Method for diverse dynamic recording levels?

[Donna]

Hey all,

Wondering what the rule of thumb is when recording a song which has alternating sections of soft and loud.

I don't mean the normal swell of dynamics as a song climaxes, but abrupt changes in dynamics.

Thanks for any light on this.

[john]

Do you mean different parts sharing a track, or the overall song dynamic lifts?

If the first then you'll need to rehearse your mix. A bit like playing another instrument...

If the second then it depends if you want to preserve the dynamic lift. If you want to narrow the gap between the quietest and loudest parts then you need a compressor, or at least a compressor would make life a lot easier.

If you do want to preserve the dynamic lift completely, then compression can be used to trim the highest peaks allowing you to lift the overall level a bit.

By "riding" the faders (moving them during the mix) you can obviously make some differnce between the recorded and playing back track volumes on mixdown.

Is this of any help, or did I miss the point?

Cheers

John

[Donna]

Do you mean different parts sharing a track, or the overall song dynamic lifts?

If the first then you'll need to rehearse your mix. A bit like playing another instrument...

If the second then it depends if you want to preserve the dynamic lift. If you want to narrow the gap between the quietest and loudest parts then you need a compressor, or at least a compressor would make life a lot easier.

If you do want to preserve the dynamic lift completely, then compression can be used to trim the highest peaks allowing you to lift the overall level a bit.

By "riding" the faders (moving them during the mix) you can obviously make some differnce between the recorded and playing back track volumes on mixdown.

Is this of any help, or did I miss the point?

Cheers

John

Hey John, it's the second - the overall song dynamic lifts, preserving the lift and first wanting to know how to maximize this during recording stage. So...this would be an instance for using more than usual compression at the recording stage? I'm trying to recall that principle, but I thought compression (like eq) should be used minimally during recording stgage.

Is there anything else which would preserve both soft and loud sections at the recording stage? Obviously the challenge is to record the soft parts at a hot enough level, with the loud not too hot. Is the bottom line to not overpeak the dynamic lift?

I'd read someplace that the order in which signal is recorded should be followed in adjusting levels. IIRC, that order is the instrument (rarely applicable in my case), the trim, then individual track faders, and finally master faders.

Thus...for initial recording stage, would I want the trim (or 1st point "entry" for signal) adjusted for not peaking out the dynamic lift? Is there a way to fool with individual track fader levels during recording so I will have more leeway riding the master faders upon mixdown?

Now am I making any sense or have I lost you?

Donna

[Prometheus]

As much as anything else, I would give serious thought to your instrumentation as well as to studio effects like compression... If you listen to Dark side of the Moon, there's a song called "Money" where everything drops out except one completely dry guitar with an AM radio EQ on it, and then it all comes crashing back in...

Failing that have a listen to this...

http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fusea...iendID=65162654

because the kind of change I'm talking about is common to most of my songs, this being the most marked one... There is a middle eight in this one where there is a massive dynamic drop out. This is achieved simply by dropping everything out into just a dual layered bass guitar line with a high and low Octave, the high one with a sweeping phaser on it. This phasing effect is not required, it's just that as a musical arranger who is primarily a bass player, I often find myself using the bass guitar as the prime mover in parts of my songs...

Using changes in instrumentation is a way of creating a natural dymanics shift... Excessive gain riding can sound artificial and contrived, because it is artificial and contrived...

Edited March 31, 2006 by Prometheus

[Donna]

Prometheus - yeah, I've heard "Night" so I remember what the middle 8 (also your verses) sound like. I'm also familiar with "Money".

You're hitting on my wondering's...I certainly don't want to only ride the faders upon mixdown. I can handle the dynamic changes in playing. Neither do I see the instrumentation (basic) changing - but I will ponder it.

Think almost punk; soft but w/ an edge dropped out sections, then abruptly to sort of screaming volume. It's funny, all this wondering about control - because I don't want it to sound controlled but rather unleashed.

Should I just play louder for the softer parts so that the trim isn't cranked and thus the loud parts overly distorted? Or back off playing the loud parts?

[Prometheus]

Should I just play louder for the softer parts so that the trim isn't cranked and thus the loud parts overly distorted? Or back off playing the loud parts?

Playing louder for the softer parts and then attenuating if you wish to would probably be the way to do it, but it's hard to know for sure without knowing exactly what you have in mind, but yeah that way you're gonna get a much better signal to noise ration... You can always attenuate the level to where you want it in the mix... If in doubt, experimentation is the name of the game. Try both approaches or multiple approaches and see what one works best...

A couple of points worth thinking about... What kind of recording techniques are you using? Is it like Guitar -> Amp -> Mike -> Recorder? Or is it more a Direct Injection of Instrument Pickup or Line Out -> Mic / Line in on desk?

If you're recording with a microphone and you want to play very vigorously without clipping the circuits, you can always move the mic further from the source...

I know you might not be rolling in money but check this out...

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Behringer-composer-M...1QQcmdZViewItem

£22.00 is roughly 30 bucks, and with one of these bad boys in your setup, your dynamic problems would be a thing of the past... They make great mastering limiters too...

Edited March 31, 2006 by Prometheus

[Prometheus]

Prometheus - yeah, I've heard "Night" so I remember what the middle 8 (also your verses) sound like. I'm also familiar with "Money".

Another one, to me this is one of the best songs for dynamics I've ever heard, which is saying something becuase it was mastered for vinyl... The bit in Telegraph Road where it drops out to

"And I'd sooner forget, but I remember those nights,

when life was just a bet on a race, between the lights,

you had you're head on my shoulder, you had my hand in your hair,

now you're acting a little colder, like you don't seem to care..."

with just a quiet piano in the background, then a drum hit and back in...

Fantastic!

The piano seems to have been played quite energetically and attenuated, so it still feels pretty strong...

[Prometheus]

I meant to tell you Donna, I used a Tascam 4-Track recorder very similar to yours to record drums for my band on Wednesday Night, and it turned out absolutely fantastic... there's still something magical about high quality recordings to analogue tape... Absolutely outstanding pieces of machinery these old Tascams... They just don't build them like that these days...

[Donna]

Hey Prometheus, no amps. No guitar even in tune! But that's another tale...the behringer is on the list btw.

Anyway, I did a rough draft and the main thing is it does have attitude (and dynamics!). I did a bassline on the acoustic and it did have some bottom, post-eq. In fact, I don't think I could repeat the niceness of my playing (including the "right" wrong notes). Got a cool thing going on vox with a stereo generation effect.

The guitar was tuned like up to B# and a half, now I can't find the right key again, ha ha. I'll just do my thing, it'll work out.

Good thing ATom ain't around, he'd go ballistic, me trying to do screaming kind of rock w/ an acoustic only, sans bass guitar.

I'll be laying back on the louder parts when I have a go again.

Those pictures are great + the story of the 246. It gives me encouragement with my little analogue deal. Hey, that's not the "Pray For Rain" group that won a Grammy awhile back - or is it just the name of that particular session?

[Prometheus]

Hey Prometheus, no amps. No guitar even in tune! But that's another tale...the behringer is on the list btw.

Anyway, I did a rough draft and the main thing is it does have attitude (and dynamics!). I did a bassline on the acoustic and it did have some bottom, post-eq. In fact, I don't think I could repeat the niceness of my playing (including the "right" wrong notes). Got a cool thing going on vox with a stereo generation effect.

The guitar was tuned like up to B# and a half, now I can't find the right key again, ha ha. I'll just do my thing, it'll work out.

Good thing ATom ain't around, he'd go ballistic, me trying to do screaming kind of rock w/ an acoustic only, sans bass guitar.

I'll be laying back on the louder parts when I have a go again.

Those pictures are great + the story of the 246. It gives me encouragement with my little analogue deal. Hey, that's not the "Pray For Rain" group that won a Grammy awhile back - or is it just the name of that particular session?

HAHA! Just the name of the session... I'm the handsome devil exhaling cigarette smoke on the right hand side of the center photo...

Incidentally Donna, I meant to tell you, you should check out this link,

http://www.hitsquad.com/smm/programs/KRISTAL/

And download this little perisher... It's free for personal use, it has many channels, it can work with VST plugins which I can send you loads of good examples of, it works with the busses in your sound card and has a pretty cool mixer on it... I haven't checked it out for automation and such like, but any how, it seems a very good product to me, and seems to do more or less what logic, cubase and Pro-Tools do...

Download it, ask questions, and I'll help you to figure out how it works... It will definitely increase the scope of what you can do dramatically, and you can use audacity still to make mastering adjustments...

[Prometheus]

Hey Prometheus, no amps. No guitar even in tune! But that's another tale...the behringer is on the list btw.

Anyway, I did a rough draft and the main thing is it does have attitude (and dynamics!). I did a bassline on the acoustic and it did have some bottom, post-eq. In fact, I don't think I could repeat the niceness of my playing (including the "right" wrong notes). Got a cool thing going on vox with a stereo generation effect.

Good news on the Behringer... I'll be fascinated to hear this track when it's finished!

[Donna]

Well man, you're a good cheerleader. Of course that's you - only a beard added.

Gratefully yours -

(I will download the thing and be your student - but er, you know I cannot figure out even audacity? You should know that).

[Guest voclizr]

HEY LADY D!

Good to see you back. I hope all is well!

John B.

[Prometheus]

Well man, you're a good cheerleader. Of course that's you - only a beard added.

Gratefully yours -

(I will download the thing and be your student - but er, you know I cannot figure out even audacity? You should know that).

Ah, don't worry, it is daunting at first, but once you get the hang of it you'll have a sixteen track recording studio at your disposal, and you know that you just have to come on here and ask questions and loads of people will want to help... If you download and install the VST plugins I've posted links to on the Freeware thread in "gear review" you'll have compressors, chorus, mastering limiters, reverbs, EQ's... you name it, all free...

You'll actually find that quite a few of the controls on the mixer in Kristal are familiar from the Tascam. Routing on desks and in virtual studios really hasn't changed much since the seventies at all... Even on monsters like the Digital DM2000 your routing controls all work in the more or less familiar way, just with some of them on an LCD display...

Edited April 6, 2006 by Prometheus

[Donna]

Prometheus, hello. Man it got really cold here and the basil and sunflowers and michaelmas dasies and cosmos are just shot.

Will you clarify the statement below (re: Night)? Does it mean that orginally you had all instruments going dur. the middle 8, then switched off everything but bass on the middle 8 during mixdown? It cannot mean that, can it? Might work for 8 bars - once - but not for the back n forth p to FF in my tune.

Although I'm intrigued mightily w/ this idea...the idea of the signal - and the playing - having the presence by itself that it normally would when the dynamic level swells.

This is why you keep suggesting the beringer, right?

There is a middle eight in this one where there is a massive dynamic drop out. This is achieved simply by dropping everything out into just a dual layered bass guitar line with a high and low Octave, the high one with a sweeping phaser on it

[Prometheus]

Prometheus, hello. Man it got really cold here and the basil and sunflowers and michaelmas dasies and cosmos are just shot.

Will you clarify the statement below (re: Night)? Does it mean that orginally you had all instruments going dur. the middle 8, then switched off everything but bass on the middle 8 during mixdown? It cannot mean that, can it? Might work for 8 bars - once - but not for the back n forth p to FF in my tune.

Although I'm intrigued mightily w/ this idea...the idea of the signal - and the playing - having the presence by itself that it normally would when the dynamic level swells.

This is why you keep suggesting the beringer, right?

Sorry I took so long to notice this one Donna... No, I stopped playing the instruments during the middle 8, so I could achieve the dynamic change without to much studio flim flammery... To be honest, I am not fond of over done fader riding, it sounds unnatural. If I have to move a fader more than a couple of decibels in a mix, I tend to re-evaluate the compressor settings on that channel, because faders become exponentially less accurate the further from unity they are moved. You can achieve much finer control of the level on a track with a well set up compressor than you will with long throws of the faders.

And basically, for a mix to stand against modern CD's you have to compress everything to some degree. That's how modern mixes pump to the tempo of the song, it's all about setting the attack and release on the compressors, and calculating the time for your time domain effects...

60,000 / BPM (Beats per minute) = the number of millseconds per quarter beat.

You can then keep dividing this number by two until you get the number you want to punch in to your time domain effects. For the release in a compressor, it is usually between fifty and a hundred. For the attack on a compressor, just keep turning it up gradually until you have the amount of punch that you need. Usually between .1 and 10 millseconds will suffice, maybe more for basslines...

Just to clarify something in the paragraph above, the compressor will affect the dynamic range and the time domain...

Edited October 22, 2006 by Prometheus