

 

When Pahchisme Plaid compared Mick Jagger with Queen, my intuition told me she really meant Freddie Mercury instead of Queen. Though its an unlikely possibility that she might be

A/ Comparing Jagger to the whole band

or

B/ Comparing Jagger to HRH Elizabeth II

 

Language is always changing and we can usually tell when people use words in a different way.

 

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MonoStone    917
3 hours ago, Rudi said:

My answer is please rethink the question because 'talent' and 'skill' can be synonymous. ie: there is no difference. Most people understood what she meant but I'm havng trouble with it. I think she means Innate ability vs hard work, but I could easily be wrong.

 

It seems really clear to me what Jenn meant, she explained - 

 

21 hours ago, Jenn said:

Of course, this brings up the whole question of "what is talent in the first place"? To me, I guess my best definition would be the ability to naturally and effortlessly surpass adequacy in a particular subject. 

Some people are naturally good at sports, conversation, instruments, etc. 

But I've also heard the opposing argument that talent doesn't exist, and anyone who is deemed as abnormally skilled just put a lot of work into it.

 

Clearly Jenn is talking about Natural Vs learned ability. 

 

I can't see how there could be any confusion over this. I can't recall the exact text I read in Jenn's post yesterday, but I think this explanation was already there...I certainly understood it this way.

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Rudi    591
16 hours ago, MonoStone said:

I can't see how there could be any confusion over this.

 

Well Jenn does of course add her definitions, which supports what we both said, BUT... those definitions are personal to her. I cant honestly accept them prima facie.

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Richard Tracey    289

Okay, I am going to jump in here.

 

I believe some people are born with a talent for some aspects of life. It is within them when they are born. How else do you explain a very young child being a prodigy. No-one has had the time to teach them to the level it would require others to be taught to. I have seen a 5 year old play the piano as if they are a 50 year old and have been practicing most of their life. That isn't just an ability, that is a talent. Whatever way you think of the word, the rest of the world think of it as it is described in the dictionary and that is how we are brought up to think.

 

Like Dek, I could draw better than most from a young age, but stopped as I hated what they tried to teach in school, it put me off art. I had a talent for drawing people and had an eye for detail (when I was 5 I drew a picture of a submarine, but it was a cross section, with rooms, tables, chairs, people walking about etc - my teacher showed my mum as she was amazed at the detail).

 

Just think on how many times you have said, God that person is talented and then you find out it is natural and they have self taught or had no training at all. Some people have a bit of talent to start with and hone it and make themselves better, but it doesn't take away, they have something there in the first place.

 

I know I have the ability to learn the piano or play guitar if I want. I am just a lazy bugger who thinks I am too old to learn now.

 

Do you think someone who can write and compose a song with no training has talent or just ability? If the song is just, okay, does that mean they have ability, but need to learn more to make it good!!! What about the person who writes a really good, catchy track, does that mean they have talent as well as ability?

 

The problem with the word talent, is that it is banded about far too much. We have programmes on TV now trying to tell us these people are talented. I don't think what we are shown is what I would define as talent, as a lot of the acts have been learning or teaching/training for a long time. Then you might get a young child come on and sing with a voice that would melt your heart. That is talent, they haven't had time to be taught or learn that to a required level.

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Jenn    259
4 hours ago, Richard Tracey said:

We have programmes on TV now trying to tell us these people are talented. I don't think what we are shown is what I would define as talent, as a lot of the acts have been learning or teaching/training for a long time. Then you might get a young child come on and sing with a voice that would melt your heart. That is talent, they haven't had time to be taught or learn that to a required level.

I think this wraps it up pretty well. 

Like @MonoStone and @tunesmithth slightly came to agree upon, I think, is that the word "talent" is very vague and often misused. Because the child in this situation is talented, but so is the person who has been working for their entire lives for the same aptitude; I think that's how most people would perceive it. 

So I guess, there's natural talent, and learned talent.

Though... I think this was the original question in my head that I didn't know how to word correctly: Is learned talent truly a talent because it was practiced and not a natural inclination? 

 

It seems almost like a criticism if you knew someone was extremely adept at something just because they practiced it, and then just called them very skilled instead of talented. Talented has a certain prodigy-type connotation. 

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MonoStone    917
59 minutes ago, Jenn said:

Like @MonoStone and @tunesmithth slightly came to agree upon, I think, is that the word "talent" is very vague and often misused

Lol The word may be vague or misused but my post was to state the actual meaning AND your interpretation which are... the same!!

 

59 minutes ago, Jenn said:

Though... I think this was the original question in my head that I didn't know how to word correctly: Is learned talent truly a talent because it was practiced and not a natural inclination? 

 

I think we all surely got your meaning. And as I already said, in a more roundabout way, as with many things in life....it's a bit of both...somewhere in-between ...

 

But again, I do believe in natural talent...and I think there are examples.

 

Look at Tim Buckley and Jeff Buckley. I believe Jeff definitely had a head start by inheriting some of his father's vocal qualities. Whether he inherited a songwriting ability is more of a stretch I think, it's more likely that being born to a famous songwriter pushed him in that direction (although I've read it pushed him away from it for a time), but I feel like the vocal similarities are physical... he was just born with great vocal ability, or at least incredible potential vocal ability, which only needed to be unlocked. And I think his general musical ability was likely also largely natural and inherited. And based on this I think Tim was probably naturally talented too. 

 

If you doubt that, think about less impressive family similarities. When I laugh I hear my Dad's voice (freaks me out) and last week I had a phone call with a business associate of my Brother, and he commented on how strange it was since he thought I sounded exactly like my brother. We all share very similar vocal qualities, and that doesn't seem strange because most families share similarities in the way they look and sound. BUT IF vocal qualities happen to sound really good to everyone else when you sing, then that counts as a natural talent.... and that's kind of unfair lol... I mean Jeff not only inherited his dad's vocal quality he also inherited his rock star facial bone structure... 

 

EDIT - After writing this I thought I'd look further into it, and in this Jeff says himself...it's just the voice of every man in the family, handed down...

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by MonoStone

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HoboSage    1,997

Maybe talent is undefinable yet recognizable like pornography was for Justice Potter Stewart: "I know it when I see it."

 

 

Edited by HoboSage

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starise    403

Lots to ponder here. 

 

The end results are what everyone looks at. They don't really care how you get there. Most people who are seen as talented have done a lot of work to get there, even with a lot of natural ability.

 

You can sing and seem to have a good handle on vocal pitch. I've met a few classically trained vocalists. Their training usually makes them rigid to sing other kinds of music. Not always but usually. Vocal lessons teach you how to breathe when singing, how to develop your range and increase stamina. Some people can do most of that naturally without being told how. Some need to be told all of it.. Some of the best singers I've ever heard never had a lesson.

 

I think if you have the natural ability you will sharpen it. Everyone already has some ability. Most people know what it is from a fairly young age. In this sense , yes it's innate. I don't think I've ever met anyone who was deluded to think they had an ability they didn't really posses. I have seen people try to do things to find out what they are good at. I've even seen a few people do fairly well at something they weren't really cut out to do. They can't keep up the pretense for long though. Eventually the bottom falls out.

 

You are Talented Jenn. Plus, how many people would be so into this at your age? This shows you have the drive and the interest. Where this might take you is another thing altogether. It might look like it's going nowhere to the world, but if you enjoy it, don'y give up. It's a part of who you are!

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symphonious7    206

If I couldn't just ride off of natural talent, and had to actually WORK at my music?  I don't think I'd be a musician.... I'm waaaaay too lazy for that....  

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Just1L    961
On August 11, 2017 at 2:33 PM, Jenn said:

But I've also heard the opposing argument that talent doesn't exist, and anyone who is deemed as abnormally skilled just put a lot of work into it.

 

In my case I'll just substitute "talent" with "natural ability". Anyone that claims natural ability doesn't exist is cuckoo in my opinion. I would actually question anything else they had to say. Some people start out good at things and some people suck at things naturally. Sometimes you can practice all you want but at the end of the day you'll still suck. Case in point. I know several people that have been using computers for well over 15 years but damn, they still have no control over how to use a mouse. They continually, accidentally, pull files into the trash, pull apps out of the menu bar, etc… After 15 years of daily use, still don't have the ability to use the mouse. Every facet of life involves innate abilities in one way or the other. My opinion has always been to try and find what you are naturally good at and like, and develop the hell out of it. So then, at the professional level of things I would say that those that have gotten there have gotten there through hard work, perseverance, etc… but that doesn't mean they didn't start out with a natural ability in what they are doing. 

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symphonious7    206
1 minute ago, Just1L said:

 

In my case I'll just substitute "talent" with "natural ability". Anyone that claims natural ability doesn't exist is cuckoo in my opinion. I would actually question anything else they had to say. Some people start out good at things and some people suck at things naturally. Sometimes you can practice all you want but at the end of the day you'll still suck. Case in point. I know several people that have been using computers for well over 15 years but damn, they still have no control over how to use a mouse. They continually, accidentally, pull files into the trash, pull apps out of the menu bar, etc… After 15 years of daily use, still don't have the ability to use the mouse. Every facet of life involves innate abilities in one way or the other. My opinion has always been to try and find what you are naturally good at and like, and develop the hell out of it. So then, at the professional level of things I would say that those that have gotten there have gotten there through hard work, perseverance, etc… but that doesn't mean they didn't start out with a natural ability in what they are doing. 

Yeah like I said, I only ride off my natural ability, I don't have the patience to study and learn and watch tutorials, but I WISH I did.  You can HEAR in my music how it's all natural ability, because nothing sounds.... professional from an executional standpoint.   Like... I can do whatever I need to do, but I don't get those magical tones from my guitar playing, I can't do basic things that most people learned from their first few guitar lessons cause I jumped right into solos, so my strumming rhythm is all over the place, like... I wish I HAD some of that training to sort of polish up what I do, and I think that people with natural ability would always be wise to study what we know about the craft.  But I've been doing it one way for so long I don't think there's any hope for me going back and getting the basics down haha

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Do you believe in talent? Hmmm...

 

How does it matter if I believe in someone else's talent? I have no control over the level of success they can achieve with it. 

 

Do I believe in my own talent? Now, that's something to deeply ponder about... because in all probability, I don't (the "I" here is referred to the average collective "I" across billions of people who are born with some unique abilities). I'm either ignorant about my gifts or - more likely - I know I have them but I take them for granted. Just like I take all the good, steady things in my life for granted and start valuing them more once they're gone.

 

Precisely why there is so much of support for the not-so-gifted ones who work ten times harder to achieve perhaps only a certain fraction of what the gifted ones can easily bring to realization (Of course, I'm not against hard workers... but it's an interesting observation).

 

If only all the talented people in the world would wake up...

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GuesSs    4

I definitely think natural born talent exists. Some people can sing naturally while others may need work. If talent didn't exist there wouldn't be child prodigy's who can play instruments at such phenomenally high level at such a young age. However, I think the old saying that hardwork beats talent when talent doesn't work hard speaks volumes. I think if you work hard enough at whatever it is you're trying to achieve you can easily surpass naturally talented people that have the same drive as you. 

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Rudi    591
1 hour ago, symphonious7 said:

eah like I said, I only ride off my natural ability, I don't have the patience to study and learn and watch tutorials, but I WISH I did.  You can HEAR in my music how it's all natural ability,

I thought you were joking before!

 

Wow, that just sounds so arrogant ;)

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symphonious7    206
1 hour ago, Rudi said:

I thought you were joking before!

 

Wow, that just sounds so arrogant ;)

Well you can look at it that way, but it's not all good you know.   Yes I have a propensity to pick up an instrument and be able to do stuff with it, but the fact that I don't have the drive or discipline to LEARN foundational concepts, makes everything sloppy, and it never really... I can't even strum an acoustic guitar with the same feeling as your average 4 chord guitarist, I always just bang out rhythms, when it comes time to finesse... I have no finesse...   And solo wise I can't really progress, because I've learned everything wrong and I have no way of getting back.  Without holding my pick right or knowing how to play for tone, it kind of all sounds... amateur.  And i wasn't lying about my breathing when I sing, I've always wished I could go back and get vocal lessons in my teens because I am often gasping in my takes, and straining, and I think that's cause I don't know proper stance and breathing etc.  

 

So I mean... see it how you want, but I sure haven't had any hit records from my lack of studying and learning....  Just a whole bunch of amateurish demos...

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symphonious7    206

My focus was more on "I have relied too MUCH on my natural ability" Not "It's why I'm so great" hehehe

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