Lyrics On Random

[Boff]

I'm having some problems with my co-writer, so I thought we could have a little discussion so that I can convince him (and myself) about this. I should start off by saying that we write some kind of alternative metal.

He wants me to write lyrics in a way that allows him (who does the melodies and arrangements) to shuffle parts of the lyrics so that it fits the melody he has come up with. He's not going to just mix it up beyond all recognition, he wants to do it in a way that allows the listener to still understand the general feeling and message of the song. I told him that different parts have different purposes, generally speaking the verses provide some background information, gives you understanding of the meaning of the chorus, etc.

Now, since I generally don't write the story kind of lyrics, do you think it's ok for him to shuffle parts around a bit?

Would you allow a co-writer to change the order of different parts in your lyrics?

[Nightwolf]

For my Lyrics anyway order is important, not to say written in stone, but I would request final approval for any and all moves made. As long as he is concerned about the lyrics making sense and pays attention to that you should bee ok, who knows they might even make more sense

[Steve]

I have had several collaborations with lyricists, and each time, I have had to make some minor adjustments to the lyric to fit the melody I've adopted. The musical score is the difficult part of the process and tends to be more regimented in it's execution. Therefore, I'd say a little leeway may be in order. If you don't like what he does with your lyric, you can always try a work round from his perspective!

[Inngr8]

As a lyricist, I've had the same problem with my collaboration buddy. Sometimes it's a matter of a couple of words here or there to make a good fit to the music. In one case he insisted on moving verses around and after 7 revisions the song was unrecognizable. He did learn that it wasn't something he wanted to do after the fact, too much trouble. And now I'm very insistent about having a valid reason to change stuff. Have him send a draft of what he wants to do - if the changes are too radical, custom write a new song to fit the melodies right from the beginning. I hate having to sacrifice lyrics to the knife to accommodate the composer - in the majority of cases, lyrics drive the music and not the other way around. If he has a great tune, it deserves words written for it rather than having to cut and paste something to make it fit. That's what I do now with compositions my partner provides.

Phil

[Boff]

As a lyricist, I've had the same problem with my collaboration buddy. Sometimes it's a matter of a couple of words here or there to make a good fit to the music. In one case he insisted on moving verses around and after 7 revisions the song was unrecognizable. He did learn that it wasn't something he wanted to do after the fact, too much trouble. And now I'm very insistent about having a valid reason to change stuff. Have him send a draft of what he wants to do - if the changes are too radical, custom write a new song to fit the melodies right from the beginning. I hate having to sacrifice lyrics to the knife to accommodate the composer - in the majority of cases, lyrics drive the music and not the other way around. If he has a great tune, it deserves words written for it rather than having to cut and paste something to make it fit. That's what I do now with compositions my partner provides.

Phil

I don't mind a few words, but he might use line 1 and 3 from the chorus, and just cut away the rest, because he wants the singing to be heavy, and there can't be to much words. He can cut a part in half (where the second half alludes to the first) and put something else between them. I'm not sure about custom writing for a melody, I really don't think I'm good enough for more limitations.

[Lazz]

in the majority of cases, lyrics drive the music and not the other way around.

My position, as the lyricist part of songwiting collaborations, is completely opposite.

In my world, it is the music, the sound, which carries the song every time.

That's the way I work.

Having said that, though, Boff, none of my collaborators take a chainsaw or butcher's knife to my work.... Maybe a scalpel with permission, maybe they say 'I don't like that bit: that couplet could be better" (and they're always right), maybe they say 'the logic of the melody is asking for an extra couple of syllables here', or 'this is lovely so far but I the song would be improved by having an extra developing section'. They are always right. They are never fooling. I always say yes. No problem. And never say no.

Your situation is totally different.

Adopting your work for his own cut-and-paste re-creation seems to lumber towards abuse.

That is not to say that playing with word collages can't be a fun and productive technique but personally, when I wrestle with a lyric, delivery of cut-and-paste fodder sure isn't my intention. I think I would be deeply offended by that. But I also think that if the result was wondrously convincing, I would be humbled easily and change my mind readily.

That result is not happening here, is it ?

Maybe you should try starting with the music first.

And/or maybe he's just not the right guy for you.

[Boff]

That's what I think, some small changes is ok, but not major ones just to fit his idea. The thing is my collaborator is the drummer of our band, I don't really have an option (except from maybe learning to write melodies myself). He is really great at writing songs, both melody and arangement (and the whole recording process with mastering and all), his only weakness is sticking with the original lyrics.

Well, I don't really see any improvement with the changes he's making, it's more like.. The lyrics are getting harder to understand, but he can get more emotion out of it because he gets certain parts as he wants them.

I'll try to talk to him some more about trying to stick with the lyrics I've written, or maybe do the changes WITH me instead of when I'm not around.

Thanks for all of the great thoughts by the way! I think I'm gonna try to put something up here soon, I haven't done that in some time now..

Edited November 27, 2008 by Boff