Is There Some Way To Work Out Chord Progressions?

[thesound]

It is sort of strange as all the chord progressions feature a chord for each key (a,b,c,d..) and they just have the numbers that seem to sound best (I,V,IV,I).

How would I go about working out the chord progressions for A Major or B Major? or G minor or A minor?

this is probably a silly question and I have used the wrong terminlogy. Hope you know what I mean.

[Lazz]

I'm not sure I really understand what you mean.

Please try again.

These are not silly questions at all.

But it helps to understand where you're at first.

.

[Retrosaurus Rex]

I think you're confusing the numbering system with the letter names, so I'll take a quick shot at the numbers and see if that help...

Uppercase letters represent a Major triad, lowercase is minor...

All Major keys have the following order of chords:

I-ii-iii-IV-V-vi-viidim

With the vii triad being not actually minor, but diminished...

The natural minor keys have the following order:

i-iidim-III-iv-v-VI-VII

You may appreciate an interesting symmetry as these scales share the same notes, but a different note is considered the root.

So, are you now looking to figure out the letter name & spelling for each of these chords?

[thesound]

You are all sort of right. Sorry if I have not made myself clear. Perhaps if I put you in the scenario I found myself it will become clear what I am trying to ask

I understand how the WWHWWWH system works to find a major scale. I was wanting to know how to solo over a collection of chords. These chords would be within a progression. I am guessing you cannot just use any chords and have one scale work. For a single scale to work over a chord progression the chords need to be belonging to a chord progression, right?

Am chord progression for instance.

If I am still making no sense. What I am looking to do is play a solo/bass line over some chords. I have been writing some chords, they sound alright together but then when I come to solo or write a bass line things get annoying and when I follow a chord progression things sound alright. That chord progression is someone elses but it is telling me something yet nothing.

..or do I just move the pentatonic scale to the right fret to fit the chords I am currently playing? B Maj, 4th fret.. E Maj, 9th fret etc

hmm

[thesound]

I think you're confusing the numbering system with the letter names, so I'll take a quick shot at the numbers and see if that help...

Uppercase letters represent a Major triad, lowercase is minor...

All Major keys have the following order of chords:

I-ii-iii-IV-V-vi-viidim

With the vii triad being not actually minor, but diminished...

The natural minor keys have the following order:

i-iidim-III-iv-v-VI-VII

You may appreciate an interesting symmetry as these scales share the same notes, but a different note is considered the root.

So, are you now looking to figure out the letter name & spelling for each of these chords?

This is quite close to what I meant.

so for instance the A major chord scale would be, A, Bm, Cm, D, E, Fm, Adim ? and the roman numerals would be used to show which order they are played in?

[Lazz]

so for instance the A major chord scale would be, A, Bm, Cm, D, E, Fm, Adim ? and the roman numerals would be used to show which order they are played in?

No.

No.

And no again.

A chord-scale is simply a scale which can be played with a chord.

The Roman numerals simply indicate the degree of a scale upon which the given chord is built.

Nothing whatsoever to do with the order in which they are played.

You have previously complained of the confusion of contradictions out there on the weird-wild-web.

This is due to two things, I reckon:

1. the inadequacies of the medium

2. the plethora of folk who don't really know what they're talking about but are gonna tell you anyway

The only real working solution is to get yourself a teacher - someone with whom you can clarify ambiguities as they arise, who is able to give you a solid but gradual cumulative understanding relevant to the direction of your struggles, and who is able to steer you away from the avoidable damage of well-intentioned mis-information.

For a single scale to work over a chord progression the chords need to be belonging to a chord progression, right?

Yes and no maybe.

I am getting the definite impression we have different meanings and understandings for the same terms.

A chord progression is a series of chords which happen to work well together in their sequence.

If every single one of those chords has been derived from one single scale, then the notes from that scale will work throughout that chord progression.

Am chord progression for instance

I have no idea what you mean here.

..or do I just move the pentatonic scale to the right fret to fit the chords I am currently playing? B Maj, 4th fret.. E Maj, 9th fret etc

I have no idea what you mean here, either.

The pentatonic scale? Which pentatonic scale are you talking about?

If the chord is B Maj, what is the fret information supposed to signify?

(Whatever fret you’re at, if you play B Maj, it’s still B Maj, right?)

What does the “etcetera” bit tell me?

Sorry about that – but it illustrates the language issues and problems with ambiguity we get on the net.

You are obviously very keen and asking the right questions – all that enthusiasm really needs to be focused and encouraged in the right direction to avoid frustration.

Underlines your need for a good teacher.

.

[Retrosaurus Rex]

This is quite close to what I meant.

so for instance the A major chord scale would be, A, Bm, Cm, D, E, Fm, Adim ? and the roman numerals would be used to show which order they are played in?

Better to say the harmonized A major scale...

[Lazz]

As I understand it, there are two co-existent theories of light.

In some circumstances the wave-theory is perfectly adequate in explaining and understanding while, in others, it’s the particle theory which does the job. So, both of them work. It’s the appropriateness of their focus which differentiates between them.

Similarly for music theory: simplistic triadic thinking is totally inadequate for understanding how chord progressions work and for making appropriate choices of scales to use in improvising solos over them. For basic folk and rock guitar strumming, it works just fine. But for making any further useful sense of what’s going on, it’s just too restrictive to bother with. It’s a blind-alley. It has absolutely no heuristic value.

Instead, what you need is to be hip to the process of chord-generation so that you are aware of the appropriate upper extensions beyond each simple triad – even if you are not voicing those notes in your chosen chord.

I can explain chord-generation in more detail in another post if you wish.

It is also valuable and useful, in terms of making sense of how chord progressions flow effectively, to recognise that the defining tones of a chord are the third and the seventh. The importance of this lies in the fact that a chord progression works through what is known as voice-leading – i.e. the gentle step-wise neatness of the way in which internal notes of chord-voicings move from one to another.

Look at this basic example from what is known as standard functional harmony. It’s called ‘functional’ because it assumes that each chord has a ‘function’ – i.e. a direction in which it naturally wants to move. Our example is known as the II-V-I, and is significant because the V chord is ‘unstable’ and feels as if it should naturally resolve to the I chord, while the II chord is naturally nudging it’s way towards that V chord.

Thinking in terms of the defining tones of the third and the seventh, this is how it works so sweetly as a progression in, for example, the key of C Major:

With the II chord being Dm7: the third is F and the seventh is C

With the V chord being G7: the third is B (just a half-step away from C) and the seventh is F (the same as the third of Dm7)

With the I chord being CMaj7: the third is E (just a half-step from F) and the seventh is B (the same as the third of G7)

The movement of those inner defining tones is quite minimal – do you see? – that’s what makes it smooth and effective.

Notice how the seventh of one chord flows to the third of the next and vice versa – that is what’s known as voice-leading – nice and easy.

Notice how all notes are derived from the scale of C Major – that means anytime you see Dm7 followed by G7, you can improvise using the scale of C Major.

If you can spare the time to wade through the disagreements and misunderstandings, you can find the most recent occasion when we attempted to grapple with chord progressions here – I don’t know how edifying you might find it – but I need to re-iterate that you should be aware of suspect information – however well-intentioned.

For instance, while both Andrew and Tom seem agreed on certain aspects of triadic thinking which obviously work quite happily for them, I want to take a little time to illustrate what’s wrong with it in terms of theory and its potential impact in terms of improvising your solo.

“the I chord will always be major”

Nothing wrong with that – you can safely use the scale tones from that major scale.

“the II chord will always be minor”

Nothing wrong with that, either – again, you can safely use the notes of the I Major scale from which it is derived.

“the III chord will always be minor”

This doesn’t quite give the whole picture – what we don’t want is to see a B minor in this function for example, and mistakenly presume it’s functioning as a II chord and hence conclude we can safely use the notes from A Major. There must be a better way of letting us know that it’s really a III chord. (And there is.)

“the IV chord always be major”

Again, this is not the whole picture – in the key of C Major, for example, this IV chord would be F Major – and, again, what we don’t want is to think we can safely use notes from the scale of F Major or we could run into some ugliness problems with that extraneous Bb. Again, there has to be a better way, and there is.

Some people will choose to spell this chord as 'Lydian', so we know explicitly that it has a raised fourth.

“the V chord will always be major”

Look Out !!

Maybe this could be the clearest example of my issues with triadic thinking. Once more in the key of C Major, it is more advisable to call the triadic V chord just a G triad or just G because, just like with the IV chord above, what we don’t want is to think we can depend on notes from the G Major scale. The G Major scale requires an F#. But the Major scale from which this V chord is derived is C Major – in which there is no F#. So we have another potential problem for soloing. The V chord is NOT a Major chord – it is a dominant chord – G7.

“the VI chord will always be minor”

Only in triadic thinking will this be true. The danger for the improvising soloist, once more in the key of C Major, is again to think that the Amin is functioning as a II chord, hence leading us to choose notes from the scale of G Major. Again, we could run into trouble with the mistaken seventh of that scale. Somehow, we need to be forewarned that the appropriate key is C Major.

“the VII chord will always be diminished”

Wrong.

The VII chord is what we call half-diminished – meaning that there are seven notes to its scale rather than the eight notes of the fully-diminished scale from which it is being distinguished.

I hope that helps demonstrate the limits of triadic thinking for understanding chord progressions and for providing useful working signposts for someone attempting to build a coherent solo.

As an example of how those ideas work in practice, let’s take the first 8 bars of Jerome Kern’s “All The Things You Are” – I know it’s not a rock’n’roll tune, but it’s part of the standard repertoire where I come from specifically because it contains within it all these little lessons and illustrations which are so fundamental to getting a basic understanding what’s going on in terms of progressions and the guidance they can offer to an improvising soloist.

I Fmi7 / / / I Bbmi7 / / / I Eb7 / / / I AbMaj7 / / / I

I DbMaj7 / / / I Dmi7 / G7 / I CMaj7 / / / I CMaj7 / / / I

The trick for an improviser is being able to spot from this that the first 5 bars are using VI-II-V-I-IV in Ab Major, and the last 3 bars use a II-V-I in C Major. So you can make a decent solo playing from those two different Major scales in their appropriate places.

It gets easier, the more you dive in and swim around.

You need a proper teacher.

This internet is dangerous.

.

[Retrosaurus Rex]

You need a proper teacher.

This internet is dangerous.

True & true. Especially about the teacher, can't say enough...

I'm glad Lazz has the time for these detailed explanations, a lot of good stuff in there, even if it is the "dangerous" internet...

[thesound]

Thanks. I have read through your information and I am glad and happy that you have taken the time to explain or expand on what I have been talking about.

I think maybe I cannot actually ask anyone I know and get the right answer (be that unknowingly or not) about what I am asking. I might not even be asking the question right. I do need a knowledable teacher, this is true.

My understanding of a chord progression was gained through "stuff on the net" and this:

- though it doesn't explain how the chords came to be used.

Sadly, this is all I can actually get. I was reading Guitar all-in-one (dummies) but it seems that to be.. not too good! maybe you could point me in the direction of some books that you know are very useful? or even a webpage.

The time I have spent working on all this is quite insane and the mear thought of it makes me sweat

[thesound]

As an example of how those ideas work in practice, let’s take the first 8 bars of Jerome Kern’s “All The Things You Are” – I know it’s not a rock’n’roll tune, but it’s part of the standard repertoire where I come from specifically because it contains within it all these little lessons and illustrations which are so fundamental to getting a basic understanding what’s going on in terms of progressions and the guidance they can offer to an improvising soloist.

I Fmi7 / / / I Bbmi7 / / / I Eb7 / / / I AbMaj7 / / / I

I DbMaj7 / / / I Dmi7 / G7 / I CMaj7 / / / I CMaj7 / / / I

The trick for an improviser is being able to spot from this that the first 5 bars are using VI-II-V-I-IV in Ab Major, and the last 3 bars use a II-V-I in C Major. So you can make a decent solo playing from those two different Major scales in their appropriate places.

Hmmm. How is it that you know that those two are in Ab Major and C Major? What are the tell tell signs?

Edited April 14, 2011 by thesound

[Lazz]

Hmmm. How is it that you know that those two are in Ab Major and C Major? What are the tell tell signs?

These are the relevant three paragraphs from what I posted above:

Look at this basic example from what is known as standard functional harmony. It’s called ‘functional’ because it assumes that each chord has a ‘function’ – i.e. a direction in which it naturally wants to move. Our example is known as the II-V-I, and is significant because the V chord is ‘unstable’ and feels as if it should naturally resolve to the I chord, while the II chord is naturally nudging it’s way towards that V chord.

Thinking in terms of the defining tones of the third and the seventh, this is how it works so sweetly as a progression in, for example, the key of C Major:

With the II chord being Dm7: the third is F and the seventh is C

With the V chord being G7: the third is B (just a half-step away from C) and the seventh is F (the same as the third of Dm7)

With the I chord being CMaj7: the third is E (just a half-step from F) and the seventh is B (the same as the third of G7)

The movement of those inner defining tones is quite minimal – do you see? – that’s what makes it smooth and effective.

Notice how the seventh of one chord flows to the third of the next and vice versa – that is what’s known as voice-leading – nice and easy.

Notice how all notes are derived from the scale of C Major – that means anytime you see Dm7 followed by G7, you can improvise using the scale of C Major.

They are all about a standard progression known as the II-V-I.

The II-V relationship is what to look out for – these are the tell-tale signs.

Dm7 to G7 is a II-V in the key of C

Remember that basic idea we have all repeated ad nauseam – and all to do with chord-generation – where we get chords from:

the II chord is built upon the second note of a Major scale using only notes from that Major scale.

the III chord is built upon the third note of a Major scale using only notes from that Major scale.

the IV chord is built upon the fourth note of a Major scale using only notes from that Major scale.

the V chord is built upon the fifth note of a Major scale using only notes from that Major scale.

the VI chord is built upon the sixth note of a Major scale using only notes from that Major scale.

the VII chord is built upon the seventh note of a Major scale using only notes from that Major scale.

Thus – every one of these chords is manufactured from the notes of the same scale.

So – every time we see one of those chords, we know that the notes from that Major scale will be ‘safe’.

*(Don’t forget that we aren’t at all limited to using just the notes from that Major scale – as you yourself noticed watching other players – and as you discussed with Tom in another thread – it’s simply that the notes from that Major scale will be the ones which present themselves most obviously and come pretty much with a guarantee that they are going to sound decent)

*(Don’t forget also – as I have been at pains to suggest in the above post – that we need to be careful not to be deceived into thinking that the III minor or the VI minor is working as a II chord just because of its minor quality.)

Q. How do we tell that a minor chord is happening as a II chord ?

A. When it is followed by the V chord.

So first we look to spot II-V progressions:

Dm7 to G7 is a II-V in the key of C

Ebm7 to Ab7 is a II-V in the key of Db

Em7 to A7 is a II-V in the key of D

Fm7 to Bb7 is a II-V in the key of Eb

F#m7 to B7 is a II-V in the key of E

etc.…………. (you can work out the rest yourself)

And there – in the 2nd and 3rd bar of our example – we have just such a II-V in the Bbmin7 to Eb7.

Plus – just to nail the point home in case of any uncertainty – it all resolves to the I Major chord in bar 4.

Voila!

It’s a II-V-I

I Fmi7 / / / I Bbmi7 / / / I Eb7 / / / I AbMaj7 / / / I

I DbMaj7 / / / I Dmi7 / G7 / I CMaj7 / / / I CMaj7 / / / I

In the 1st bar there’s an Fmin7.

This chord, contextually, sits quite happily as the VI chord of Ab Major.

(The VI chord is a regular standard normal add-on for the regular standard II-V – so, once you get used to it, the VI-II-V-I is a basic standard ‘vamp’-like progression to keep your eye out for just as much as the II-V-I)

So, in the first 4 bar phrase, we have a VI-II-V-I in the key of Ab Major.

Take a step back, briefly, to check out that root movement.

Fm7 – down a perfect 5th – Bbm7 – then up a perfect 4th to - Eb7 – then down a perfect 5th to Ab Major.

(Movements of a 5th and 4th are also indicators – in functional harmony they seem the most natural root movements and fall happiest in our ears while that other inner voice-leading is happening at a more gentle and closer step-wise pace.)

Now – up a perfect 4th from Ab Maj – and we get to the Db Maj in bar 5 – the IV chord of Ab Major.

All that stuff tells us that those first 5 bars are all happening in the key of Ab Major.

Now look at what’s happening in bar 5 and the start of bar 6, together – DbMaj7 to Dmin7.

Forget about the 5th notes of chords – they’re almost totally irrelevant for us – and remember that the defining tones are the third note and the seventh note.

From bar 5 to bar 6 it’s only the root note which changes by slipping upwards a half-step.

The third and seventh are exactly the same.

Voice-leading without doing anything!

The entirety of bar 6 contains our old friend, the II-V : Dm7 to G7

Bars 7 and 8 are CMaj7.

So altogether we have Dm7 to G7 to CMaj7.

II-V-I in the key of C Major.

I don’t think I can break it down any simpler.

Hope it makes sense for you.

RIDER

This theoretical stuff is good only for thinking, for analyzing, for practicing, for preparing, for finding answers to questions.

When you are really doing, when you’re playing for real – the game changes.

When you’re on the job the goal is to be able to hear your way through the changes, to be able to sing coherent melodies through those changes in your imagination: when you’re on the job the goal is to be able to express the melodies in your head immediately on your instrument without any intervening thinking processes.

Doesn’t happen overnight – but that’s what we aim for – hear something: play it.

There are practice games to help you get there.

[Lazz]

My understanding of a chord progression was gained through "stuff on the net" and this:

- though it doesn't explain how the chords came to be used.

Sadly, this is all I can actually get. I was reading Guitar all-in-one (dummies) but it seems that to be.. not too good! maybe you could point me in the direction of some books that you know are very useful? or even a webpage.

Well.

At least, from that vid, I now understand what you meant by “Am chord progression” and have a much better purchase on where you’re at.

I’m still going to leave everything I have posted up here just in case it has value for someone else, but it looks like you are happening right now pretty much close to starting-out level – even though your mind and curiosity is rushing ahead to pursue answers to core musical questions already – and that the stuff I have been describing is not going to be relevant to you for a little while yet.

There are NO books or webpages in my experience able to serve your needs.

Certainly none which I would confidently recommend.

The time I have spent working on all this is quite insane and the mear thought of it makes me sweat

You are wasting a lot of highly valuable spirit-fuel just spinning your wheels without a proper teacher.

But if you are so willing to invest time and sweat, I can tell you what Pat Metheny did with those very same magic ingredients. He brought home an album by Wes Montgomery and sat down with his guitar and the first track, listening and copying, working and sweating, until eventually he learned how to play what Wes was playing note-for-note. When he finished with track one, he went on to track two and did the same thing. And when he had made his way through the entire album, he went out and brought home another one and did the same thing with that one. Gradually, his progress became quicker.

Many players learned from records, from copying. Do enough of it and you just kind of soak up an internal understanding which will eventually give you an entire vocabulary to apply in your own way with your own accent and individuality. The same way that we all learned language. Listening.

The process goes like this

1. Emulation – 2. Assimilation – 3. Innovation

And all it takes is time and sweat – of which you have plenty.

Go for it.

[maxtor2290]

To me it's all a bit confusing in the previous posts with all the extra theory added, mixed with the different ways of saying the same things.

Below is basically a lot of information stripped down. It is how I learned when I started playing in the studio (Where I had to learn a totally different way of looking at how to make music).

I got this particular single sheet of information from somewhere, I don't remember where, and it basically explains what I never sat down and committed to writing. I don't remember where it came from but I typed it up from a hand written page I got a long time ago, longer than I care to elaborate on anyway, to give to the few students I take on so they would have something to take home with them as a study guide.

Its pretty basic. I learned this way of looking at it when I was learning the Nashville Number System. I don't think it's anything different than above it's only laid out different.

I don't know where your at musically on your instrument, but it sounds like your relatively new to it. Learn the 1, 4, and 5 of the major scale in every root position that starts on the 5th and 6th strings. From there, using the major scale, you can work out most any chord progression to any song you hear and use the same scale to add chords to your songwriting.

The 2, 3, 6, and 7 positions are usually, though not always, minor chords. If it sounds good, play it. If not, throw it out of the chord progression for the song.

Good luck!

max

Look at chords in the key of their root. For a C chord, use the C scale with C as 1.

CDEFGABC=12345671

Each chord has a root, third, and fifth or a simply 1, 3, 5.

Major chord ……………………..1 3 5

Minor chord ……………………..1 b3 5

Diminished chord …………..1 b3 b5

Augmented chord …………… 1 3 5#

Chord:

C major is CEG.

C minor is CEbG.

C diminished is CEbGb.

C augmented is CEG#.

The notes can appear in any order and be repeated. Basically the notes CEGCEG played together is still a C major chord even though the notes are repeated. Look at a C major chord at the nut or "open". 6-E, 5-C, 4-E, 3-G, 2-C, 1-E. Though the sequence is all jumbled up, it's a C major chord.

Seventh chords:

Simply add a seventh to the root, third and fifth.

Major seventh chord (Maj7)………………..1 3 5 7

Seventh chord (7) (regular 7th)………....1 3 5 b7

Half Diminished (minor seventh

or flat five (m7b5)…………………….1 b3 b5 b7

Augmented seventh (seventh

augmented fifth (7+5)……………… 1 3 #5 b7

Fully diminished seventh ( o ). ……………1 b3 b5 bb7

A fully diminished seventh chord repeats its intervals perfectly and any note in the fully diminished seventh chord can be the root.

Chords are basically built on every other note in the scale. So continue up the scale attaching the beginning of the scale at the end of the first section and you get:

Ninth chord: ………………………………….... 1 3 5 b7 9(2)

Minor 9^th: …………………………………………….1 b3 6 b7 9(2)

Eleventh is: ……………………………………….. 1 3 5 b7 9(2) 11(4)

Thirteenth is: ……………………………………..1 3 5 b7 9(2) 11(4) 13(6)

The thirteenth chord uses every note in the diatonic scale.

Suspended chords substitute either a four or a two for the three or flat three. 1 2 5 or 1 4 5

Add9 chord: ………………… 1 3 5 9

Drone chords. A drone chord consists of a root and a fifth. Being neither major nor minor it allows a melody to move from the b3 to the 3 and has kind of a bluesy sound.

[Lazz]

The thirteenth chord uses every note in the diatonic scale.

Crikey, Brad !

How many fingers do you have ?

To me it's all a bit confusing in the previous posts with all the extra theory added, mixed with the different ways of saying the same things.

Sorry about that.

I strive for clarity and simplicity but worry that I fail at too much, too often.

Your version is the one shared by many others and it serves them all perfectly well. Most importantly it works good enough for guys here, like you and Roxhythe and Musicthom and more, who get out there regularly gigging and giving real pleasure to real people. Job done.

I learned that way of looking at it too, back when I was a young folkie, and it worked for me. Big Bill Broonzy and Snooks Eaglin were the two guys who I wanted to be like first-off – and with records, a couple of basic books from the library, and odd help from other enthusiasts, I began to make a reasonably decent fist of it. But then my listening broadened and pretty soon Jim Hall was the player I wanted to be. I was awake now to a greater world of ways to drive from A to B. I could hear them all. But I couldn’t make sense of it in terms of the understanding I had under my fingers. My enthusiast friends were unable to help. And there were no books in the library for it. It was like I ran out of road. Or was repeatedly driving into a wall of my own blindness until the machinery eventually lay broken. The progress I desired at that point was stymied. Stuck.

When I struggled to go further – what I thought I knew, and the way I knew it, turned out to be not so good or useful anymore.

Like for figuring the changes and variants in progressions used by Jim Hall.

In the places where that old traditional home-learned folk-way of looking at it works – it works!

No contest.

No issue.

Nashville numbers are the same.

They work just fine for every ilk of the Nashville scene.

But not much further.

They don’t travel well.

One of my favourite Nashville guys was Hank Garland. Working with acts like Elvis, the Everleys, Orbison, Patsy Cline, Brenda Lee, Marty Robbins, Conway Twitty, Mel Tillis…… I’m sure Nashville numbers did the job. But they weren’t cut out for his work with Charlie Parker.

I’m listening to one of the rare Garland-led recordings at this very moment – “Jazz Winds from a New Direction” – on which the first track is the Jerome Kern tune I posted as an example, above, which in its entirety moves through half-a-dozen different key centres. You can bet that – if he had been required to sketch out a part for anyone at the session – Nashville numbers wouldn’t be at all fit for the purpose.

Horses for courses

Not interested in seeing anyone’s horse put down, but they do have different value in helping work out chord progressions.

And their mileage ratios are way different.

.