How Do I Know What Key I'm In?

Donna · December 7, 2006

For my own songs, I mean.

I'm just kinda having bits and pieces of info from looong ago floating around, trying to recall anything pertinent. I didn't play anything melodic then, when I was in music theory (this is called a handicap!)

t/y

Rudi · December 7, 2006

I havnt given this too much thought yet, but here are a couple of ideas:

1/ What chord do you finish on? The root & third of the chord is most likely the key (ie: if its a F# minor, that will be the key, if its a B major, that will be the key).

2/ How does the verse/chorus resolve? Chances are you are singing one of the 3 notes that comprise the chord of the key.

3/ Examine the chord structure of the tune. A typical 3 chord trick will have the Root (tonic), Sub-Dominant (4th) and Dominant (5th) at the heart of the song structure. Im not suggesting that your songs are this but its a good rule of thumb to go on.

Examine the scale of each of the chords in your song and find where the other chords relate to them. Most of the time you will find a 5th is the root of one of the other chords, and much of the time a 4th is the root of another. So if your tune is in C, the 5th will be G, and the 4th will be F.

Show us the chord pattern of a song & we can have a guess!

Steve · December 7, 2006

A very good pianist I once met told me you could find the key of vitually any song quite simply by finding the third note of the melody! That will give you the root! You should be able to decide if it's a major or minor key! This has saved my bacon a few times when depping with bands!

Donna · December 7, 2006

hee hee Steve.

Rudi, I actually wrote out what the chorus progressions were, but then decided not to post 'em. All 3 configurations looked DAFT to me, a dom and sub dominant in sight w/ one possibility...but a iii in there as well?

Unless I'm totally off in figuring.

The song fades out (of course) so no ending chord...if playing live, we'd fade! (j/k 1/2 way). I think either D or E...or C for the left-ambiguous ending.

Anyway: E - D - C - D - E

key of E: I - vii - vi - vii - I

key of A: V - IV - iii - IV - V

key of D: II - I - vii - I - II

I guessed "D"...it looked the least weird of progressions, at least there's tonic, and something about the 7th made me think, "yeah 7 resolving... to tonic". That's the thing, it doesn't sound weird, resolves naturally and all, kinda hook-ish - only looks weird.

Your suggestion on finding the closest thing to a chorus of I IV V, or II V I etc; was the method I decided upon, before I posted (as well as taking into account beginning chord).

(Side note: That...little project I've been doing for months...it was through scoring that I seriously began to wonder if the key is C, tho C is certainly not the focal chord. I had to go back and naturalize all the #'s and stuff in key sig and throughout, because I realized thru playing that there were NO accidentals, and that sucker should have been riddled w/ F#'s...what are the modes...perhaps it's an alien - I mean aolean - mode. Right? Isn't that no accidentals...and something about the I [C] to the VI [A]...IIRC)

Donna · December 7, 2006

PS...the vs resolves on:

key of E: vi

key of A: iii

key of D: vii

No help there!

Donna · December 7, 2006

Steve, 3rd note of melody is...B.

so chorus: IV - iii - ii - iii - IV

hmmmm.

End chord'd be IV (E) iii (D) or ii ©

Vs resolve on ii.

Maybe we're into secondary dominant analysis..Hey! Maybe B "is" the secondary dominant...it would be for key of E.

Key of D, the secondary dominant would be E, right back where we started wiff the I - vii - vi. Oh I give up, I got a barely passing grade in secondary dominants.

?? The chords are major, the progressions are minor...so the key follows what the chords, not progression is? Major?

Edited December 7, 2006 by Donna

December 7, 2006

D;

Your root (or TONIC) note is next to your third in a major or minor triad (three note chord 1-3-5), which is major or minor.

How I determine a key is by playing it out on a keyboard and seeing which tone makes it major or minor. Then, if it's minor, the root will be 1.5 steps below that. If major, it will be two full steps.

Simple example: If the chord becomes major or minor by moving the E to E flat the root is C because E is the third (E flat 1.5 steps from C root, E natural two full steps) hence the root or tonic note is C.

This is how I do it.

Hope this helps

JB

Donna · December 7, 2006

I'm sure it will at some point. I do it the same way, but simply go from root to minor third. If there's a minor third, it's minor (that is the definition of a minor chord IIRC).

But you're right...since we're trying to find the tonic, going bakwards makes sense. (pause for dong the math)

I have made a judgement, then! The key is D Major.

I think.

Donna · December 7, 2006

Yes...it may well be D. That vs. would then resolve on the vii...right logically straight up to...the II!?

I wonder how that can SO not work on paper, but be so logical in the hearing of it.

Although, something perhaps to revist and ponder...the secondary dominant thing. Thank God for wholesome things to wrap the mind around and you all to converse about it with.

*thou dost more good than thou knowest*

Edited December 7, 2006 by Donna

December 7, 2006

If there's a D, F# and A in it, it's a D Major.

My favorite chords are Major 7 chords.

JB

Edited December 7, 2006 by voclizr

Lazz · December 9, 2006

Anyway: E - D - C - D - E
key of E: I - vii - vi - vii - I

key of A: V - IV - iii - IV - V

key of D: II - I - vii - I - II

perhaps it's an alien - I mean aolean - mode. Right? Isn't that no accidentals...

Seems mispellings misrepresent what's going on here Donna

Try these instead:

key of E: I - bVII - bVI - bVII - I

key of A: V - IV - bIII - IV - V

key of D: II - I - bVII - I - II

Anyway…..

If it was in the Key of E, you'd have four sharps happening - F#, C# G#, and D#.

That doesn't seem to fly compatibly with the other two triads.

If it was the Key of A, then that'd give you three sharps - F#, C#, and G#.

Still got problems of fit with the C triad.

If it was the key of D, you’d have two sharps – F# and C#.

Again – that would seem to knock the plain C triad out the play.

But then you say you have no accidentals happening at all …. !!

So the answer can be none of the above.

My guess is that your tendency towards the Aeolian is the right way to think.

That would be the tones of a Major scale but starting and finishing on the sixth degree.

Using just the notes of C Major – as, with no accidentals, you appear to be doing – this means my money goes on the Key of A minor.

But this would then suggest to me that the chords would be not as you gave ‘em, but rather more probably:

E minor – D minor – C – D minor – E minor.

And if I was personally spelling that more explicitly it would become:

Em7b9 – Dm7 – CM7 – Dm7 – Em7b9

So that’s my guess – A minor.

And if you sing around with the melody notes flapping and the note A is the one that ‘feels’ and ‘hears’ to you like it’s ‘home’, then I think we’ve maybe hit the bullseye.:

And then the numbers you wrote would come right, of course - it would be V - IV - iii - IV - V

Not that this necessarily has anything to do with the question, but it may turn up something useful and interesting:

From my end of the pitch, it's always the third and seventh which define the chord.

I would tend never waste time to actually voice either the root or the fifth anyway.

(The fifth is just naturally implied by the root - and this is the bass-players' role - why would I want to duplicate it?)

What this ends up meaning, if you're using three or four fingers to hold down strings, and two of them are holding the defining notes, is that you're free to add all kinds appropriate colour at will and choice - like the 6th(13th) or 4th(11th) or 9th.

I particularly like voicing 4-7-3 or 7-3-6 because of the chunky sound of fourths.

But I digress too far, perhaps.....

If you are working in in A minor, then bass-player would be covering the A and the E notes and so you'd be free to use a G triad in place of your E triad.

Try it out.

And throw it away if it doesn't work.

It also seems, from the deafness of this great distance, that you might even wield a Gb triad in place of the C triad.

So then you could end up going Em - F7 - Gb7 - F7 - Em.

The C triad and E minor triad are pretty interchangeable, too.

So you could go G7 - F7 - Em - F7 - G7 also.

Still essentially the same.

Magic of substitutions

Bottom line - if it sounds good to ear - then it's just perfect,

Whatever key you call it.

I dislike sharp keys

Edited December 9, 2006 by Lazz

Donna · December 9, 2006

Lazz,

Your post knocks me out! Thank you so much. It deserves a better brain than I have at the moment...here's an instance also where the failure (mine) to have been imbued with, eg, the cycle of 5ths, makes for some heavier homework, when my answers should be cursory knowledge, easily given.

So...you young drummers, don't thumb up the nose at learning piano when the 'rents urge you to. At least learn the xylophone! You'll be way ahead then when years later you wish to compose, or many other things.

I'll come back on this when able.

Donna

(JB: yeah...d f# a - D major, got ya)

Nick · December 12, 2006

It's a bit like Hey Joe but missing the chords in between - ie C (G) D (A) E where the E is probably an E5 rather than being an E or an Eminor.

Hendrix soloes over the song using an E blues/pentatonic scale mostly and alternates in the song between playing a 'G' over the E chord and sometimes giving it a 1/4 bend and sometimes bending it all the way to G#. The playing of a G against an E chord happens all the time in blues and jazz.

The chords before the E chord definitely move towards E as the 'centre' of the tune.

If you take an Irish fiddle tune like Lanigan's Ball which is in Em. It will work against the following set of chords Em (or E5) D C in parts but again has it's 'centre' around E.

So some flavour of E is where my money is.

In your original post you said the chords that work were C D E - it does tend to suggest that there's an F# lurking otherwise the D chord would sound a little weird in this context if you have any F's in the tune

(If you want to read a really hefty thing on this sort of stuff try the following link with the wonderful title of - "Characteristics of Heavy Metal Chord Structures - Their acoustic and modal construction and relation to modal and tonal context" - on page 36 (!) there is a discussion on the structure of Hey Joe which might or might not be relevant.

The suggestion there is that Hey Joe is in an Aeolian mode (root - tone - semitone - tone - tone - semitone - tone - tone) which would give the following notes E F# G A B C D E.

If you do use the F rather than F# I think that would make it a Phrygian mode and would give it a sound that most people associate with Spanish/Flamenco. If you play down the following notes on the guitar E D C B A G F E and end with a mock flamenco strum alternating between an F chord and an E chord you get the flavour of Phrygian modes.

Most of the above may of course be bollocks, of course

There is also an interesting article about modes in Scottish music but also have some information about the relevance of modes on harmonising tunes (interesting chap who wrote it too BTW) - Scottish modal music

Edited December 12, 2006 by Nick

Donna · December 12, 2006

Hey Nick,

Another powerhouse, I see

My apologies....but that side note in a post up there, about the no accidentals song? That is not the song I am asking about. And I neglected to make that clear til now.

Otherwise, yeah...phrygian or SOMETHING.

Thanks for all the info, Nick, which I find very interesting - esp. the anyalysis of he metal stuff! Um...does your opinion still stand (pointing toward E) if the F#'s are intact (which they are, chord-wise)?

Nick · December 13, 2006

Thanks for all the info, Nick, which I find very interesting - esp. the anyalysis of he metal stuff! Um...does your opinion still stand (pointing toward E) if the F#'s are intact (which they are, chord-wise)?

I would guess so - though I'm less sure of what I'm commenting on now!

If it was Am it would be curious to have a tune harmonised with no reference to the main chord that your ear would be drawn to - or it would seem that way to me. You would have a song which never resolves itself through the whole tune which would be a little curious. I can't think of a tune which never includes the chord of the key it's in (someone prove me wrong, there probably is one)

There are quite a lot of tunes that I can think of that have C D E as chords which are in the key of E - though often with the last being minor (All Along the Watchtower is another that comes to mind) and a lot which go C Dm Em (I Shall be Released) where the C is the key.

James Anderson · November 30, 2012

to me scales never learned me nothing about music when i compose a melody i can always hear the chords that go with it but until i find the right inversion to play the other inversions sound wrong i suspect most songs will be in more than one key some being major some being minor and some parts being ambigious to being major or minor

TapperMike · December 17, 2012

E - D - C - D - E

Key of G

Em is the relative minor of G a common principle in jazz is to make the vi chord a dominant7 Such as in the every popular

I-VI7-ii7-V7

Stormy Weather, More and countless other standards use this progression. Yes I know E7 does contain G# not G.

In Rock we use a lot of power chords. In the traditional sense power chords are not really chords because chords require three distinctly separate notes. What they are is diads or double stops if you are a violinist. However we treat them as chords, and due to the ambiguous nature of the chord being neither major nor minor It allows greater supplication. Rock and blues often mix and match major and minors in our "licks",.

Quite a number of Steely Dan Songs have a C-D-E progression. I used to know them all by heart but cant recall which ones right now.

Earlier today I was playing some Brian Adams on the guitar. (don't shoot me) This Time. The Chorus is A-D-G-E which doesn't fit nicely into one key either. I'm not a professional musicologist but I did notice a dramatic change in how progressions were implemented during the 60's/. First in the works of Eric Clapton then by others. If you look at all the chords in "Sunshine of your love" D-F-G-A-C You get the minor pentatonic scale

The verse goes D-C-DD then G-F-GG The turn around as it were is A-C-G. He took the minor pentatonic and applied all major chords to form his progression. He's not the only one. Back in the U.S.S.R the verse goes A-A-C-D. Rick Derringer's Rock and Roll Hotchie Koo and several songs from the 60~80 employed this method of deriving chord progressions by modes of the pentatonic scale.

So the question becomes how do you treat a progression that does not conform to our traditional sense of key?

There are two paths. One involves dissonance and consonance as a form of resolution and the other involves modality as defined by Charlie Parker's take on bebop.

Consonance means all sounds well together. Dissonance means "Something that's not right" or a "blue" note. Blue notes are not limited to the blues scale. With dissonance you have tension. Since things are moving along in time it's easy to make dissonance become consonance because the chord changes to something that supports the underlying note. Ever notice the first few measures of Stairway to Heaven. It starts on an Aminor chord which is consonant then moves to a chord thats G#CEB which is dissonant then goes to a C chord C-E-G-C which is consonant. The same can be done with writing a melody that agrees with certain chords then has a slight disagreement because the chord changed (not the melodic line) then has a resolution because the chord changed again to something Connosant and the melody resolved itself by doing nothing.

There is much disagreement on the term Modality and modes. What I'm about to present is not in the classical definition of modality. Charlie Parker took a direction that stated.... You are never that far from an arpeggio and while you don't want to strictly play arppegios during a solo you want a connection to the chord movement. In order to do so you can use "chromaticism"

Though not in the same sense as Say Beethoven's Carmen. Instead he postulated neighboring and passing tones. Tones that were near chord tones or that connected chord tones from one chord to another. His concept was sound enough and even though his own interpertains may seem rough lets remember that he was the pioneer. A more prevalent example would be the B section of Take Five by Paul Desmond as made famous by his bandleader the great Dave Bruebeck. In it he uses chromaticism to connect the dots of the arpeggios to one another. Even today a great number of students in jazz and fusion study outlining chord tones (Usually the third and the 7th of the chord) as a means of constructing fluid solo's. I did a tutorial on constructing "more fluid" basslines by this paint by numbers connect the dots method here -

http://www.tappermike.com/?q=node/4 While the lesson was about bass and therefore focused on landing on the root of the chord on beat one it can easily be applied to any instrument.

Another thing to think about is simply committing a note here or there in a solo. Then it can become a target note to resolve things at the end and stand out more when it is finally played because of it's previous absence. Let's assume you have something in the key of C. If you use the E minor pentatonic scale you've got a nice five note range that is easy to sing will support the song,,, employ consonance/dissonance while working over the ii and IV chord and still have something to hold out from so when you finally do play that C note over a C chord you will have built up a sense of longing for it and a sense of resolution when it finally arrives.

There are plenty of ways to skin a cat and at first a new way may seem odd and you may be uncomfortable with it. However the more you play in a new way the more comfortable you will become with it which will increase your confidence while playing it and make you sound better as a result.

note: No cats were harmed in the writing of this post