Critiquing Lyrics Without Music

[sub7th]

I hope this is the right place to post this.

If not Im sure one of you kind souls will put it where it belongs?

I jumped on today in the hopes of contributing a bit and reviewing some lyrics.

I read the guidelines to critique and found them well thought out and agreed with them whole heartedly.

Maybe it's because I'm more of a self taught musician but I find it hard to review lyrics for a song with out some kind of back beat in my head. At least a time signature and or tempo.

Now Im a lyricist and a poet myself and I see the two as different art forms, a poem has freedom in verse, where as a lyrical arrangement should be an extention of the music to which it's applied, and vice-versa. At least thats my personal view on the subject.

So my questions are these;

1. When you write lyrics do you have some form of music or rythm in your head while you're writing?

2. When we critique here, should we be critiqing the poetic qualities of the lyrics or the rythmic qualities or both?

3. If rythm is to be critiqued, when a note is meant to be held for a certain count, how do we indicate this?

I hope Im not coming off wrong.

I'm very new to a "community" aspect of musical collaboration/evolution and I've always had a hard time sharing my musical ideas with others by any means short of just performing it. So I really would like to learn.

Mike

[Lazz]

Hi Mike.

I am also a self taught musoid geezer - well, I had a couple of priceless lessons in harmony and theory and continuous on-the-gog learning.

But I am a much more focussed lyricist as a result.

I agree about the difference in form twixt verse and song-lyrics - each a horse of vastly differing kidney.

Outside of song-forms, I stick to doggerel myself - purely for laughs.

1. When you write lyrics do you have some form of music or rythm in your head while you're writing?

Yes, I most certainly do.

2. When we critique here, should we be critiqing the poetic qualities of the lyrics or the rythmic qualities or both?

I think it should definitely be both.

How can they exist apart ?

3. If rythm is to be critiqued, when a note is meant to be held for a certain count, how do we indicate this?

You don't.

Or shouldn't need to.

If I somehow have a song-lyric that is in a fit state to be passed across to a musical collaborator, the one thing I am not going to do is give them any instructions or hints about my own pedestrian tune and groove ideas.

Theirs are so much better than I could ever imagine - that's why I work with 'em - because they are great at what they do - so why should I interfere with how they do it..

The rhythm is something else, though - the rhythm of language should speak out on it's own terms - it sure has to speak to my collaborators.

And it should have been written specifically with that essential sense of 'singability' in your mind all the time.

[john]

Hey

Good questions.

The balance of importance of lyric versus music is important. There is a symbiotic relationship between the two, although the balance is in part genre dependent in terms of the emphasis given to the lyric, it should always be appropriate.

Guidelines such as forms are merely there to point us in a direction of what other writers have found works.

1. When you write lyrics do you have some form of music or rythm in your head while you're writing?

Yes, although not necessarily a melody. These days I always have a melody in mind, although that might change, but I used to just write with a rhythm and then add melody. Far less successful.

2. When we critique here, should we be critiqing the poetic qualities of the lyrics or the rythmic qualities or both?

Both.

3. If rythm is to be critiqued, when a note is meant to be held for a certain count, how do we indicate this?

As Lazz says you don't.

I don't see lyrics as an extension of music. They go together. For me, the best songs have lyrics that stand on their own and music that stand on their own, but they are even better combined.

Songs describe an emotion, as an emotional journey, Both lyrics and music have dynamics. Both tell an emotional story. If anything the lyrics are the meat on the bone.

Cheers

John

[musicthom]

1. When you write lyrics do you have some form of music or rythm in your head while you're writing?

most defenatly

2. When we critique here, should we be critiqing the poetic qualities of the lyrics or the rythmic qualities or both?

I try to get the flow of the song and the rythmics of it but as im new to this too i don't allways get it right

3. If rythm is to be critiqued, when a note is meant to be held for a certain count, how do we indicate this?

good question i woud like to know this too

[sub7th]

Excellent, thanks for the feedback.

So I guess when I'm reading lyrics with the intention of critique, I should be looking at the basics of the structure and the message.

Delivery could change then depending on the song the lyrics are placed in. Seems a bit odd to me since it is not my process, but Lazz makes a lot of sense and I think I understand.

So essentially we're looking at how these lyrics could be used in a song, if at all?

And if they are to be used are they the kind of lyrics that might have the impact they are intended to have?

Critique on this might include, suggested word substitutions, or even phrase substitutions?

As for signature I'm assuming the usual is 4/4 around here?

So for rythmic critique we are looking at syllables per bar and the general pace, suggested flow changes, etc?

[john]

Hey

So I guess when I'm reading lyrics with the intention of critique, I should be looking at the basics of the structure and the message.

Among other stuff, yes.

Delivery could change then depending on the song the lyrics are placed in. Seems a bit odd to me since it is not my process, but Lazz makes a lot of sense and I think I understand.

Yes. Come up with a melody for a known lyric. Now come up with a completely different melody for the same lyric. See?

So essentially we're looking at how these lyrics could be used in a song, if at all?

Yes, although it is broader than that. Some things are pretty common requirements, such as being memorable.

And if they are to be used are they the kind of lyrics that might have the impact they are intended to have?

Critique on this might include, suggested word substitutions, or even phrase substitutions?

Correct. Also consistancy of theme and message, clarity of message, and conformance to guidelines such as rhyming, meter and hook placement.

As for signature I'm assuming the usual is 4/4 around here?

Probably a safe bet, though there will still be plenty of others.

So for rythmic critique we are looking at syllables per bar and the general pace, suggested flow changes, etc?

Well, consistancy in those aspects.

Unless otherwise instructed by the reviewee, and in the absence of fuller information we can only review against that which is common. With further info you can then hone in on specifics of say a genre. Common stuff usually still applies.

In general songwriters, and especially lyricists, try to write songs that transcend genres. Why? Simple, because that then has the maximum earning potential in terms of covers. For lyricists the added impetous is that their lyric has yet to find music, and making it acceptable to common standards give sit the maximum chance of finding someone who wants to put music to it. That's why I suggest looking at a song lyric using common question in absence of other guidance.(You did see these?)

Ou of interest, that is another reason for consistancy of meter and rhyme. They give a lyric/song it's best chance of portability.

Another aspect is appeal. The breadth of appeal etc. Always worth looking at both lyric and song from this angle. By using fairly common ingredients or methods of presentation, with the odd spice or two, we can put together something that is more likely to be palatable to the masses.

Cheers

John

[sub7th]

Makes perfect sense.

Thanks again.

I've tried to offer up some critique based on this.

I'll keep checking back and hopefully can offer some good suggestions.

[john]

Hey

How are you getting on? Finding it any easier?

Cheers

John

[sub7th]

Hey

How are you getting on? Finding it any easier?

Cheers

John

Hey!

Yeah I offered up some critique for a couple songs, hopefully it was helpful.

Unfortunatley life came around and slapped me in the face, big deadline on a project and I've been working late nights to hit it.

I think I'm supposed to get next week off so I should be around the forums a lot more.

Hopefully I can help out a bit.

[typo]

good topic

enjoying your time off?

[sub7th]

enjoying your time off?

INDEED!

I just spent 4 days on the couch playing video games and watching TV... I dont think I've done that since I was in high school.

I'm spending today on a commisioned painting.... promised it by Thanksgiving... oops!

And hopefully after T-Day tomorrow I'll get to writing some music.

Happy Thanksgiving to my fellow Yanks!