Does dissatisfaction lead to being lyrical?

[thelevellers]

More specifically, does feeling like a poor/mediocre lyricist make you a better/harder working one? 

 

It's been in my mind ever since someone at an open mic said my songs were 'really lyrical', when that's the last thing I would think to say about myself! But then I thought about it and realised that I have developed a habit of writing lyrics that end up being a 4/5 minute song... 

 

It also reminded me of an interview with one of my favourite songwriters, where he said he didn't think he was a particularly good lyricist, but tried his best. This is someone who has crafted several of the most pleasing to hear/read/sing lyrics I've come across! 

(come on, 'when you're a multi-headed hell hound, with a reputation for rage, the sympathies of those you meet are hard to engage' rolls off the tongue in a noisy pleasing way! From Flipron - Cerberus is as Cerberus does') 

 

Any way. That's my brain worm for today! 😁

[Rudi]

52 minutes ago, thelevellers said:

More specifically, does feeling like a poor/mediocre lyricist make you a better/harder working one?

 

Unlikely IMO, but it could be. It depends on the style you are going for. Gilbert & Sullivan comes to mind. I was a dreadful lycist in my 20s and the harder I worked hard to improve, the more contrived the words became.

 

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It's been in my mind ever since someone at an open mic said my songs were 'really lyrical', when that's the last thing I would think to say about myself! But then I thought about it and realised that I have developed a habit of writing lyrics that end up being a 4/5 minute song... 

 

They may not have been referring to your words. 'Lyrical' can be used to describe music without words.

 

[starise]

I don't feel a natural inclination to write lyrics though I am capable to do it. My reasons might be much different than yours.

 

I honestly don't feel the need to express myself in words through music . I'm content with the music itself much of the time. Good music can be appreciated by any language.

 

The reason I hesitate in lyric self expression is I don't want to be misunderstood. I think I take it to seriously. Most good lyricists I know  just begin with an idea and don't worry about the outcome.

 

I notice many writers who are more poets than lyricists. Poets tend to ramble with long  written ideas, even incoherent concepts. In music anything goes.

Would you rather put a poem to music or put music to a poem? As a musician it's much easier for me to do the latter. Or maybe you're blessed and can see both at the same time.

 

 

[Glammerocity]

Avoiding cliché is never a bad thing but having the chops to do so is another matter.

 

I knew a guy who had a rhyming dictionary but it didn't help, because he generally had nothing to say. I think if you know what you're trying to say and writing from an experience then the song will write itself. Well, you'll write it but it will flow out of you. It might not have fancy big words never before heard in modern youth culture but it will have a resonance, because it came from something real.

 

I always wrote lyrics separately, then set them to music. I found trying to do it the other way was contriving what I was trying to say. It's hard enough saying it and making it rhyme, without making it fit pre-set music.

 

 

Edited May 9, 2018 by Glammerocity

[thelevellers]

 

On 5/9/2018 at 3:50 PM, Rudi said:

They may not have been referring to your words. 'Lyrical' can be used to describe music without words.

 

Fair point, although I'm not convinced my style would be lyrical in that sense... Regardless, it did make me re-evaluate my lyrics - not necessarily the quality, but the quantity! Especially when I think about how effective a song with even only one repeated verse can be - short and sweet can be good, you don't need to be super verbose!

 

Starise and Glammerocity hit on two sides of my regular problem - I'm not great at matching music to lyrics, or lyrics to music! I often find fitting lyrics to music is constricting and I get demoralised when I can't make my thoughts fit. But equally, starting with a blank slate musically and a solid idea of the lyrics is definitely hard! Slowly getting better at both, though...

 

I'm interested/amused to see someone is the opposite of me on needing to be understood, though! I find lyric writing is my best outlet for what's stuck in my head, despite finding it a never ending battle of not-quite-getting-it-right. My less than amazing musical abilities are probably part of the issue there, though - I have a tendency of ending up with mismatching mood between lyrics and music. Can work on occasion, though!

[Rudi]

51 minutes ago, thelevellers said:

I'm interested/amused to see someone is the opposite of me on needing to be understood, though! I find lyric writing is my best outlet for what's stuck in my head, despite finding it a never ending battle of not-quite-getting-it-right. My less than amazing musical abilities are probably part of the issue there, though -

 

Lyrics that I feel I have got right, are seldom understood by anyone. It bugged me for a while. Now I just am aware that there is a bridge to build that may always remain under construction. So though mindful of it, it doesn't bother me too much now.

 

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I have a tendency of ending up with mismatching mood between lyrics and music. Can work on occasion, though!

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A lot of pro writers dont get that right. Lowell George's 'Easy To Slip' (Little Feat) was a prime example. I love the music and the lyric, but they jar together.

In fact, many writers seem oblivious of the whole concept. At least you are aware of it.

[starise]

5 hours ago, thelevellers said:

Starise and Glammerocity hit on two sides of my regular problem - I'm not great at matching music to lyrics, or lyrics to music! I often find fitting lyrics to music is constricting and I get demoralised when I can't make my thoughts fit. But equally, starting with a blank slate musically and a solid idea of the lyrics is definitely hard! Slowly getting better at both, though...

 

I struggle with it too.

 

I think some of it is getting hung up on the structure. Rockers sometimes get hung about classical musicians telling them what they can't or shouldn't do. If music doesn't follow their paradigim it isn't up to snuff. Then the rockers go and do a similar thing by demanding a verse chorus structure, or make laws about what pop/rock music is. Then it's up to the lyricist to "stuff" in the words.  Most rock has a guitar solo, a catchy beat and out front, even harsh vocals....why does this have to be?  It reminds me of tradesmen building a house. The carpenter has to leave room for the plumber, then the electrician needs room for his wires. If they all did what they wanted to do the house wouldn't be built correctly. 

Most modern music lends itself to thoughts expressed with few words and some form of repetition. Classical music is more elastic in that sense, not as structured,  so in some ways the rocker/pop artist is more limited unless you can squeeze the lyric into a very small space and present it in a way people will relate to. There were exceptions. Pink Floyd didn't always conform, Rush and a few others. Who were blasted by critics right up until and after they were both very successful.

 

It can be fun to sit and write. I see two persuasions of it. The poetic lyric that really doesn't make sense to the common man. Then we have the more up front "this is what it means" kind of thing.

 

Maybe try to do both to see what works best for you. 

Here goes my attempt at both 

 

A sea of fine lovin  came on and drowned me head to toe

How deep can I sink and like drowning?

 Wandering in aimless travel, never nailed down 

A laced ghost in my mind drew me to places of love

 

                                            .VS

 

 I seen you sittin on that swang at Hanks with a pout

I knew you were the one my momma told me about

You didn't have to speak, you didn't need to smile

Read you like a book I hadn't read in awhile.

 

Edited May 11, 2018 by starise

[Rudi]

On 5/11/2018 at 6:17 PM, starise said:

I think some of it is getting hung up on the structure.

 

You're right. Its partly why pop/rock/contemporary has been in the doldrums for so many years. Computers have made it easier to consolidate the formulaic incestuous nature of it.

 

I'm reading a music book at present that makes the point that nobody taught pop/rock/blues guitar in the 60s. So everybody created their own version. Nowadays everybody learns all the structure they require to get underway. Most everyone sounds like everyone else now.

 

I would prefer to find some music in a community where there was no access the radio, TV and computers. The music would probably be unsophisticated and limited, but more importantly, it would be uncontaminated.

[starise]

On 5/17/2018 at 5:11 AM, Rudi said:

 

You're right. Its partly why pop/rock/contemporary has been in the doldrums for so many years. Computers have made it easier to consolidate the formulaic incestuous nature of it.

 

I'm reading a music book at present that makes the point that nobody taught pop/rock/blues guitar in the 60s. So everybody created their own version. Nowadays everybody learns all the structure they require to get underway. Most everyone sounds like everyone else now.

 

I would prefer to find some music in a community where there was no access the radio, TV and computers. The music would probably be unsophisticated and limited, but more importantly, it would be uncontaminated.

 

Good points Rudi.

 

I also wish more came from the individual than what comes from  the pre conditioning.  

[starise]

Thanks for those comments Rob. Missed seeing you round'. I haven't been around much either too many things to do not enough time.

 

I like those lyrics you posted. 

 

I would love to sit down and have a go at it on lyrics. I don't follow the books though. I just write what comes out. I was never a book info type of person. Learned mostly by watching and doing...yeah I learned notation/keys/modes all of that. Never refer to it most of the time.

 

Look at many of the most famous songs in history.  Many were written on a napkin or sheet of scrap paper as a quick idea. Get too scientific on me and my eyes glaze over. 

 

Cheers Rob.