Questions, questions, questions

[Pahchisme Plaid]

This is just a modgepodge of things I’d like to get clarity on.

 

I have a hard time getting clarity on what constitutes a derivative.  Here is a scenario.

 

Suppose you have a lyric you’re working on.  You begin developing a vocal melody, you start to put chords to it.  In the meantime, you post your lyrics, your vocal stresses and your rough chords in a forum.  You know it’s going to take some time to get good at playing it, but you have the song.  

 

Then comes along someone who says, “Hey! Can I give it a shot?  You say, “Sure”, cause you like to hear people singing your songs.  

 

They modify it to their singing style, voice.  Maybe even change/tweak a few words (or even more than a few words.

 

Is this now a derivative?

 

How does that work?  Suppose any one of the above elements of your original post were absent, how does that effect things? (For example, you either post without chords or you don’t have vocal stressors or you provided an a Capella version to go with your lyrics?)  Is theirs sill a derivative?

 

Okay, so now, supposing you posted a compete song and someone wants to do a version of your song, but changes the lyrics and keeps the melody and the chorus?  Is that a derivative AND do they need permission to do a derivative or can anyone do a derivative regardless of permissions?

 

Also, suppose you marked the chords on the post, but you pluck and they strum the chords, can they count that as their own musical creation?

 

Some of these I have an idea what the answe might be, but I don’t have a solid grasp on it and that’s what I want.  I want clarification so that I know that I know.

 

So, if you KNOW the answers to these questions and you’re not just putting your best guess out, I’d like to hear from you.  

 

Anything you can provide by way of links to any vetted source would be helpful as well.  

 

 

 

 

Edited March 30, 2018 by Pahchisme Plaid

[Rudi]

The following is my opinion. Those opinions are firm though.

 

4 hours ago, Pahchisme Plaid said:

 

Suppose you have a lyric you’re working on.  You begin developing a vocal melody, you start to put chords to it.  In the meantime, you post your lyrics, your vocal stresses and your rough chords in a forum.  You know it’s going to take some time to get good at playing it, but you have the song.  

 

Then comes along someone who says, “Hey! Can I give it a shot?  You say, “Sure”, cause you like to hear people singing your songs.  

 

They modify it to their singing style, voice.  Maybe even change/tweak a few words (or even more than a few words.

 

Is this now a derivative?

 

How does that work?  Suppose any one of the above elements of your original post were absent, how does that effect things? (For example, you either post without chords or you don’t have vocal stressors or you provided an a Capella version to go with your lyrics?)  Is theirs sill a derivative?

 

 

 

 

 

I don't know how you convey vocal stresses on written lyrics. Can you show me?

 

First of all. If all you have posted are lyrics, the collaborator cannot know what melody/chords you have in mind.

 

Secondly, its to be expected that they incorporate their singing style, because that is part of their contribution. Its part of their toolkit.

 

Lastly, if they change any part of what you have specified, then they should seek your approval. This is a collaboration though. You should exchange ideas. They may have a problem keeping your lyric to a musical framework, or your words may not be easy to sing well. Maybe you can solve this for them? Communication is the way forward. 

 

Quote

Okay, so now, supposing you posted a compete song and someone wants to do a version of your song, but changes the lyrics and keeps the melody and the chorus?  Is that a derivative AND do they need permission to do a derivative or can anyone do a derivative regardless of permissions?

 

No one should take your music and put their own words to it without your express approval.

 

Quote

Also, suppose you marked the chords on the post, but you pluck and they strum the chords, can they count that as their own musical creation?

 

No. That makes no difference.

 

 

[Pahchisme Plaid]

Hey Rudi, 

 

As an example of vocal stress, I’ll show a few ways I’ve done it or seen it done.

 

”I’m driving in my car.   I turn on the radio”. Or

 

”I’m DRIving in my CAR.  I turn ON the RAdio”. Or

 

........../...................../................/......

“I’m driving in my car.  I turn on the

./......

radio.”

 

They represent syllable stresses.

 

The last one Is the least friendly, I find, especially if you later want to put the chords over the word, which I sometimes do.  It’s tricky having them share the space over the words.  To complicate things.  I must acknowledge, mine aren’t so much as chords as they are chord shapes because I use a capo, Although my vocal comfort level allows for many songs to be played without the capo, depending on the song.

[Rudi]

I see. I'm not sure if it would be easier or trickier to add music with these. Pretty good idea though!

[Pahchisme Plaid]

It’s a way for a lyricist who won’t or can’t sing to better relay what’s to be emphasized vocally, but also a trigger to remind a writer who does sing what the vocal rhythm is like and relay to others what’s intended in the absence of a recording.

 

You’re coming from a mostly musician perspective I think, whereas I come from a mostly lyricist perspective.  Tricks of the trade—I’m sure you’ve got a number of them I’m unaware of. 😉

Edited March 30, 2018 by Pahchisme Plaid

[DC Cornelius]

On 30/03/2018 at 1:37 PM, Pahchisme Plaid said:

They modify it to their singing style, voice.  Maybe even change/tweak a few words (or even more than a few words.

It should be made quite clear at the start not to change anything. The person giving it a go should naturally understand this & ask you first if he/ she wants/ needs to change something.

It's your song! In fact, I'd go as far as saying it's very unprofessional & disrespectful.

DC...

[Glammerocity]

Copyright isn't all B&W but you can be pretty sure stressors don't count as a writing credit. The great Tin Pan Alley era of songwriters - Cole Porter, Irving Berlin, etc etc - who wrote for others wrote songs which were meant to be interpreted - Richard Rodgers aside - so a singer would of course alter a melody line but the song was still recognised as a Porter/Berlin/Gershwin/whoever composition. Frank Sinatra did not get a writing credit on My Way for singing it differently to Paul Anka. Coincidentally, last night I caught up with an old comment on a clip of Sammy Davis Jr doing I've Got You Under My Skin in my Youtube channel and some guy was claiming he was covering a Sinatra song. Erm, no, it was written by Cole Porter in 1936 for a musical and first sung by Virginia Bruce. Sammy sings every song differently to Sinatra. Still a Cole Porter song.

 

I'm not a copyright lawyer but my rough understanding is words and melody make the song. Arrangement is counted as a performance credit, which gets different royalties, depending on contracts. And you'd have to change the melody substantially to convince a judge. Writing a new verse would be different but they'd need permission from the copyright owner to release it and then negotiate royalties.

 

Judge Michael W. Fitzgerald recently heard the case of two songwriters suing Taylor Swift, claiming their 3LW song featured the phrase, "playas, they gonna play and haters, they gonna hate," which they said was stolen by Tay-Tay for her Shake It Off chorus.

 

The judge took Tay-Tay's side but he was not happy about anything. His honour ruled:

 

“In the early 2000s, popular culture was adequately suffused with the concepts of players and haters to render the phrases ‘playas… gonna play’ or ‘haters… gonna hate’, standing on their own, no more creative than ‘runners gonna run’; ‘drummers gonna drum’; or ‘swimmers gonna swim.’

“The concept of actors acting in accordance with their essential nature is not at all creative; it is banal.

“The allegedly infringed lyrics are short phrases that lack the modicum of originality and creativity required for copyright protection."

 

It's believed Stevie Wonder and Fleetwood Mac didn't dig out their old 70s cassettes and speak to lawyers about lovers keeping on loving, believers keeping on believing or players only loving you when they're playing.

 

And if anything is banal, it's the judge's haircut.