Many Chords Vs Fewer Chords?

[Rudi]

On 21/10/2015 13:01:47, Mihan said:

It really depends on the melody that you have. You just want to find the chords that go best with it and sometimes that'll end up being a bunch of different chords. This ended up happening for a song that I wrote where I wrote the melody before the chords. However, a lot of popular music is written with only 4 or 5 chords. Take Creep by Radiohead for example. That entire song is literally the same 4 chords in the exact same pattern for the entire duration of the song and it's in my opinion one of the best modern pop songs. 

I had forgotten all about 'The Creep'. I played it in a band once.

It seemed to me that R.E.M. had nicked the chord pattern from 'The Air that I Breath' (by Albert Hammond & Mike Hazelwood). The Hollies sang it. Others did later too.

[MikeRobinson]

Always remember: "Genius is most often a Genius in hindsight!"

As a composer / arranger / orchestrator, "by-definition you always have the First Move."  Just remember that your Audience has no idea what you have done.

[thepopeofpop]

The Beatles tended to use a lot of chords - there's relatively few of their hits that have a small number of chords (Paperback Writer, Love Me Do and The Ballad Of John and Yoko all spring to mind - and none of them really would be classed as amongst their best material) and most tend to have more than average.  It goes without saying that they were the most popular act of their era, and still probably the best selling of all time.  

Check out Yesterday, Strawberry Fields Forever, Penny Lane, Hello Goodbye ... just to name a few.   So I don't think that using more than 3 or 4 chords will put off the average listener, if the melodies are strong and accessible.

[MikeRobinson]

There's a song ... yes, yes ... Taylor Swift, "Can't Fight the Moonlight" ... in which the vocalist's singing rather noticeably doesn't change, as the harmony, switching from one key to another, continually re-positions it.

[DMon]

great discussion. my short answer is do wat u need to do to serve the song.. the melody will usually reveal wat chords are required and vice versa. also if fewer chords are needed u can always use different inversions of chords or a capo, which i never use btw lol.

aloha

[fullcirclemusic]

I tend to lean towards simple chord structures in my writing. I think that is a pretty big hallmark of most pop music nowadays. It can be very different from genre to genre. Yes, the beatles had some complicated chord structures, which at the time, worked pretty well. Those type of progressions would probably date a song out of being a modern pop song if you tried to go too far. I hate putting rules on songwriting, but that just seems to be the way that it works lately, and if you're writing towards a certain format, it's important to know the rules and characteristics of that format.

[lubeck]

In my opinion, the most important thing of the song is the melody, not the structure.

Not saying that great song structures are not important, but for me the melody comes first.

 

I always think of Twist and Shout when I read questions like this. The song has just 3 chords repeating over and over but, what a song ! 

 

I think that a songwriter might begin to concentrate on making good melodies, even if repetitive and then begin to try more complex chords structures.

 

Just my thoughts on this 

[Rudi]

3 hours ago, lubeck said:

In my opinion, the most important thing of the song is the melody, not the structure.

Not saying that great song structures are not important, but for me the melody comes first.

 

I always think of Twist and Shout when I read questions like this. The song has just 3 chords repeating over and over but, what a song ! 

 

I think that a songwriter might begin to concentrate on making good melodies, even if repetitive and then begin to try more complex chords structures.

 

Just my thoughts on this 

 

Hugo,

Twist & Shout to me has a 'groove'. If that groove could be used with a different melody (it needs to remain simple) I think it would still work well.

 

Try to imagine Twist & Shout in triple time (3/4). Even with the same melody, the groove is lost. But maybe it still works for you?

[stretch]

The point about Gloria is that it's in strophic form, the same material repeated throughout the whole song, and very short by today's standards. It just scrapes past 2:30. Blur tried the same trick with Song 2 and only just made it to 2 minutes.

 

Those R&B based forms "held" in the 50's and 60's (as did songs based on 12 bar blues), but it's been a long time since anything like that made it onto mainstream radio. Those forms are just too slight, too flimsy, to sustain the weight of material and content that we've become accustomed to and expect.

 

There's also a difference between 3 chords where you go round and round the same 3 in the same order, and 3 chords where they get mixed up a bit. Highway to Hell basically only has 3 chords, (there's that dominant E chord at the end of each verse) but there's a big difference between how they're used/approached in the verse and the chorus.

[stretch]

On 17 August 2016 at 1:36 PM, lubeck said:

I always think of Twist and Shout when I read questions like this. The song has just 3 chords repeating over and over but, what a song ! 

 

Agree on the "what a song part", but Twist and Shout isn't just the same 3 chords repeating. The solo mixes things up a bit with an extra chord on the descent, but the biggest change is the held dominant 7th on the "aahs" (for 6 bars).

 

By today's standards, the changes are fairly basic, but they are there.

[ImKeN]

Lately, I've been trying to find current songs(that I usually listen to: pop) that have more than one simple chord progression throughout... And I only managed to find one,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JF8qyGAHLFM

 

Do you know any 2016 pop song that has more than one simple chord progression?

 

Thanks,

 

Ken

[TCgypsy]

The only rule I have is the song has as many chords as it takes! :-p

 

As long as it works, that's the main thing but chord choices and progressions can sometimes be a challenging part of the process.

 

Peace,

TC

[Pantonal]

I'm classically trained, but also played keyboards and guitar in rock bands for many years, so my perspective is one of knowing perhaps more than I need (for popular music).

 

The purpose of a song is presumably to tell a story or express an emotion (usually both). Sometimes that story's "ain't life great! and sometimes it's a tragedy. The range of emotions can go from exuberance to utter despair. The purpose of harmony is to support and emphasize the emotional impact of a song. I'm of the opinion that you can never know too much. It's easy to disparage (as Lou Reed did) those who know they're doing. I would be the first to tell you that when I'm writing in the popular realm I tone down my harmonic lexicon in order to be more accessible, but I'll only go so far. I really like it when I write something and the average Joe says that sounds cool and the musicians are wondering what the heck I did.

 

I remember once learning a ZZ Top song when I was asked to sub for another guitarist, at one point the other guitarist says, "And here you play 16 bars of G."  I was thinking I would be bored out of my mind doing that (it was the middle of the song breakdown) and it wasn't that boring if I used that interval to get into the rhythm and put on a show for the audience. I sometimes wonder if those who think 3 chords in a song is just fine have really explored the nuances of harmony, such as the unique and powerful sound of open fifths with the third in the bass (what classical guys would call a first inversion chord) or how a flatted seventh in the bass pulls the harmony toward the subdominant (fourth). To me that's pretty basic stuff that adds impact to music. You just can't have too many tools in your toolbox, or another way to think of it is, if you're a professional why would you want fewer tools in your toolbox? You don't have to use them, but it helps to know what they are and how to use them.

[TCgypsy]

3 hours ago, Pantonal said:

I'm classically trained, but also played keyboards and guitar in rock bands for many years, so my perspective is one of knowing perhaps more than I need (for popular music).

 

The purpose of a song is presumably to tell a story or express an emotion (usually both). Sometimes that story's "ain't life great! and sometimes it's a tragedy. The range of emotions can go from exuberance to utter despair. The purpose of harmony is to support and emphasize the emotional impact of a song. I'm of the opinion that you can never know too much. It's easy to disparage (as Lou Reed did) those who know they're doing. I would be the first to tell you that when I'm writing in the popular realm I tone down my harmonic lexicon in order to be more accessible, but I'll only go so far. I really like it when I write something and the average Joe says that sounds cool and the musicians are wondering what the heck I did.

 

I remember once learning a ZZ Top song when I was asked to sub for another guitarist, at one point the other guitarist says, "And here you play 16 bars of G."  I was thinking I would be bored out of my mind doing that (it was the middle of the song breakdown) and it wasn't that boring if I used that interval to get into the rhythm and put on a show for the audience. I sometimes wonder if those who think 3 chords in a song is just fine have really explored the nuances of harmony, such as the unique and powerful sound of open fifths with the third in the bass (what classical guys would call a first inversion chord) or how a flatted seventh in the bass pulls the harmony toward the subdominant (fourth). To me that's pretty basic stuff that adds impact to music. You just can't have too many tools in your toolbox, or another way to think of it is, if you're a professional why would you want fewer tools in your toolbox? You don't have to use them, but it helps to know what they are and how to use them.

 

As a trained musician fluent in music theory, I couldn't agree more. While my background is more jazz oriented than classical, the concepts are pretty much the same.

 

Honestly, I never really think about the music theory side when writing a song. However, it does come into play when I am figuring out a solo or background harmonies, or adding comp parts (I like utilizing different chord voicings to impart 'color'). I also like tossing in some time signature changes (I am a big fan of odd time) in songs like the 7/8 I used for the guitar breaks in Sadie Masterkiss, a song I just completed about 2 weeks ago. My only rule is I never try to force anything. If it feels/sounds right I do it; I never arbitrarily set out to use complex harmonies, key changes, or odd time signatures. However, doing this can as an exercise can certainly help folks get a handle on executing some of these types of techniques. As you stated, the more you have in your 'toolbox' the more ways you have to express yourself in your art.

 

Peace,

TC

[BlackHoleGravity]

Granted, I am no expert, but I fall into the if it sounds good then it is good camp...too many rules get confusing to me :-)

[PleaseKeepUpright]

When I listen to music, I very naturally hone in on the chord progression first. I guess the melody has always been the "obvious" focus or whatever. I don't know, but when I started writing I wrote my melodies around my chords and that remains at least half the time to be the case even today. 

 

Therefore, when I'm hearing a new song for the first time and there's fewer chords, unless the arrangement pulls off something really impressive or the melody is interesting, I tend to tune out. Songs with four chords or less, god forbid they repeat the entire track, more often than not bore me to death. Like I mentioned, there are a few exceptions. Gnarls Barkley's "St. Elsewhere" is only three or four chords set on an incessantly dull loop (like a lot of tracks on that album), but the swirling soundscape and instrumentation keeps it in my high regard. Sometimes even lyrics can save a simple song, like Panic! At the Disco's "Northern Downpour". Indian classical and raga music characteristically drones a single chord, but f*ck I love the sound of that music, and the unique melodies of that genre take center stage.

 

While melody remains a big part of my songwriting, especially since I write instrumentals, I try to steer clear of using fewer chords and or repeating them for too long. Granted, there are times when I do, and I certainly don't try to shove in 19 chords into a song that doesn't need it. Still, some of my favorite compositions of mine are on the more complex end of that spectrum.

 

...Wait, crap, that last sentence didn't come out right.