We all doubt our abilities, but ...

[GregB]

 

Whenever writing or recording I'm always plagued by doubt.  Am I any good as a writer/performer/producer?  Is the track any good?

But, when the process is complete, if I'm pleased/proud of it and I've done my best ... that's all that matters.

[john]

Funnily enough, during the entire process of creation, from idea until final edit, my ability or lack of it doesn’t enter my head. Never. It just isn’t a factor. I tend to be consumed by creating. I can be pretty focused!

 

The closest to what you describe is when I play the finished song to people and I see certain types of reactions from certain types of listener. At that point I might question if the song could have been better or is it just differing taste? I don’t question my abilities or lack of them. I am straight into an analysis of what worked and why. I have to make mistakes to learn effectively. We all do. I don’t lack abilities. I just might not have had the exact abilities I needed at the time. That is not a fault or weakness, because the truth is… while a song may dominate the moment, it is not about the song. It is about all of the songs. Collectively.
 

Mostly I believe I am the harshest judge of my songs. So I don’t fear the judgement of others. Just because they judge it one way does not make their opinion a fact. Even if it were, they can judge my song all day, but I am not my song. They can hold an opinion on me, but it is just an opinion.

 

I used to feel that way on stage too. At least after the first number nerves settled and those nerves where about being rehearsed enough to do the songs justice. I didn’t care if people judged me. I was up there doing something most of them would never seriously consider doing. So what if they didn’t like my moves? At least I was up there! I will be interested in their opinion from a learning perspective, but that is it. All I am learning from most is some observations from their perspective. It’s interesting, but hey, their shit ain’t golden. Even if they knew everything there was to know about songwriting and performance, which they don’t, they too started less good and then with work they improved. It’s nothing to feel bad about. If they want to shame me that says more about them than me. That aside, as I say, I am almost always my worst critic.

 

What I might feel bad about is if I feel I cut corners and made unnecessary compromises. It is a rarity because it’s not the way I work. I try to not instantly clamp down on my creativity by judging too soon, rushing to make poor decisions or repeatedly earlier mistakes. I do everything I can to encourage creativity, and you truly can’t experiment without trying new things. That means some things work better than others.

 

[GregB]

47 minutes ago, john said:

Mostly I believe I am the harshest judge of my songs. So I don’t fear the judgement of others.

 

Exactly. 

 

I doubt myself and my own songs while I'm creating them. I chuck out anything which doesn't satisfy my own tastes and standards, and keep working on promising stuff until it pleases me on multiple listens.   But is this acceptance only because I've got used to hearing it?

 

Could I have played better/differently?  Should THIS instrument be THAT instrument?  Should that line go up instead of down?  Does that lyric phrase fully nail the intent?  So many questions, Grasshopper.

 

I accept that the possibilities are endless and one has to move on once you get past a self-imposed line in the sand.  Else no track would ever get finished.

 

Greg

[GregB]

On 8/30/2022 at 11:21 AM, buckoff said:

How far are we off 30% 20% less as good as hits

 

But I don't WANT to get close to The Macarena, or Shaddapa Your Face, or a million other 3-chord, 5-note, 10-word, all-chorus "hits'.   Sure, these are "hits" but not necessarily by being GREAT music, instead capturing the quickly-passing social zeitgiest of the day. 

 

Even then, it's still down to personal taste.  Two people can differ hugely in what they consider 'good', and neither is a better judge than the other.

 

 

Edited April 20 by GregB

[Mahesh]

I find this self judgement plague me at times when I am recording. The opportunity to be able to retake and ‘get it better’ puts me on this road to perfection at times. It simply wastes time. I do feel like I function with better focus on stage. There’s something about the adrenaline of being put on a spot paired with the athletic challenge to get the performance in the way you are envisioning in the moment. 

 

But most of the time, if I’m writing a song whether with a guitar or on a DAW, I allow the creative side take more control of the moment. I am not trying to find the perfect line or melody but instead trying to best emulate what I’m ‘feeling’. It involves a bit of spontaneous improvisation and a bit of decision making with the ears. I find this a better approach because it draws less importance to being perfect or getting a certain destination but instead shoves you back into the creative process to make more such decisions. 

 

Anyways, I would say that it is a double edged sword. Self critique in particular needs to balanced and nourishing instead of demotivating and self deprecating. 

[GregB]

10 hours ago, buckoff said:

Call yourself a genuis everyday ,

 

That was probably a joke, but no! 

That's the way of influencers, pop stars, politicians, CEOs etc..

The world would be a better place without the self-declared geniuses acting on their beliefs  

[john]

19 hours ago, GregB said:

Even then, it's still down to personal taste.  Two people can differ hugely in what they consider 'good', and neither is a better judge than the other

I think I am going to disagree Greg

 

It depends entirely on what you measure against. The trouble is people often don’t fix down what they mean by good.

When it comes to personal taste, both are right. There is an audience of exactly one.

 

The issue begins when we try to expand personal taste and use it as a predictor for market success. The two things don’t usually correlate.

 

 In the industry, it depends on your job exactly what some of your metrics are, however for large amounts of comparison there are fixed measurements and people who earn large salaries based upon their ability to understand and predict results using their knowledge of the market place… just like any product in any market.

 

The fact that you either don’t know or recognise the factors or metrics does not remove their relevance. Perspective is everything.

 

Where most of us might be content with feeling out a “good” song, someone somewhere will have datasets that can be used to predict the chances of a hit, the scale of that hit and how long it will be in the charts. 
 

Are they always right? No. Are they usually right? Yes (within a margin of error - see what I did there?)

 

Even informally this is true. Take music production. We informally assess something, comparing it with songs we know are popular. There’s a difference right there. If a generally good musician has knowledge of what is on trend is music currently in the pop charts and we are thinking if our knowledge of the general charting music over the last year, a good producer might have an in-depth knowledge of several related genres over the last 3 months. A great pop producer would have a map of  detailed sound production right up to and including what other top producers are doing right now, music that won’t be released for weeks and months yet. More than that they understand the changing landscape of popular sound and production, they know all recent production critiques and s lot of popular classic techniques. Because they understand the direction of travel, the trends, they are remarkably able to predict what will be popular. They don’t just get that by feel. They understand the concept of units sold and money made. They have a vision of not just what is popular but also what will be popular and that popularity is measured in units, money, downloads, streams, weeks, likes, shares, comments, plays, etc.

 

The mistake is to reduce everything down to comparing an amateur listener’s understanding of the music marketplace, with a musician’s, a top producer’s and saying they are all equal. People working making music every day study that field, formally or informally, just like any course at university or any job.

 

Comparison based on like is something that is valid but limited. For people whose livelihoods depend upon their understanding and ability to project forwards there is a need to be more accurate.

 

Exactly the same issues exist in book writing, painting, clothes design.

 

True it isn’t all data, but data is a highly important factor. Our brains are great at comparing known tangibles and filling in the blanks. Experience is that essential component.

 

To devour all that info and make sense of it takes a massive appetite. Insatiable. Data gives us the finite context to help us to make sense of things that seem immeasurable.

 

Four people will listen to your symptoms, examine you and prescribe your symptoms.
 

One has a hobby with a few years home experience treating friends and family, based on knowledge he looked up on Google and using his home bought medical equipment. By day he works in an auto shop as a mechanic.

 

The second is an highly skilled neuro surgeon. He trained for a decade at a top medical school, he has a decade of on the job experience.

 

The third is an expert diagnostician, who after being in general practice for 10 years, retrained in cardiology followed by 15 years focused on surgical intervention and currently involved in a 5 year study into optimal outcome recovery plans for post-surgical patients following valve replacement.

 

The fourth is a guy you met in the pub, Bob. Bob like fatty foods, drinking to oblivion and has a strong opinion about most things.

 

You tell them all “I have been getting chest pains following exercise and exertion. I feel light headed and break out in a sweat. Lately I have been getting pain and tingling in my left arm.”

 

Who do you turn to?

 

I bet it isn’t Bob. The idea that there is an equivalence doesn’t even enter your head. Sure Bob will have an opinion which may well include, “go see a doctor”. He’s not wrong, but he is far from the ideal guy.

 

So why this idea that there is an equivalence in opinion about music, songwriting, production and music marketing?

 

While there are plenty of amateurs on our boards, not all are. Not even all the amateurs have always been amateurs. Some worked harder at music, for longer, than others. Some have qualifications in music, song writing, music production, music technology and music marketing. Some work or worked in pro studios. Some are pro musicians. Some apprenticed in studios and worked their way up from tea boy to head engineer then production.
 

Some sing into a hairbrush, posing in front of a mirror and attended their last sleep over 8 months ago.

 

By all means ask questions to find out who they are, but don’t assume equivalence. Both are valid opinions for who they are, but who they are and what their story is, is important.

 

That is why critique is not getting an opinion. It is having a discussion. Understand what opinions are based on and let that help you to put comments into context.

[GregB]

1 hour ago, john said:

I think I am going to disagree Greg

 

Most people probably would   ... but I can only talk about my own mindset.

 

>> It depends entirely on what you measure against.

Yes ... I agree with what you said about 'opinions' vs. critique.

 

 

>> The issue begins when we try to expand personal taste and use it as a predictor for market success. The two things don’t usually correlate.

Unfortunately 'market success' is something we all witness but I for one don't understand. So many GREAT tracks by established artists are passed over for commercial alternatives. So many GREAT musicians I've witnessed at small venues who can't make a living from music.

 

>> Someone somewhere will have datasets that can be used to predict the chances of a hit, the scale of that hit and how long it will be in the charts. Are they usually right? Yes

I disagree completely. A few people can catch one wave and then ride it until it peters out, but only a tiny number can predict the next wave. Next to none will identify and catch the third wave.

 

>> A great pop producer would ... understand the concept of units sold and money made. They have a vision of not just what is popular but also what will be popular and [how] that popularity is measured ...

Again, this is pertinent only if trying for commercial success (vs. being 'good').

 

>> The mistake is to reduce ... an amateur listener’s understanding ... with a musician, a top producer ... and saying they are all equal.

Again. Perspective and definition of 'amateur'.  I know virtuoso musicians who have to earn their living by other means. 

 

>> Exactly the same issues exist in book writing, painting, clothes design.

Sure. Quantifying creativity is like capturing smoke in a bottle

 

>>  Four people will listen to your symptoms, examine you and prescribe [differently]

I feel this metaphor was not suited to the discussion we're having.  An illness/injury is largely data driven and you can witness the diagnostic path being taken that reviews (or not) and cross-checks the available data.
 

>> So why this idea that there is an equivalence in opinion about music, songwriting, production and music marketing?

When I started the topic, I didn't say this.   I'm saying that the biggest critic that I listen to ... is ME.  I need to suppress my ego and TRY to be impartial as to the quality of my writing, musicianship, technical abilities.  If I get to release a track, it is because it has met my own strict minimum standards.  Being 'popular' has no bearing on it.  My stated self-doubt is based on whether those standards are valid and high enough, and whether I can truly fairly evaluate something that I've created and in which I've invested time, effort and emotion.

 

>> While there are plenty of amateurs on our boards, not all are. 

The variety of experience is one of the strengths of Songstuff, although the common thread is enthusiasm.  However, one must also be wary of people shouting "I am good".  Some are, some are not.  Some may be good but haven't a body of work to show to allow us to form an opinion.
 

>> That is why critique is not getting an opinion.

No arguing THERE!

 

 

I commend you John for such a detailed post.  It made for interesting reading and I noted the many smiley faces aimed to defuse any potential taking of offence.  You truly don't have to worry.  I am inured to criticism.  I am my sternest critic, closely followed by my wife, sons, extended family and friends, most of whom don't play, sing, or even create music!!  I'm not sure is this supports or disagrees with your many arguments!

 

Greg  

[john]

1 hour ago, GregB said:

Yes ... I agree with what you said about 'opinions' vs. critique.

Yay!

 

1 hour ago, GregB said:

Unfortunately 'market success' is something we all witness but I for one don't understand. So many GREAT tracks by established artists are passed over for commercial alternatives. So many GREAT musicians I've witnessed at small venues who can't make a living from music.

Ability to play and ability to run a business or market a product are all very different skills… though all do require creativity. I know loads of pro level musicians in terms of musical talent. I can count on one hand those who devote any real time to the business side of things… particularly the learning bit. 
 

1 hour ago, GregB said:

I disagree completely. A few people can catch one wave and then ride it until it peters out, but only a tiny number can predict the next wave. Next to none will identify and catch the third wave.

To a degree I agree. For labels, they rely on gathering metrics and finding people who can reliably do the necessary and create hits. You are right the number is few, and that predicting entirely new trends is harder to do, however, good labels are experts at mining seams and it was more this aspect I was thinking of. At several points in history, songwriting or production factories have been created and been pretty successful in terms of commercial success of hit after hit after hit.

 

Labels are also great at identifying and developing new music scenes. Traditionally this often revolved around cities. The Liverpool scene, the Manchester scene etc. It is one of the ways they build new trends. Another go to favourite has been “new sounds” largely built upon new technology. Occasionally there are other types of waves. Transferable celebrity, for example.

 

1 hour ago, GregB said:

Again. Perspective and definition of 'amateur'.  I know virtuoso musicians who have to earn their living by other means. 

Me too. There are many brilliant instrumentalists who cannot write great songs or who are really hard to work with. Yet again, how good you are on a musical instrument has no bearing on business skills. I define amateur as unpaid for that activity. Professional as full time paid for that activity. Anything in between is semi-professional. An amateur can play to a professional standard without being a professional.

 

1 hour ago, GregB said:

Sure. Quantifying creativity is like capturing smoke in a bottle

Yet, business repeatedly tries to do this. Some are pretty successful at it. In truth this is achieved partly by proposed theories and rigorous testing.

 

1 hour ago, GregB said:

I feel this metaphor was not suited to the discussion we're having.  An illness/injury is largely data driven and you can witness the diagnostic path being taken that reviews (or not) and cross-checks the available data.

Labels do exactly this. They have data from loads of releases. They treat audiences like patients. They employ creativity in the business processes and of course it exists within the medical processes. There are of course big differences, but both grapple with trying to manage and categorise trends (amongst other things). The big difference for indies is access to available data sets and a general lack of understanding when it comes to interpretation.

 

1 hour ago, GregB said:

When I started the topic, I didn't say this.   I'm saying that the biggest critic that I listen to ... is ME.  I need to suppress my ego and TRY to be impartial as to the quality of my writing, musicianship, technical abilities.  If I get to release a track, it is because it has met my own strict minimum standards.  Being 'popular' has no bearing on it.  My stated self-doubt is based on whether those standards are valid and high enough, and whether I can truly fairly evaluate something that I've created and in which I've invested time, effort and emotion.

 

True, though in the post I quoted and elsewhere you have made mention of judgement of good being one purely of taste, two people neither better than the other at judging good. Entire music schools, indeed music tuition in general, is almost entirely founded on the fact that one can be better than the other at telling good from nit so good and that those skills can be learned. Music appreciation is also a learned skill. We are conditioned from a young age what to look for. Some would argue it is a fairly inexact science. Others would argue it is more certain than people realise.

 

I get that in terms of individual taste, we all have our own opinion. But in terms of predictably creating something that others will like, it is much more evidence led than people suspect.

 

2 hours ago, GregB said:

The variety of experience is one of the strengths of Songstuff, although the common thread is enthusiasm.  However, one must also be wary of people shouting "I am good".  Some are, some are not.  Some may be good but haven't a body of work to show to allow us to form an opinion.

Very true.

 

2 hours ago, GregB said:

No arguing THERE!

 

Yay!

 

2 hours ago, GregB said:

commend you John for such a detailed post.  It made for interesting reading and I noted the many smiley faces aimed to defuse any potential taking of offence.  You truly don't have to worry.  I am inured to criticism.  I am my sternest critic, closely followed by my wife, sons, extended family and friends, most of whom don't play, sing, or even create music!!  I'm not sure is this supports or disagrees with your many arguments!

Thank you. In truth, you are not the only one who will read it, and emoticons can be useful indicators that save a lot of typing in an already large post! 
 

One thing about music, pretty well everyone has an opinion, and they tend to be more than happy to share it.

[GregB]

Thanks for all the insights Dad  John.  😆

[john]

For a process to work for you it has to be realistic. If it needs constant input from Tony, it isn’t the right process.

 

It has to be something you can and will maintain. So, for example, a process, set of tasks that provides it’s own motivation. That could be where the results themselves provide enough motivation, helped by the tasks fitting with your likes well enough that they require low levels of motivation for you to actually carry out the task. 
 

Where there are tasks that you don’t like you can either adapt the tasks or replace the tasks, outsource the tasks or not do the tasks and accept the hit.

 

One really common issue, for example, is where carrying out certain dedicated tasks may be important but it is hard finding time to do them. Social media activities are good examples. Creating dedicated content is time consuming. Finding ideas for posts can quickly run dry. If you know what your “content well” is, filling the content becomes pretty easy. For most musicians that could be time recording or performing, especially if they talk about making music too. They can hook up a camera to film themselves making music, performing etc. They do that to make their music anyway. If they can find suitable content for social media as an incidental output of writing and recording and chatting to other musicians and producers, then creating social media content takes very little extra time. If they can outsource that to someone who is responsible for sifting the content looking for suitable posts, it doesn’t necessarily need to be an inconvenience to the artist. It beats posting about their lunch that day.

 

The point is, the business side doesn’t need to be unpleasant. It is, after all, your business. No one else’s. Do things your way, just as long as you cater for the fundamentals.

[john]

More to the original point, having a way of working that takes into account your self-doubt and works with it, might be worthwhile.

 

@GregB, you must have found a way to reconcile and work with self-doubt that works for you. It’s a shame you have to feel self doubt in the first place, but hey. It’s healthy to question our ideas and how we realise them. I imagine doubt comes from confidence in our decision, particularly in the “is it finished?”. I don’t really ask “is it good enough”.

[GregB]

16 hours ago, john said:

@GregB, you must have found a way to reconcile and work with self-doubt that works for you

 

Correctamundo.  I'm sure it stems from the unsupportive and rabid religious environments at home and school. Constant criticism and nothing I did was ever good enough.  While completely aware of the effects that must have had on my developing mind, those seams run deep and require constant self-nurturing. 

 

I don't think self-criticism is a BAD thing as it has lead to better songs/productions.  But it IS very wearing.  The single due out in the next few days had 50+ revisions AFTER the 'final' mix!!

 

It's been an eye-opener that no-one else here shares this particular struggle ... I thought we were all fellow anguished artistic types suffering in despair in our darkened garrets  

[john]

1 minute ago, VoiceEx said:

 

Yeah I suppose that would work, a full 'persona non grata' makeover! 🤣 Though you forgot about stirring up the Twitter police and soft peddling reaction videos while using every buzz word known to man 😅

 

In regards to the topic though, when it comes to music, its all about practice and slowly mastering the craft. Once a person reaches the point where they have a developed a working system, than their doubt's will overtime fade out of the equation. They will have the knowledge and experience to keep going at it, and they will keep on improving. I mean, sure, the quality of their product and sales may be up for debate. No doubt. Though as far as how they feel on the inside goes, if they reach that point of self proficiency, than id like to believe that they will feel pretty good about their accomplishments. I mean, if somebody starts making music strictly "for the money & hoes", than they might as well run for president while their at it, because that's how big that sort of leap of faith actually is. There's just no place for doubts.

There are doubts for different reasons. Quite a few, I found, such as “How does this compare to…” and “Is it good enough…” are all about being in competition with other artists and producers. It’s true that we might all be in competition on some level, but for me that is not really my personal battle. If anything, firstly I compete against myself. Only then do I compare myself to others, and it really isn’t a competitive feeling I get. I am the only one doing “me”.

[Glammerocity]

On 8/31/2022 at 3:17 AM, john said:

The issue begins when we try to expand personal taste and use it as a predictor for market success. The two things don’t usually correlate.

Correct. A good guide to the music business is that nobody knows anything. Partially related, Philip Tetlock asked 300 experts in various political fields for predictions. He analysed over 80,000 of their predictions - which areas would have war, which regions would have economic prosperity, etc. They did not do well. The Nobel-winning statistician, Daniel Kahneman, Tetlock's old professor, wrote that they did "worse than dart-throwing monkeys," which would at least have hit close to an average. Kahneman suggested that possibly the problem was their expertise caused them to make more confident predictions than they should've. Trust a surgeon to remove your appendix but don't bet your house on his predictions for the NHS in 20 years. Same goes for A&R people - let them take care of promotion and CD manufacture but don't let them in the studio. For every hit there are dozens of misses you didn't hear about. Throw enough mud at the wall and sooner or later it'll look like you have the magic touch.

 

A&R people will tell you they're looking for the next big thing, when in actual fact they spend most of their time looking at copies of the last big thing. For every U2 there's a The Alarm; for every Oasis there's a Starsailor. This is why we have bandwagons.

 

 

On 8/31/2022 at 3:17 AM, john said:

Where most of us might be content with feeling out a “good” song, someone somewhere will have datasets that can be used to predict the chances of a hit, the scale of that hit and how long it will be in the charts. 
 

Are they always right? No. Are they usually right? Yes (within a margin of error - see what I did there?)

 

Even informally this is true. Take music production. We informally assess something, comparing it with songs we know are popular. There’s a difference right there. If a generally good musician has knowledge of what is on trend is music currently in the pop charts and we are thinking if our knowledge of the general charting music over the last year, a good producer might have an in-depth knowledge of several related genres over the last 3 months. A great pop producer would have a map of  detailed sound production right up to and including what other top producers are doing right now, music that won’t be released for weeks and months yet. More than that they understand the changing landscape of popular sound and production, they know all recent production critiques and s lot of popular classic techniques. Because they understand the direction of travel, the trends, they are remarkably able to predict what will be popular. They don’t just get that by feel. They understand the concept of units sold and money made. They have a vision of not just what is popular but also what will be popular and that popularity is measured in units, money, downloads, streams, weeks, likes, shares, comments, plays, etc.

While producers know the current trends and sounds being used, this is no guarantee. I've seen a number of people on YouTube with videos on "how to write a kpop hit" but they haven't actually done it. They have the sounds and they have the contacts but none of their songs have been picked up. It's true that the sounds in a few months are being made now and if you're using the sounds of now, you'll be out of date by the time your song ever comes to market. The producers who caused the current trend did so to please themselves, not because they were following a trend. They had a hit and presto, bandwagon.

 

I recall an interview with The Cult's guitarist, Billy Duffy. He was asked, "What's the best-kept secret in the music business?" He replied, "That it's still songs that matter." The lesson: if you haven't got the song, no sound or must-have sample is going to help you and you're going to end up making how-to videos on YouTube.

 

On 8/31/2022 at 3:17 AM, john said:

Four people will listen to your symptoms, examine you and prescribe your symptoms.
 

One has a hobby with a few years home experience treating friends and family, based on knowledge he looked up on Google and using his home bought medical equipment. By day he works in an auto shop as a mechanic.

 

The second is an highly skilled neuro surgeon. He trained for a decade at a top medical school, he has a decade of on the job experience.

 

The third is an expert diagnostician, who after being in general practice for 10 years, retrained in cardiology followed by 15 years focused on surgical intervention and currently involved in a 5 year study into optimal outcome recovery plans for post-surgical patients following valve replacement.

 

The fourth is a guy you met in the pub, Bob. Bob like fatty foods, drinking to oblivion and has a strong opinion about most things.

 

You tell them all “I have been getting chest pains following exercise and exertion. I feel light headed and break out in a sweat. Lately I have been getting pain and tingling in my left arm.”

 

Who do you turn to?

 

I bet it isn’t Bob. The idea that there is an equivalence doesn’t even enter your head. Sure Bob will have an opinion which may well include, “go see a doctor”. He’s not wrong, but he is far from the ideal guy.

 

So why this idea that there is an equivalence in opinion about music, songwriting, production and music marketing?

I think you've made a false equivalence in comparing a medical situation requiring specific medical knowledge with creative pursuits. A surgeon will do an operation the same way every time. The patient will survive, barring an occasional one which fails to come out of the anaesthesia. Conversely, top producers have more fails than hits. They have periods on-trend, just like sounds - remember Daniel Lanois? Produced hits for Peter Gabriel, U2 and Bob Dylan. Also credited with a whole load of forgettables. A&R people will follow the same method which got them a hit but ignore the times it got them misses. If they were surgeons you'd probably die.

[Tatlock Holmes]

On 8/31/2022 at 3:17 AM, john said:

The trouble is people often don’t fix down what they mean by good.

Well there are the obvious things - though even here a surprising number of people don't seem to either be aware them of or perhaps just don't value them; e.g. using good English. Sloppy English sounds terrible - I don't mean slang or idioms - I mean phrasing that sounds unnatural whether spoken or sung, phrases shoehorned to fit a particular line length or when the emphasis on the syllables falls in the wrong place. Poems dressed up as songs virtually never work either. Avoiding overused clichés and other people's lines should be a given too but isn't - when did you last complain about something giving you the blues in a normal conversation for example?

 

This kind of thing should be obvious, and I wonder sometimes if this is as a result of the focus of the writer being so much on writing what they think people want to hear that what good means simply doesn't enter into the process - and therein lies the trap.

 

Songwriters like to see themselves as providing the product, but in reality are usually the people being sold the product even though they often don't realise it.

 

The internet is awash with a tsunami of mediocre professionally recorded demos of unexceptional songs that serve no purpose; i.e. bring little creative reward for the writer who ends up out of pocket and writing songs they don't really believe in for a market that is already saturated and therefore isn't interested in hearing something not quite as good as what it already has at its disposal in abundance.

 

I don't see how this loop can improve songwriting quality. There's nothing wrong with trying to write commercial songs at all, but if you don't really know what makes a song commercial then you're on a bit of a hiding to nothing. It's a bit like the conspiracy theorists who advocate doing their own research but are unaware that they don't have the skill set to carry out said research.

 

I think if people could get out of a commercial mindset that they're not experienced enough or trained in to navigate effectively then we might have more interesting, unique and creative songs - songs that can legitimately be called good on their own merit.

Edited September 28, 2022 by Chris W

[GregB]

3 hours ago, daydreamdays said:

In ways, I think it's kind of reflective of cultural criticism in general.  You don't quite get certain things unless you actually participate in the creation of any given cultural medium, but can always cultivate a set of interests as an audience member without, perhaps, realizing as to just what effort any given form of art takes.  The arbiters of literary cannon, for instance, I think, are kind of a hegemony which plays into hipster snobbery.  Sure, a master's degree and being reading quite a lot makes you more of an expert, if you will, on what constitutes "good" literature, but, as to whether it gives an expertise beyond that of writers themselves is anyone's guess.  The audience decides if a work is good, no? 

 

Hi "Day".   Nicely written ... i.e. a pleasure to read (without necessarily agreeing with ALL the content).

The same arguments can also be applied to these Forum pages.  If I kick off a Topic discussion, or respond, I can only express my views and/or paraphrase other people's.

 

One gut-level view that I'll take to the grave ... not long to go now ... concerns that last sentence of yours: 

 

     >>>  The audience decides if a work is good, no? 

 

No?  ... NO!!

 

A generalised audience only determines whether or not a work is POPULAR.

 

Greg

- an opinionated Baby Boomer  

[john]

6 hours ago, GregB said:

 

Hi "Day".   Nicely written ... i.e. a pleasure to read (without necessarily agreeing with ALL the content).

The same arguments can also be applied to these Forum pages.  If I kick off a Topic discussion, or respond, I can only express my views and/or paraphrase other people's.

 

One gut-level view that I'll take to the grave ... not long to go now ... concerns that last sentence of yours: 

 

     >>>  The audience decides if a work is good, no? 

 

No?  ... NO!!

 

A generalised audience only determines whether or not a work is POPULAR.

 

Greg

- an opinionated Baby Boomer  

 

In a world where the degree of “good” is often measured by popularity it could be thought that we have a problem of false equivalence. A bit like success being measured by the amount of money made. There are cases that the metric fits, but they are far from the only measure of good or success. 
 

There are many, many metrics we can apply to songs. The importance of each metric to us as individuals is determined by the importance of the aspect being measured. Words like “good” can be applied to any of those aspects. “Good” overall is personal too, as the addition of the factors important to us.

 

 

[MikeRobinson]

My late father-in-law, who actually managed to get writer's credit on a few songs he wrote with Johnny Cash – a few of them thankfully very important – once very candidly told me that, at the time, the game was "write a song, throw it against the wall, and [don't wait to ...] see if it stuck." 😀

 

Sometimes your name wound up on the copyright application like it was supposed to. Sometimes, it didn't.

 

You simply couldn't afford to wait – record labels contracted for you to turn out "albums" as quickly as possible, so that's precisely what you did.  At least ten songs apiece.  Required.  Two or more albums a year.  Required.  You didn't have time to wonder whether any particular song would be "a commercial success," and anyway it could take several years to find out if it was.  So, you were basically just as surprised as everybody else was when your song "hit."  (There's a reason why they call them, "hits!")

 

The "catalog" of any established artist might contain hundreds or even thousands of songs, while perhaps only a dozen of them "pay for the mansion."  Dolly Parton's catalog, for example, contains more than 5,000 entries.  How many of them have you ever heard of?

Edited December 1, 2022 by MikeRobinson