Using Synths Live Within A Band

[Rickidiot]

I know this is not a simple question but I would really appreciate it if someone could simplify the answer for me.

We are a rock band comprising drums, guitar x 2 and bass. We had a keyboard player and have been used to having the flexibility of this. Basically we want a synth part of the band that can be triggered by the guitarist, played live at times but sequenced at other times. Obviously we are aware that we need some sort of tempo clock and headphones for the drummer etc but I have absolutely no idea what equipment we would need, we wish to use arpeggio synth sounds, strings, samples etc etc. Please help.

[justsoulin]

I'd like to know too

[Kaalypso]

I don't know either, but I know it is pretty straightforward to do

 

But  as a real live synth player, I feel I should take offense to the concept, and this topic

 

Synth players don't eat much, are fairly clean and vermin free, usually will not sleep with the guitarists girlfriend, and do not go on violent rampages

 

Get one!

[TapperMike]

How talented is this guitarist? How tech savvy? How much time and money is he willing to invest?

 

 

There is a company that will build a double neck standard guitar and starr labs clipper if you have enough money.

 

I have a love hate relationship with ableton live. While I love the possibilities I hate the realities of dealing with the program.  The reason why there are so many after the fact timing fix features is because it's got some horrible timing to begin with and....For each non ableton live plug in you use the latency doubles..Nonetheless Ableton live is the defacto standard and you don't need to get the full version.  Many third party companies provide a "lite" version with a limited amount of midi and audio channels.

 

Live operates on ... key mapping  Midi can send and receive on up to 32 channels (16 stereo channels) Not all devices can acknowledge left right as different signals) So even if you have 16 channels you can designate one channel for key mapping start/stop this can be done scene or track wise.  A track can have more then one instrument or loop. So rows are "scenes" Columns are "tracks"  

Playing around in this type of environment is a lot of fun once you get the hang of it.  It took me forever to figure out all of this stuff I should have spent more time watching videos on how to use live. Yes one can simply mouse click on a computer to activate loops but that becomes very difficult in a live situation. Ableton Live is a very very cpu intense program. It's not going to work on an ipad.  There are several after market products that are durable for working the session view in a grid layout.  You don't have to invest in a starr labs clipper

 

 

However I would caution against trying to use these "mpc' type pad controls for actually trying to record with. Most are not velocity sensitive and those that are usually have a very bad response to velocity. Things like aftertouch/expression go straight out the window.  Nanopads are more responsive however lack feature sets and you'll be spending long hours trying to key map them with live.

 

So now we have something else to cover... Are you going to use prefabricated loops or are you going to make your own for your music?

Playing with prefabricated loops is hours of fun in isolation.  However it's not conducive for working in a band. Especially a live band that has to pay bills.  Even if you have the right tempo /time signature and key that doesn't mean a loop is going to jive with what your band has already put together.  You'll go through library after library of loops trying to find something that might or could fit. If you try to do that collectively in a band setting it's likely everyone is going to get frustrated rather quickly.  When I work in this type of environment I'm flexible. Often times I'll re-write my parts so they jive with the loops.  Sometimes it works...Sometimes it doesn't.  I've got the time and am willing to take it but some others might not.

 

Writing/recording your own loops.

Some guitarists can migrate to playing the keys.  Not me. There are several pitch to voltage converters on the market as there have been for several years.  I think they all suck.  I say that having played "guitar synths" since the first (pre midi) ones hit the market.  :Latency can be anywhere from 33 ms and up on these devices and any latency you have with your computer / daw can increase that value. It is rarely an organic experience.

 

 

Look how stiff he is playing and it's still kicking in at over 60ms It gets worse when he tries to use the triple shot for guitar rig.  This is supposed to be a professional video under ideal situations using the most cutting edge technology for pitch to midi conversion.  To me that's pathetic.  I've been spoiled by my stars over the years.  A ztar into a dedicated synth/workstation has 1ms delay same as keyboard to keyboard. A ztar via usb has a 3ms delay  Which isn't noticeable at all.

 

I've been playing ztars for years now. I've also tried the fistman triple play in a store and was highly unimpressed.  I've also played a yourock which was a complete disaster and a yamaha EZ EG which was plagued with so many problems it's not worth getting into in this thread.

 

For me the solution was simple... Ztar.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC-i12EenJT-WrqieRlUcDQg

 

Playing the ztar has changed my total approach to music and techique

Tapping on a guitar used to be a mainstay technique for me.  Playing a ztar has opened up new approaches to tapping that aren't possible on a standard guitar.  I'm less inclined to tap on a guitar as I have been in the past.  However tapping on a ztar accounts for 90% of my ztar playing now. It's not that I cant "knock and roll" on the baby z or pick on my z6 it's simply that tapping (either or both hands) is much more fun.

 

While it doesn't have the pretty lights of a star clipper I can still key map on the ztar using zones just like any ableton live controller and still have plenty of space left over to play something on top.  (yes it was a little work for me to figure out key mapping)

@600 plus shipping a baby z is a great way for a guitarist to get into the world of midi and have an instrument that isn't a throw away.

http://www.starrlabs.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=59_60&product_id=50

 

Even though it does look plasticy (not really it's a carbon fiber material) It's quite durable. Neither the yourock nor the yamaha ez eg lasted the first six months and they were full of problems from the get go.

 

A buddy of mine Les Fradkin uses a Z7.   Often during live performance he just uses his ztar live on stage for guitar parts via plugins, as well as other midi instruments and uses it to control live all in one.https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC4u24Rs-_aTCCZneX8D5AmA

 

There is an adaption period when moving to a ztar.  Shorter for a logarithmic (rubber strings) then a standard (plastic buttons) and it varies with the person.  

[justsoulin]

Thx Mike, interesting.

 

Just got a Launchpad, no userguide and I don't use what the help video's use ref DAW. So a 'bit' confused at the moment

[Kaalypso]

Just ordered a Launchpad.....Yay! more confusion in my future. But if nothing else it will look pretty sitting next to my Novation MiniNova and play nice with my Ableton. Thanks for the tips Mike

[justsoulin]

If you use Ableton, the Launchpad will be easier, because of all the youtube help

[Rickidiot]

Looking at launch pad as we speak, I like the look of that baby that's for sure. So you reckon I'm gonna defo need some sort of laptop then? Thought I might,

I would definitely get a synth player to do this live but just can't seem to find anyone, not in Leeds anyway.

[justsoulin]

A pretty 'good' laptop, and only if it's for fun

 

Do some searching, Launchpad Vs Maudio etc Work out what each works with (as in DAW etc)

[Kaalypso]

I think this would be awsomme for you. Its got a regular launchpad, a smaller launchpad, and a mini synth with more launchpad which would be cool so like the the bass player or anyone can drop what they are playing, (or keep playing that instrument if  they are like super talented) and step over and riff on the synth, which would look cooler than pushing buttons

 

http://www.amazon.com/Novation-Control-Bundle/dp/B00GP66VG0/

[TapperMike]

I can't stress this enough.  If you can't work ableton live without a controller it's not worth getting a controller for live. Ableton live is not your average Daw. It didn't come easy for me and it may not come easy for you.  

 

First watch a bunch of "ableton live basics videos

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=ableton+live+basics

 

Then download a trial of the program and go through those same basics till you know how to import clips, create loops etc etc.

 

You don't "need" to purchase the full version of ableton live if you buy launchpad new from a retailer (online) or locally.  Ableton "Live Lite" will be included.  I'm currently running live lite 8.(something)  I got live lite 6 with something I bought and have been given free updates through the years.

[justsoulin]

 

I can't stress this enough.  If you can't work ableton live without a controller it's not worth getting a controller for live. Ableton live is not your average Daw. It didn't come easy for me and it may not come easy for you.  

 

First watch a bunch of "ableton live basics videos

https://www.youtube....ton live basics

 

Then download a trial of the program and go through those same basics till you know how to import clips, create loops etc etc.

 

You don't "need" to purchase the full version of ableton live if you buy launchpad new from a retailer (online) or locally.  Ableton "Live Lite" will be included.  I'm currently running live lite 8.(something)  I got live lite 6 with something I bought and have been given free updates through the years.

 

[Rickidiot]

For some reason I thought this would have been a lot easier. A synth to produce the parts onto a sequencer and some sort of simple trigger pad to trigger them live, doesn't sound like that sort of thing exists, I may have to invent it.

[TapperMike]

Well yeah there used to be things like Emu Command stations.  I had one.  It had a lot of great sounds in it and some gawd awful loops.  One cup of coffee ruined it for good.  

 

 

It's actually a bit of a pain to get a handle on with the small display area for scrolling through sounds and or patterns and or other stuff.

[TapperMike]

Even the big name expensive keyboard workstations are a pain for setting up and recalling loops.  Most are designed around performance.  You have to go deep deep into the editing features just to get things like recalling loops.

[Rickidiot]

Laptop it is then