Midi Trouble

[ophelius]

I have a midi piano but when I send music to my sequencer (FL Studio), it doesn't send the data properly. Here's a sample of some music directly from my piano:

http://www.mediafire.com/file/dy0o2iwouwm/FromPiano.mp3

And here is the same song which was sent to the sequencer:

http://www.mediafire.com/file/inktwyzluv0/ToSeq.mp3

You'll notice there's choppyness. My latency is at 2ms so it's not that. I've checked my midi settings thoroughly but can't figure it out.

If you look at this picture:

http://www.mediafire.com/file/rnzrniwmlzd/PianoRoll.bmp

you will see that the notes are not coming in complete. The circled notes should be the same length as its neighbors. Anybody have any clue why it does this? Thanks

[Steve]

I put this here because it was 10 times the size of your MP3 files. Try to put images up as jpgs or giff. Much smaller.

Not sure I have any answers to your problem! Have you another application you can use to test the midi connection? If not, have a look here. Try one of these apps to see if you get the same problem. If you do, the problem will more than likely be with your keyboard or it's connections. If not, then the problem is more likely to be with your application.

[john]

Hi

I guess it depends on how you are doing the transfer. Looks like you are having a synchronization issue.

What are your midi synchronization settings? I assume your electric piano is the timing master and you have set up MTC & SPP (midi time code, song position pointer). Is the FL Studio set to get it's time clock externally? Obviously you change this back after transfer once FL Studio is the master again.

if it is just track transfer you should be able to do a midi data dump to your PC too, though if I were you getting to the bottom of your sync issue would be an important thing.

Once I know exactly how you are transferring your track i can give a more accurate answer.

Cheers

John

[ophelius]

I don't think it's a sync issue. I think the notes that get chopped are the ones that fall when I'm pumping the sustain pedal. It doesn't happen to all the notes, just some of them. It's really weird. But, it might also be some little setting somewhere, who knows.

[john]

Hey

So how are FL and your piano set up for the transfer? MMC? MTC? SMPTE? SSP? Midi Clock? Which is set as master?

Sync can cause all kinds of errors.

It is unlikely to be your pedal. Notes are governed by note on and note off messages, your pedal is a midi control message which is quite a different beast:

http://recording.songstuff.com/articles.php?selected=55

It might be worth checking the midi message view of your track to see exactly how the data is being corrupted. I.e. are note off messages (or note one with velocity set to zero) being inserted in the track? exactly how are the notes being terminated? If you are not sure you can decipher this please post up your track as the collection of midi messages and highlight the notes being clipped to make it easier to navigate. Ideal if you could do this with the original too but I can understand that this might not be practical depending on your keyboard.

Can I ask why you think it isn't a sync issue? What is your reasoning?

Cheers

John

[ophelius]

I tested with a live midi connection and found out that the pedal is less sensitive when sending data in midi mode when the pedal is being released at the same time a note is played. So that's why occasionly some of the notes are sent as not having a sustain. But when I play normally without being connected, it doesn't do that. But that doesn't explain why the recording on the piano sounds fine and the same recording that was sent has some notes with the sustained removed. I'm not too familiar with midi technology so I'm a bit confused on what to look for concerning your sync theory. I don't know how to extract the midi messages from my recording. I would send you the midi file, but i would need a floppy drive on my computer. If you're still convinced it's not the pedal, then I'll try to gather more info about my midi settings. Thanks for your help

[john]

Hi

Your sustain pedal should not affect note length. Note length is controlled by note on, or note on and off messages. Sustain pedals should use the sustain control message. If it is adjusting note lengths then the midi controller responsible for the sustain pedal is working incorrectly or has a very poor implementation of the midi specification.

You don't mention if when playing connected the sound being generated is generated by your piano or on your PC.

What make and model is your piano?

I would say that if you are attempting midi transfer by playback of one sequencer and recording another, and you have not set up midi sync at both ends correctly, or simply used the default sequencer setting in each sequencer then they are very likely not set up correctly. For a start FL Studio should be set as the timing slave and the correct mode would need to be selected.

Steve's point is a valid area to look at, but if you are running with default settings I would check out sync first off.

To check your sync settings in FL Studio go to settings/midi. Ensure that send master sync is disabled in this window. You will also see "synchronization type" it's probably set to "midi clock". Whatever this is set to it should match the synchronization type setting in your piano.

Generally, when syncing sequencers and multi-track recorders use MTC. When controlling synths use MIDI clocks. To control other sequencers you use whichever works. Many drum machines, for example, won't accept SMPTE. Many multi track recorders will not accept MIDI clocks. Some devices won't accept MMC at all. Others will allow themselves to be an MMC master but not a slave. Usually, there is one combination that will work, but don't bank on it. Some devices do not work at all.

My guess is that you should use MTC for this transfer, probably in conjunction with MMC. (MTC is midi time code and MMC is Midi Machine Control, the first sending timing information, the later implementing transport control sync).

I would suggest selecting MMC and MTC on both, make one device the MMC master and the other end sends out the MTC code. That way when you press play on one sequencer the other starts playing too. Note it is the MMC slave that sends out the MTC code.

Hope this helps.

Cheers

John

[ophelius]

You don't mention if when playing connected the sound being generated is generated by your piano or on your PC.

The sound is generated by FL.

What make and model is your piano?

Technics SX-PR700

I tried all possible configurations for sync clock. There's only 2 on my piano, Midi and Internal. FL has Midi and diffrent MTC fps drop/non-drop settings. Master sync from FL is disabled. There's even midi setting presets on my piano. I tried selecting the one where my piano is Master and an outside sequencer is slave. I mean, it works fine, but there's those really annoying cuts in the sustains. I'm ready to give up on this. Maybe it's my old outdated piano that can't keep up with a modern sequencer. It's ok when I'm using it to place notes in FL, but for live piano recording, it doesn't work well (that is, using the sequencer(FL) as the recording device). Thanks guys for all your help, especially you John. I checked out your webpage. You have quite the experience. I want to get into audio engineering as well. Do you recommend and great schools, preferably in canada?

Edited November 22, 2008 by ophelius

[john]

Hey

No problem. Glad to help.

For your sustain problem, check that "Support Hold and Sostenuto" is enabled on the FL Studio Settings/Midi page.

On your sync problem remember it wont work if both sides do not match.

Try setting FL Studio as the timing master. That means enabling MIDI Master Sync in Options menu and checking the Send Master sync on the settings/midi page and selecting midi clock as an initial sync type.

Your SX manual is typically not great in terms of explaining what timing model is hidden behind the controls. Either way try setting your SX to external clock. for now keep real time messages off.

Now try.

Not working? ok try MTC as the FL Studio sync type and try again.

if midi clock worked as the source try enabling real time messages in your SX and set your FL Studio for clock and SSP.

If MTC worked in some fashion try enabling MTC and mMC slave in FL Studio and set your SX to use realtime messages.

Those are the most likely combinations that I think might just work.

Cheers

John

PS sorry I don't of any Canadian schools that I know enough of to recommend

[ophelius]

-It's not the generator because others do the same thing.

-the pedal is plugged correctly

-There is no quantization on input going on.

-I've added more voices past what get's used, still not fixed.

-I'll have to check into the midi overdubbing.

Thanks for the suggestions

[ophelius]

The midi cable is connected to my M-Audio 1010LT midi port and I've tried using other DAWs. The pedal expressions are all recorded together with themusic on the piano initially. Then, I playback the song while recording on the computer sequencer. I'm assuming the pedal is fine because on the piano itself the recording sounds fine. Never experienced this on the piano itself. So I'm guessing a sync issue. Probably some little setting somewhere. I've tried all combinations already, no luck. It could be the m-audio sound card's midi port. I am exchanging it for an external one soon. I don't think the model i'm getting has midi ports, so I'll get an external usb midi interface. Maybe that will work. I'll cross my fingers.

Edited November 27, 2008 by ophelius

[john]

Hey

In case you missed it from my previous post...

"For your sustain problem, check that "Support Hold and Sostenuto" is enabled on the FL Studio Settings/Midi page."

Is this the case?

Cheers

John

[ophelius]

Ya it's enabled, otherwise there wouldn't be any sustain at all. There's only a few random spots during the transfer that gets cut out, otherwise it sounds fine. It seems it's when the pedal gets released at the same time the note is played. It sustains it fine on the piano end, but not after the transfer. Not to worry if you give up on this thread. I've given up on this issue for now. My music project is done anyways. I'll be posting my new cd within a few days on this board. Cheers

[Steve]

Did you try another app? Another keyboard? I always like to eliminate the simple things before I go delving into the unknown!

[FinnArild]

The piano roll looks a bit like the end of notes for the other notes chops off the new notes when you play legato.

- Could you have set up a midi loop of sorts for the pedal? The pedal sends quite a lot of CC changes that might saturate everything if it's looped, not getting the midi notes through.

- Is the sequencer timed from your keyboard or internally - timing issues could cause such effects

- Is your midi drivers set up correctly? Check for updates?

- Are your cables all right?