Brass sound live audio recording.

[Pops]

OK!!! Can I get someone that plays trumpet and works with cubase  for some knowledgable solutions on how to get the rich and mellow sound of this instrument recorded. Midi ingeneers please abstain I need someone that records live Audio especially brass instruments..... I am presently working with vst32, a behringer mic B-1 and a Delta audio buddy mic preamp direct box.

Regards  Pop'S

[davlan]

Hey Pops!

Don't get grumpy; people were trying to be helpful. It's difficult to be precise about a complex recording issue when you're not actually there.

See if there's anything helpful at either of these:

http://abel.hive.no/oj/musikk/trompet/tpin.../recording.html

http://www.akg.com/products/product_tipps/....html?flashgo=1

I have never specifically recorded trumppet but with your quality of equipment I would have thought you should get a fairly good sound straight off; and not the frustrating nasal sound. In that case you might have a hardware issue (rather than a technique issue). John's reply was designed to show how to localise the problem.

However I am a long term Cubase user. If you have any specific queries with how to work the software I'll do what I can.

Best

Dave Lang

[john]

Hey Pops

Thanks for such unbounding appreciation for the suggestions you were given by the Songstuff BB members.  You're too kind.

Dave's right, the suggestions were provided to help you isolate the source of the sound colouration. As I am not in your studio , nor anyone else on the BB, you're going to have to answer the diagnostic questions yourself. Until you can answer these questions it will be hard for anyone to identify a solution.

Sorry if that's not 'knowledgable' enough for you.

Still, it's your problem.

John

[Pops]

Hey Dave, thank you so much for having been able to see beyond my frustration of the moment and still answer to my problem very pertinently I must say. Next time I will have learned not to be so grumpy.

Hey John, hope it made you feel good , have a nice day.

[davlan]

Oh dear

I have had some fairly hairy problems of my own recently when my £5000 brand new audio computer just didn't work. I sent a rather nippy email to their tech support whose reply was both helpful and very courteous. This was incredibly helpful. I for one know how frustrating complex audio systems can be as I have been trying to get a PC audio system together for some time now. You will be pleased to hear I am almost there and you can read about it in Dave's Diary coming soon.

John: I thought your reply was a wee bit OTT (but that's what you do in the wee small hours) but Pops when a string of people tried to discuss and resolve your problem you did respond somewhat ungratefully and ungraciously. These issues are resolved by dialogue not miraculous answers. Sometimes forum communication can be or feel misleading when you are feeling pissed off (you cannae see people's faces). And John's advice was excellent! How to troubleshoot the system.

May I elaborate on it. I was talking to an orchestral sound engineer at the BBC a few years ago and was suprised to find out that the recordings were done with almost no processing whatsover. A bit of manual dynamics compression made simply by riding the faders up and down at key moments. The sound was largely created by good mics and good mic positioning. And boy did it sound great. The point being is that you should get a good sound immediately with your system without any processing and not the "goat with a cold" you are currently experiencing. Here are my thoughts:

1. Is it the mic. Try another one. If it works then there's a problem with yours. Does it require phantom power, is this switched on? Are there settings on the mic, if so fiddle with these. Try repositioning the mic.

2. Is it the preamp. Again fiddle with settings.

3. Is it the sound card. Try recording (or monitoring) a line level device (a hardware synth perhaps) without the pre amp. If all's well then the preamp might be at fault. If you still get nasal whine you might want to email the manufacters support team to ask for advice as it may be the sound card. Check that you have ASIO drivers installed (could even try reinstalling these) and selected in cubase. Read your soundcard manual thoroughly and see if there is a setting that has to be altered.

Have a go at this stuff and give us feedback as to how you get on. i.e. tell us what is helpful and what is not.

And keep smiling.

Dave

[davlan]

One more thing.

Is it your monitors. Try listening through headphones.

Or simply try adding a bit of reverb to the mix.

Oh and are you getting enough signal through. the general theory is get it as loud aspossible without the sound clipping (distorting). That way you get more sound information on to your hard disk. Check the level meters in cubase or in the sound card software if it has them and on the preamp - they should all be in the amber. If they are way down near the bottom then turn up the amp gain.

Does the mic take a battery; if so does it need replaced.

Also check your cabling.

[davlan]

Just checked your mic out on the net. Looks like a fairly good capacitor. Try a pop shield. Are you far enough away from the monitors could be feedback issue.

Wait a minute, I've had an idea, sometimes if you have an internal feedback loop you can get the same sound produced twice with a slight delay on one of the sounds. this RESULTS in a nasal whiny quality or "phasing" to the sound. I've had this before on my old soundblaster card. If that is the case then you have a routing issue. But I don't know you're set up; is it possible you have the sound coming from the cubase engine as well as a direct feed from the sound card?

Does the nasal sound come only there when you are monitoring the live signal? Is it still there when you playback the recording?

Check your monitoring options. Try turning off the direct out in the driver selection page - the bit that lets you select ASIO/DirectX/WDM drivers!!!!!!!!

[davlan]

Just checked out John's previous reply and he's already mentioned this. Ah well, great minds! But this is a likely solution.

[john]

Hey Pops

No, it didn't make me feel good. Funnily enough it's not very fulfilling being grumpy.

Fair enough, Dave had a point. I was being just as grumpy as you. I can understand frustration, please just don't take it out on those who are trying to help.

The reason for the diagnostics is really to eliminate possible sources of the sound colouration. Like it or not you are recording onto a PC, with several elements in the signal chain. If we can isolate where the signal is being coloured we then stand a chance of why it is being coloured.

What you describe is a problem of sound being harmonically changed. This could be through the signal amplifiers, unintentional EQ, or possibly a signal loop causing feedback in the signal, or a phase issue.

Dave suggested your monitors, but it is unlikely if other sounds are being recorded ok. In the other thread Steve suggested placing some air between the mike and the bell of the trumpet. This might help, but might mask the actual problem.

Have you made sure that the input level of your soundcard is not being overdriven by your pre-amp output? You mention that you adjust the gain to stop the clipping led from lighting. Is this on the pre-amp, or your software? Clipping could be very transient, so that the led doesn't light. you may want to take the gain back a little more, if possible monitor the signal at this stage to ensure that the signal is not clipping at all.

Have you opened a recorded signal in a wave editor to check for signs of clipping? These will show up as 'flat spots' on the wave form. You will need to zoom the wave to see this. If the signal at the pre-amp sounds good but you can see visible clipping on the wave then its's very possible that your sound card input channel gain is set too high.

feedback loop or out of phase signals can be harder to locate. Have you tried recording the trumpet without monitoring the output? On the PC turn the output down to nil and try recording. Is the sound still coloured?

Have you recorded the trumpet via another package?

just created a trumpet wave file?

What I'm wondering is if what you hear is a loop issue. This would mean that the trumpet is being recorded ok. What could be happening is that the trumpet output is being fed back to the same, or different channel input. If this is the case you will either have phase issues, which will significantly distort the sound, or feedback issues which though not enough to cause a charcteristic whine, may be overdriving the output to the channel.

You can at least easily check this by playing the wave back outwith vst. If this makes no difference, and the wave looks ok, the it could be the way your soundcard mixer is set up.

I would really recommend that you break the problem down by simplifying the pc set up as much as possible, and checking the signal chain, by monitoring, in as many places as possible.

I know this won't answer your problems directly, but it does mean you will get to the source of the problem and not mask it by doing the wrong thing.

Hope this helps.

Cheers

John

[john]

Hey Pops

One other thing I meant to clarify. When you record, the reson for turning the channel output down to nothing is to make sure that the monitored signal is not being fed back in and recorded withe the real input signal. This could be what the channel is using as an input signal. Ensure that the trumpet input is the only thing being recorded.

This might seem over simple, but PCs are not the most intuitive for setting up signal chains, and problems like this can easily arise.

Cheers

John

[TheOne]

Pops

How did you get on? Did any the advice these guys have given help?

TheOne

[Pops]

The One...... what a very definitive sounding users name. I got on like all of you I suppose, by signing in with a users name and a password. The advice given so far, is very helpful however, because of what I feel to be my still limited knowledge I still am in the process of desifiring all of the info. given so far. But that's O.K.... no pain no gain I suppose. Well back to the drawing board I go.

Pop's

[BongStuff]

An engineer friend of mine used to record live brass using small "tiepin" clipon mikes inside the bell of the instrument. Could be worth a try ( beg/borrow/steal one? ).

Otherwise, if you've exhausted all the previous ( and very good ) suggestions, I'd try recording, say, direct to DAT or tape and see if the sound's still bad. If it is, you know it's a problem "upstream" in the signal path. If not, it's something in the PC/Audio card etc...

 BS