Song building - the "idea" comes first

[Greg M]

I have just been reading on one of the forums on song building. I have often been involved in these conversations, usually around the idea of which comes first? The music or the Lyrics? Saying that "the idea" comes first is a little simplistic, because the idea for the song has to have some form, and it is usually a melody or lyrical form. Even if it is just a feeling you are having, people tend to pick up either a guitar or a pen, to try and give it form.

I am primarily a lyricist. The ideas for my lyrics come from books, films, favourite songs, history, romance, conversations I've had, conversations I have overheard, and other sources. The phrase I come up with might be the first line of the song, the title of a song, or a line in the bridge.  I was watching an episode of "The Witcher", last year and the eponymous lead character uttered the words "true words are like rare birds". I wrote it down and, later, wrote a song around that sentiment, with those words in it.

I have tried to write lyrics to other people's music in the past, with mixed levels of success and I have, on occasion, come up with a melody myself and written the lyrics later, but I feel more at home writing lyrics and then picking up a guitar and finding a key that works for the song, and then look for a musical structure within that key.

[MikeRobinson]

Here's what I think, for whatever it may be worth:  "Begin with an idea, then finish with a process." 

 

Whenever you listen to a "finished" song on the radio, or read a "finished" book on the airplane, you are never exposed to the "sometimes very trial-and-error process" that finally produced it.  And, the producers like it that way: "it's supposed to feel like magick."  The only thing that you're ever supposed to hear, watch, or read is what "the committee" finally decided upon.  You're never supposed to encounter the committee meetings. It's never supposed to occur to you that those meetings might have even happened.  The illusion is supposed to be that it is "magick," not deliberation.

 

One thing that you may have noticed, while watching documentaries about musicians, is that they've always got a tape recorder, and they always turn it on before they start playing anything.

Edited February 26, 2022 by MikeRobinson

[Clay Anderson Johnson]

21 hours ago, MikeRobinson said:

Here's what I think, for whatever it may be worth:  "Begin with an idea, then finish with a process." 

@Greg M

I totally agree with this.  I am a composer and multi-instrumentalist.  

 

I begin strictly with a concept.  I know what type of sound and emotional impact I want before playing an instrument.  Even though I often play lead guitar I generally arrange on piano. 

 

I typically have the finished product in mind before ever playing.

Edited February 27, 2022 by Clay Anderson Johnson

[Greg M]

This just shows how different we all are with regard to how we approach composition. There is no right or wrong way to write a song, and you can start wherever you want to, without fear of failure.

 

[Glammerocity]

I've generally started with the lyric, because if you have something to say you should try to say it without having to contrive it. Once you've said it, you can fit music to it. It can be more contrived to try to fit words into a pre-existing song. Then again, one of the best things I ever did was just a hook line - "Don't tie your baby down" - when I recorded the tune, then my songwriting partner put verses to it.

 

Lyrics don't always have to say something or even make sense. Onomatopoeia is an effective device for conveying a feeling; every sha la la la, every woh oh oh oh, as it were. Sometimes the music is the hook - have you ever noticed Ziggy Stardust has no chorus? Mick Ronson's guitar lick is as close as it gets. And that's considered a classic (though not by me, I was more of a Diamond Dogs fan.)

 

So in conclusion, horses for courses in creative forces.

[Greg M]

On 4/2/2022 at 5:02 PM, Glammerocity said:

I've generally started with the lyric, because if you have something to say you should try to say it without having to contrive it. Once you've said it, you can fit music to it. It can be more contrived to try to fit words into a pre-existing song. Then again, one of the best things I ever did was just a hook line - "Don't tie your baby down" - when I recorded the tune, then my songwriting partner put verses to it.

 

Lyrics don't always have to say something or even make sense. Onomatopoeia is an effective device for conveying a feeling; every sha la la la, every woh oh oh oh, as it were. Sometimes the music is the hook - have you ever noticed Ziggy Stardust has no chorus? Mick Ronson's guitar lick is as close as it gets. And that's considered a classic (though not by me, I was more of a Diamond Dogs fan.)

 

So in conclusion, horses for courses in creative forces.

 

I agree with you that songs don't need to have choruses, but you chose the wrong example in Ziggy Stardust, because this is the chorus:

 

So where were the spiders
While the fly tried to break our balls?
Just the beer light to guide us
So we bitched about his fans
And should we crush his sweet hands?
Oh yeah

 

A chorus is a way of changing the focus, or increasing the focus on a particular aspect of the song, often the key point of the song, and it often contains the hook in the song, but it doesn't have to. In Ziggy Stardust it was a musical hook. There aren't really any repeated lines in this song, other than "Ziggy played guitar", but there would be nothing gripping about the song without the musical chorus.

 

 

[Paul Hayworth]

Most pop songs went from 3 chords to 2 in the 2000's 2010's with Woop Woop and eehh ohh hooks. Crowd pleasing choruses are definitely out of style. With Bowie's 60's 70's music passages are cleverly linked, but 'Ziggy Played Guitar' is is the mental hook and melodic hook.

Edited April 5, 2022 by Paul Hayworth

[Greg M]

On 4/5/2022 at 7:19 AM, Paul Hayworth said:

Most pop songs went from 3 chords to 2 in the 2000's 2010's with Woop Woop and eehh ohh hooks. Crowd pleasing choruses are definitely out of style. With Bowie's 60's 70's music passages are cleverly linked, but 'Ziggy Played Guitar' is is the mental hook and melodic hook.

we will have to agree to disagree.

[Paul Hayworth]

That's ok nobody on the internet agrees on anything. I don't make products I make songs. Personally I like the freestyle approach using the tools to go somewhere new. The best inspiration for sound comes from new music gear, I genrally avoid vst's, I prefer a good cheap second hand classic unit, that's all too easy. For lyrics I don't have any big message or style, it's usually just a song. One thing I do try to do is make 10 or 12 songs into an artistic piece with common themes, instruments and ideas. I settle on titles later after the lyrics. It doesn't matter how you do it because who t'f' cares about buying new music especially albums.  I also feel songwriters that get tied up in writing a genre or style to be the best of that thing like Nickelback just bore me senseless. I like new original stuff, unlike most joe public's now, so it is unsellable. That's fine lol! My choruses like Bowie have been recently just emerging from songs, I don't plan structure eg v ch v ch end, because yes it's boring. Most pop songs start with a chorus and stay there hence the new 2 chord routine as joe public likes simple catchy songs. I like mega complicated works pushing technical and writing abilities, so there.

Edited April 6, 2022 by Paul Hayworth

[Greg M]

20 hours ago, Paul Hayworth said:

That's ok nobody on the internet agrees on anything. I don't make products I make songs. Personally I like the freestyle approach using the tools to go somewhere new. The best inspiration for sound comes from new music gear, I genrally avoid vst's, I prefer a good cheap second hand classic unit, that's all too easy. For lyrics I don't have any big message or style, it's usually just a song. One thing I do try to do is make 10 or 12 songs into an artistic piece with common themes, instruments and ideas. I settle on titles later after the lyrics. It doesn't matter how you do it because who t'f' cares about buying new music especially albums.  I also feel songwriters that get tied up in writing a genre or style to be the best of that thing like Nickelback just bore me senseless. I like new original stuff, unlike most joe public's now, so it is unsellable. That's fine lol! My choruses like Bowie have been recently just emerging from songs, I don't plan structure eg v ch v ch end, because yes it's boring. Most pop songs start with a chorus and stay there hence the new 2 chord routine as joe public likes simple catchy songs. I like mega complicated works pushing technical and writing abilities, so there.

Thanks for the mission statement. I dare say that we are all similar in a way. Maybe not working in the same way, but each having our own individual style and approach. Most of my songs are verse verse bridge chorus verse bridge chorus. Even when I try not to write that way. Even if I wrote verses that were 8 lines, 4 bars per line, I would still have to change the chords and tone in line s 5 and 6 at least, not unlike a chorus. I suppose that if I wrote with a band, I would have other influences in terms of how to shape a song, but I don't, and I'm not too bothered about it

[Paul Hayworth]

My method makes me free of rules I make for myself because anything that stops you creating from your own hangups, form structure, sound is your own rule and decision which you might have adopted cos someone told you, so I go for anything goes. I have no rabid possey of angry fans who will stop following/paying if I change my style or genre limitations so again, no worries just create be inventive, be happy!

Edited April 8, 2022 by Paul Hayworth

[Greg M]

3 hours ago, Paul Hayworth said:

My method makes me free of rules I make for myself because anything that stops you creating from your own hangups, form structure, sound is your own rule and decision which you might have adopted cos someone told you, so I go for anything goes. I have no rabid possey of angry fans who will stop following/paying if I change my style or genre limitations so again, no worries just create be inventive, be happy!

sounds like good advice