Composing For A Specific Genre?

[SmokeyJoe]

So, my question is: what are the compositional elements that give a musical genre it's distinctive "feel?" I'm particularly interested in swing and surf, but information on other styles of music would also be appreciated.

 

This question is something I've been struggling with for a while now, and one of the main reasons I decided to seek out songwriting forums like this one. I listen to a lot of different kinds of music, but although I can easily tell one genre from another, I have an extremely hard time pinning down what separates the sound of, say, Big Band Swing from Industrial or Surf Rock. I don't mean the obvious things, like instruments, tempo, use of synths, distortion, etc. You can play a heavy metal riff on an acoustic guitar or even a trumpet and it still has a distinctively metal feel to it--nobody's going to mistake it for swing just because you've switched instruments.
 

From what little I know of musical theory, I'm guessing it has something to do with the scales, chords and rhythms commonly used in each genre. But although I've done a lot of research on the subject, I've never been able to find a list of elements common to a specific musical style--or even much discussion on the subject. Mostly I just come across people saying "if you want to play [X] style of music just listen to a lot of bands that play that style and you'll pick it up."

 

My problem is that I've been listening to surf and swing for pretty much my entire life, and apparently I can't "just pick it up." I can recognize a swing or surf melody when I hear it, and I can even recognize elements of one genre in another style of music, but I can't for the life of me figure out what about a song gives it that distinctive feel.

 

The upshot is, I can't write swing or surf music "on purpose." I have to just wait until I stumble into a melody that sounds right with no clear idea of why it sounds that way--and it doesn't happen often. As someone who deeply loves both genres and would like to write songs in them, it's more than a little frustrating.

[Rudi]

I had to check a couple of examples to be sure these genres were still what I thought they were.

 

Surf: From what I hear there are 3 retro components.

 

Structure: Rhythm. Lots of the rhythm styling features an accent on the implied 7^th beat in 4/4 or 6/8 timings. In other words if you sub divide the 4/4 bar into 8^th measures, the last beat (the 7^th) will be as prominent as the first. In short. You hear a preceding 8^th prior to the 1^st beat of the bar. This may not be definitive, buts it’s common.

 

Colour: The sounds are from early 60s. The clean guitar with spring reverb. The ongoing sizzling ‘white noise’ cymbals.

 

Technique: The light cymbal rides. The speed alternating flatpicked guitar, which is like a mandolin style.  

 

 

 

Swing: I will only talk about rhythm here.

Again the 8^th is important. The straight 8^th (half) beat is replaced by a shuffle 8^th . I’ve heard it said that the 8^th itself is further divided into triplets and you play on or between the first 2 triplets and not the third. Others will say that is a desperate description of a rhythm that can only be ‘felt’ rather than written/defined. So the ‘swing 8^th’ broadly defines the style. So phrases in swing use the implied 8^th which is ‘across’ the beat rather than on the beat.

 

We need examples here.

Rather than me provide them, perhaps you would. Then this whole description thing would be less abstract.

[SmokeyJoe]

I had to check a couple of examples to be sure these genres were still what I thought they were.

 

Surf: From what I hear there are 3 retro components.

 

Structure: Rhythm. Lots of the rhythm styling features an accent on the implied 7^th beat in 4/4 or 6/8 timings. In other words if you sub divide the 4/4 bar into 8^th measures, the last beat (the 7^th) will be as prominent as the first. In short. You hear a preceding 8^th prior to the 1^st beat of the bar. This may not be definitive, buts it’s common.

 

Colour: The sounds are from early 60s. The clean guitar with spring reverb. The ongoing sizzling ‘white noise’ cymbals.

 

Technique: The light cymbal rides. The speed alternating flatpicked guitar, which is like a mandolin style.  

 

 

 

Swing: I will only talk about rhythm here.

Again the 8^th is important. The straight 8^th (half) beat is replaced by a shuffle 8^th . I’ve heard it said that the 8^th itself is further divided into triplets and you play on or between the first 2 triplets and not the third. Others will say that is a desperate description of a rhythm that can only be ‘felt’ rather than written/defined. So the ‘swing 8^th’ broadly defines the style. So phrases in swing use the implied 8^th which is ‘across’ the beat rather than on the beat.

 

We need examples here.

Rather than me provide them, perhaps you would. Then this whole description thing would be less abstract.

 

Thanks a ton for the response Rudi! This is exactly the kind of information I was looking for. Some of the terminology is a little over my head, which I more of less expected, but it should be easy enough to look up. I really appreciate you taking the time to lay this out for me.

 

You're right that examples can be a big help. One person's notion of the "definitive" songs of a genre can often be very different from another's, so here's a few of mine:

 

-Surf-

 

Misirlou - Dick Dale (Or pretty much anything by Dick Dale and His Del-Tones, really. His cover of Riders In the Sky is amazing.)

Pipeline - The Chantays (Hard to say whether I prefer the original or The Ventures' cover)

Mr. Moto - The Bel-Airs

Phantom on Lane 12 - The Mono Men

Daikaiju Die! - Daikaju

 

Even some punk songs have distinctively surf-sounding elements, like Agent Orange's Bloodstains or the Dead Kennedys' Holiday in Cambodia. Of course, a lot of Dead Kennedys' songs sound like really pissed off surf music, and Agent Orange has been known to do some freaking awesome surf covers.

 

(Just as a warning, those Dead Kennedys tracks are suuuper NSFW, and more than a little political.)

 

-Swing-

 

When I think of swing music, the first thing that comes to mind is Minnie the Moocher by Cab Calloway. Cab's pretty much the god of swing as far as I'm concerned, but just for the sake of variety:

 

Sing Sing Sing (With A Swing) - Benny Goodman

Is You Is Or Is You Ain't (My Baby) - Louis Jordan

St. James Infirmary - Louis Armstrong

Save My Soul - Big Bad Voodoo Daddy

Zoot Suit Riot - Cherry Poppin' Daddies

Hey Pachuco! - Royal Crown Revue

Stray Cat Strut - Stray Cats (Some might say this is closer to Rockabilly, but just listen to that bassline!)

 

...and of course, I'd be remiss if I didn't mention: Why Don't You Do Right? - Amy Irving (Sorry Peggy Lee, but you've got nothing on this version.)

 

Well, now that I've let my inner music nerd flail all over the place, hopefully that'll provide a better cross section of the kind of musical styles I'm referring to.

Edited April 21, 2015 by SmokeyJoe

[Rudi]

ok good.

But give me a day or two to digest some of these.

Looking fwd to those Surf tunes!

[SmokeyJoe]

ok good.

But give me a day or two to digest some of these.

Looking fwd to those Surf tunes!

 

No problem, and thanks again! I really appreciate you taking the time and effort to help me out with this.

[Rudi]

I have now listened to all the links (that I didn’t already know well). I am surprised to find that there is not much to add from my original assessment.

The time aspect to Surf is even more common & pronounced than I thought it would be. It’s even in the punk stuff.

 

There is also a tendency to borrow from Arab sounding scales. I stress the word  ‘sounding’. Its more an impressionistic sound than authentic. This all tracks back to Dick Dale of course. Misirlou has become an icon of genre definition apparently.

 

To summarise surf (sorry experts): the accented time already described. Early rock colouration (guitar sounds etc) and riffs. Very derivative in nature I would say.

 

That is not to say that I am any sort of expert. I have just applied some working knowledge to what I recall of these genres. That is; I thought about them and told it how I see it.

 

 

There is already a lot written about Swing online. I didn’t find anything that contradicted what I said, but it’s worth a search on your own.

 

TapperMike would have been good to talk on swing. He would be informative I think.

Hello Mike !? (he’s still job hunting I think. So I wont shout too loud).

[SmokeyJoe]

I have now listened to all the links (that I didn’t already know well). I am surprised to find that there is not much to add from my original assessment.

The time aspect to Surf is even more common & pronounced than I thought it would be. It’s even in the punk stuff.

 

There is also a tendency to borrow from Arab sounding scales. I stress the word  ‘sounding’. Its more an impressionistic sound than authentic. This all tracks back to Dick Dale of course. Misirlou has become an icon of genre definition apparently.

 

To summarise surf (sorry experts): the accented time already described. Early rock colouration (guitar sounds etc) and riffs. Very derivative in nature I would say.

 

That is not to say that I am any sort of expert. I have just applied some working knowledge to what I recall of these genres. That is; I thought about them and told it how I see it.

 

 

There is already a lot written about Swing online. I didn’t find anything that contradicted what I said, but it’s worth a search on your own.

 

TapperMike would have been good to talk on swing. He would be informative I think.

Hello Mike !? (he’s still job hunting I think. So I wont shout too loud).

 

Alright, thanks again!

 

Definitely get what you mean about Arab "sounding" scales. When researching surf music I found out that Misirlou is actually an instrumental arrangement of an old Greek folk song about a man who falls in love with an Egyptian woman. So basically the psuedo-Arab sound goes all the way back to there, where it was actually intentional. After that I guess it just got picked up and incorporated into the genre.

 

I really appreciate you taking the time to help me with this. A lot of what you've said makes a ton of sense now, but for some reason I couldn't distinguish it on my own before having it pointed out to me. I guess music is like that sometimes. At any rate you've given me much better insight into this genre and a number of good starting points to wrap my head around how to write music that has that classic Surf sound to it.

 

It'll probably be a long time before I'm good enough to actually play any of it, but at least I know what direction I'm headed in now instead of wandering around in the dark, so to speak.

[Rudi]

Glad to be of some help. PM me if you create anything on these lines. Id be interested

[SmokeyJoe]

Glad to be of some help. PM me if you create anything on these lines. Id be interested

 

Sure thing, and thanks again!

[Rudi]

I was thinking yesterday that Calexico have distinct ties into the surf category. I have two of their albums. 

I tend not to think in genres so it never occurred to me earlier. 

 

Take a listen here

 

[SmokeyJoe]

Oh definitely, you can really hear it in their guitar playing. It's funny, while researching surf music I found out that it actually had a big influence on the music used in those old spaghetti western movies, so now a lot of more western/country style songs also have that sound.

 

I hear you about not thinking in genres. They're really just artificial boundaries for the most part, whereas the music itself tends to incorporate elements from a wide variety of sources. In my head I usually classify music more in terms of sound or feel, but those concepts are kind of nebulous and don't really translate into words very well, so in conversation I'll often tag a label such as "surf" or "swing" or "punk" on there to give other people a general idea of what I'm talking about. As a result I tend to use genres a bit more broadly than most people seem to.

 

I suppose once I get a better understanding of musical theory I'll have an easier time describing the different elements I hear in songs, but thus far that understanding has been very slow in coming. My brain just doesn't seem to be wired in a way that's compatible with some of those concepts--or at least with how they are typically presented.