Which Synth?

[Rudi]

Ok. I am in the market for a new synth. I have checked out a few specs, models & youtube demos.

I want the most natural orchestral sounds I can find, particularly string (cello etc) sounds. I dont use a PC for recording.

I have about £650-£750 to spend.

Most of the Rolands sound too rich & sweetened. I dont really want to spend a lot of time trying to edit out effects.

Im wondering about the Korg X50, or maybe a Yamaha?

Any thoughts?

[TapperMike]

Short answer Korg MicroStation,

So you really don't want a synth as much as you want a rompler. Even though technologies have merged to the point of Romplers (sampled sound) use some aspects of synthesis and synth's often used sampled sounds as oscillator there is still much that separates one from the other. But if you go into a store and ask for a synth that's exactly what you'll get and you won't get familiar traditional sounding instruments you'll get soundscapes and "spacey" stuff

Even if you don't use a computer for recording you can use it's as a "host" for your sounds. The problem with keyboard workstation is if you have it a few years you can become very bored with the sounds you used to love and nothing to do with getting new sounds Unless you are ready to triple quadrupul your initial investment. With little exception all the big names of today and yesteryear have moved on to receptor. Receptor is a computer that isn't designed to do a million and one things. It's designed to do one thing well. Load sounds.It loads loads of sounds.

http://www.museresearch.com/

I don't have that type of money and you prolly don't either. You don't need a daw (digital audio workstation) to play sounds through a computer. The bigger libraries have "standalones/hosts" which bypasses all that daw junk that can confuse one and get in the way of performance.

My favorite standalone is cantible http://www.cantabilesoftware.com/

I can load all my sound libraries into it and organize the thing so when playing live I don't have to dig around for that next sound I need on the next song. If your computer breaks you can take your sound libraries to the next one. Unlike when a keyboard/workstation breaks and you lose everything.

If I were looking at an all in one package for sounds... IK Media Total Workstation 2 The library is vast the sounds are amazing

Keyboard Workstations

When you are working with "romplers" the number of oscillators has a direct impact on how the sounds sound. The more the better.

As far as "What sounds best" well that is much up to the individual. My favorite "workstation sounds" are from the Yamaha Tyros.

Motif's and MM's contain similar but not the same sounds they aren't as rich. Some hear the sounds as warm and cheesy. I do too but I still love how they sound. Even though current yamaha rompler workstations are limited to 4 to 8 oscillatorssometimes refered to as layers) per sound they do a great job. As well the user interface is "freindly" with a big screen so you can see all the details well. While I've never played a tyros I have played a motif, mo6 and mm6 To my ears the mm6 doesn't even compare

Next on the list of favorites is Kurzwiel PCX3 (any variety) To me the sounds are darker and richer

The PCX3 (all varieties) If you like playing cover tunes and you like it to sound like the record this is your instrument. Even a pcx3 LE with less keys and knobs will bring that too you. They don't come cheap.

Now down to a working price range.

Korgs are usually big expensive slow to load. If you are willing to sacrafice key size or use a different keyboard as a controller you should investigate a microArranger. A micro arranger sounds very very very close to an M50 or an M1 It's not quite an M3 and it's no where near a Kronos.

A used Motif ES (8years on the market) Still sounds better then the cheaper MO or MM and has a better keybed. I don't put much stock in roland though I was roland die hard fanboy through the 80's and 90's I just don't hear anything in your price range from roland. And to be honest the layouts they have confuse the hell out of me.

[Rudi]

Wow, thank you Mike.

You have expanded my question (or do I mean exploded?). I think I need to do a bunch more research again.....

rompler? That was a 1st world war German Aircraft I think....

umm.. no it was a Rumpler. Hey I'd love one of those too.

Ok Korg microstation.

Excuse me but I must google now.

[TapperMike]

A Sampler is something that can sample sounds. A rompler is something with sampled sounds. The sound is stored in rom on a "workstartion" keyboard. What that means is when the keyboard is on the sounds load very fast. The sound library (soft synth for computers) or rompler has a very sophisicated means of taking multiple sounds and organizing them in layers.

Lets take a natural piano. If you hit the key very hard it will produce a "compressed" loud sound.. It's not only the volume that is affected by how hard you hit the key. If they only sampled the sound for one level of attack it would sound boring and unnatural.

With a rompler you'll have several samples of the same tone recorded and when you hit the key soft or loud you'll get a more natural sound because the workstation will react you your playing force or technique and select the recording sample that best reflects it.

The best of the best in rompler / workstations (in my opinion) is the Kurzweil PCX3 any version (they have a few pcx3 types) It's not just the file size of the sounds but how they use them in layers and apply physical modeling. But every step from recording to sampling then layering affects the final sound.

Honestly I'll never be able to afford one but the video below will show what a quality rompler is capable of

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Edited June 10, 2012 by TapperMike

[Rudi]

Ok I listened to it, all of it. I would have liked to have heard some more naturalistic sounds, but its a good demo nevertheless.

I find everything out there delivers good piano sounds, even my old General Music keys does that ok. Convincing orchestral sounds would be make me happy.

Im not interested in reproducing pop sounds.

[TheOminouseRecreation]

there are also analouge synths that are a little more complex. its all personal choice everything these days is digital, but to me nothing beats the original analouge sythns. or any synth used by prince. how ever i doubt there practical for what you want.. it all depends on what sound you want to achive its like buying a guitar you should try out a few in a store rather than ask around cause people like diffrent things my man

[TapperMike]

The video only demonstrates "some" of the piano's offered in the unit. It also produces a wide range of other musical sounds. I did not find the piano sounds "unnatural"

In regards to synthesis techology there is no universal synth nor does programming come easy to most folks. Sample libraries can only come so far in emulating synths. However sampling a synth is not the same as generating a softsynth.

Softsynths offer a greater variety of tonality then for instance an roland jupiter. And when you get bored with one you don't have to hide it in your closet or resell it for a fraction of what you paid then find yourself wanting it again. The big league pro's who used to perform with analog synths now all tour with muse research receptor. In short it's a computer (linux) that is designed for one thing (playing sounds) It's rugged, reliable and expensive.

[Rudi]

TOR

I have tried out 2 synths in shops. I was not impressed. They were hardly better than the 25 year old job I fetched out of my closet.

That is why I am asking here SO i know what to try next.

Mike,

No. The piano sounds in the vid are not unnatural. I already said piano sounds are good on everything out there, which exempts the piano sounds from my naturlistic comment. This means I am satisfied that pianos should be good on everything. I want realistic acoustic sounds, not electronic fireworks.

You are, I think making the point that keys that use samples (romplers) are better. Presumably this means you can buy better ones to load into them.

[TapperMike]

Yes,

Yamaha Tyro's Roland Virtual Arranger and many other vendors supply expansion sounds for loading. Though I'm not fond of roland as it has very limited expansion sets and one can't buy sounds / patches, etc from third parties.

One word about Kurzweil. It's Andrew Lloyd Weber's instrument of choice for all his theatrical productions. He can't supply a full orchestra for his musicals. In the past he used the k series from kurzweil today he uses the pc3k version

The super orchestral stuff that is add on is mostly for computers not keyboards. Die hard classicalists prefer a very unprocessed sound with is ungodly dry and boring to work with for me. VSL and Miroslav are the big names in dry sounds that you have to spend hours and hours setting up so it sounds right. Hans Zimmer uses his own crafted samples

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_Zimmer

As well as VSL, Atmosphere and Omnisphere

The next is GPO , Garritan is considered the working mans orchestra. It's slightly processed and you have to work the heck out of it to get a good classical sound but it works.

The others worth noting are EWQL and Naitive Instruments, I've always found EWQL bulky the file sizes are huge and hard to work with and yet they have some amazing specialty libraries most notably Hollywood Brass and Hollywood Strings,

Again these are work to setup up right and sound right. You really have to know your way around midi.

Finally the native instruments Kontact libraries Session Strings Pro. This has to be the smartest and best sounding string library I've ever heard. It is highly processed and the cc's make it all the much more realistic.

[Rudi]

I did google some youtube demos of the korg microstation. I used headphones to listen and was very impressed, especially as it comes in at half my budget.

I had been concidering korg's X50, or even the M50. I think from the descriptions they must both be romplers. The main advantage of those would appear to be the keys themselves.

Session Strings Pro. I'll have another google. (what are cc's ?)

You have been most helpful Mike. Thank you.

[TapperMike]

CC stands for continuous controllers. or Continuous control OR control change. Even Manufactuer's disagree with the actual name All midi whether it be synth or rompler have cc to some capacity. The simple stuff is just volume and sustain controls Also bends and a million other things.

http://www.tweakheadz.com/midi_controllers.htm

Types of CC varies with the type of rompler or synth With cc's you can vary the sounds during performance or if you simply want to fine tune a sound for personal taste.. Many midi controllers have knobs and faders that can be assigned to cc's. With Computers you can use "midi learn" to assign a cc to a specific controller on your keyboard.

Here is a youtube video for session strings where they use the CC's to affect the character of the sound.

[TapperMike]

About the microstation. Please do yourself a favor and test it in a store. Between the smaller sized keys and action you may not be happy with it. Key size and action are very personal things. Sure you can always rig another keyboard with midi out to the midi in. But you can also adapt to the keys themselves.

Personally I like smaller keys and a light action. I'm not most people I never took piano lessons and I haven't touched a traditional piano in over 25 years now.

[Rudi]

ok Mike

The Session Strings link you provided. That looks like a sampler software add-on.

If im right, does this mean you have to use a PC to use it?

Or can it work ok using with controller keyboard alone? (I dont record with a PC).

[TapperMike]

pc or mac required.

I go both ways on recording or "hosting" sounds on a computer. You don't have to record from a computer to play from a computer. That's what I do I play sounds from the computer without recording them. If I want to record I've got a nice recording setup separate. Some people say I'm being quirky or old fashioned.

Most of the people I know these days work with computer based sounds. And If you think about it a "workstation keyboad" is actually a computer just a highly specialized one that can't do everything a computer can do but what it does do it does well.

A few years back I owned a serious workstation

Everything but the keys. Oneday I spilled coffee on it and it was gone for good.

Now I own the software version of it from the same company. The software version is free. The sounds are exacly the same as the hardware version.

[Rudi]

Well thats what I hope you would say. I have no problem with using a PC that way.

I have mac & PC. I would prefer to use the PC.

[Harrison]

What I have used for 2 years and absolutely loved is the Akai minniak. Its small, portable, and has over 600 native sounds, with room for more than Ill ever need. it also has a 40 band vocoder, which sounds amazing. Its also MIDI compatible. Im not sure how you would like it, but I know that it was cheap, durable, powerful, and I love it!

[Rudi]

thanks for chiming in Harrison. I still have not bought my keys; and I should have done by now. I will get there in 2013.

[TapperMike]

If you haven't' you might be interested in Krome which has been just recently introduced to the market.

Krome is a little brother to Kronos and borrows much of the rich tones from it.

Edited December 20, 2012 by TapperMike

[Jim622]

Nice topic. This strand has helped expand my knowledge and questions.