Synchronizing "live" and programmed parts (FX, too)

[Donna]

Hey all, I've a number of is-shoes (issues) below and am looking for the most effective and labor saving methods.

So I finally did a scratch of a couple sections last night just to see if I can get a workable groove with a bigger-parts tune. The keyboard I have stores enough to lay down several lines (eg chords, bass, strings) for a full song.

1) I "could" lay down the drums, then record the keyboard stuff by pressing the "start song" button on the keyboard EXACTLY at the right time. This is what I did last eve - it wouldn't be impossible to hone my button pressing chops to the exact millisecond...or think you I should bite the bullet and lay down the programmed stuff first (reprehensible in my drummer philosophy, but willing to change). Also: what's the best way y'all deal with actual space in your programmed parts, when there is no discernable rythym, or in the case of pausing for actul beats, there is NO sound at all?

2) The midiverb is up and running, woo-hoo! In mixing the snippet above, I found myself wondering how others deal with programming effects during mixdown. The unit is right next to the mixing board...but if I want chorus in one section and flange in other, is manually pressing different buttons during mixdown the way to go and just hope I can catch up with all the panning and stuff going on? Is mine a specific recording enviornment where recording WITH effects is the way to go?

3) The effects unit itself, exploring its options. In the past I just cranked everything til I "heard" the amt of effect desired. But that just means every mix sounds the same and I'd such a good result doing "Last Train" in noting WHAT k/htz and stuff is. Want to do the same re: effects. On my portastudio there are pans and eq tiers for the effects as well! So it's like quilting, endless options. Any specific idea on how to approach FINDING OUT what my unit can do?

4) Lastly...and I'm glad Lazz is on vacation or whatever, any ideas on how to get a click track (laying down drums) for me? It really would help.

Again, mine is an analog 4-track set up, no pc stuff per se.

Mucho gratsios!

PS: any ideas why going direct from my keyboard to the 4-track is yielding no signal? It's not my cord, either.

Edited February 23, 2006 by Donna

[john]

Hey Donna

1) I "could" lay down the drums, then record the keyboard stuff by pressing the "start song" button on the keyboard EXACTLY at the right time. This is what I did last eve - it wouldn't be impossible to hone my button pressing chops to the exact millisecond...or think you I should bite the bullet and lay down the programmed stuff first (reprehensible in my drummer philosophy, but willing to change). Also: what's the best way y'all deal with actual space in your programmed parts, when there is no discernable rythym, or in the case of pausing for actul beats, there is NO sound at all?

If your analogue recorder doesn't have Midi Time Code capability you can't sync (there are ways but it means buying gear). The easiest way is to record the midi parts in your keyboards sequencer. Include count in and silent sections. On playback you should be able to get a visual metronome, or an audio one you can send out a different audio output (for example to your headphones only, not the main output) That done, you can press play on your keyboard, and manually sync by using the metronome as a cue, and then play against the music like we did in ye olde days. Not brilliant, but it will work.

2) The midiverb is up and running, woo-hoo! In mixing the snippet above, I found myself wondering how others deal with programming effects during mixdown. The unit is right next to the mixing board...but if I want chorus in one section and flange in other, is manually pressing different buttons during mixdown the way to go and just hope I can catch up with all the panning and stuff going on? Is mine a specific recording enviornment where recording WITH effects is the way to go?

You can set up the midiverb to respond to control messages on specific midi channels. This means your keyboard has to have the ability to allow you to add control change messages (specifically a patch change message as a minimum) in your song sequence, on a midi channel that corresponds to the channel you assigned for control messages in your midiverb, and your keyboard must have a midi output port. The default tends to be midi channel 1. Then when you press play at the appropriate point in the song a message will be sent from your keyboard to the midiverb saying "change patch".

I should say sequencing on a PC is normally a lot easier than keyboard sequencers, and a lot more flexible. . The time is fast approaching when you are going to have to confront this little bug bear...

3) The effects unit itself, exploring its options. In the past I just cranked everything til I "heard" the amt of effect desired. But that just means every mix sounds the same and I'd such a good result doing "Last Train" in noting WHAT k/htz and stuff is. Want to do the same re: effects. On my portastudio there are pans and eq tiers for the effects as well! So it's like quilting, endless options. Any specific idea on how to approach FINDING OUT what my unit can do?

Trial and error. Also you might be able to get downloadable patch presets on the web.

4) Lastly...and I'm glad Lazz is on vacation or whatever, any ideas on how to get a click track (laying down drums) for me? It really would help.

What's Lazz got do do with anything technical? I've got this covered above.

PS: any ideas why going direct from my keyboard to the 4-track is yielding no signal? It's not my cord, either.

Not last then. Are the inputs on your mixer set to "line in"? Have you checked the output from the keyboard in any other way?

Cheers

John

[Donna]

John, thanks for your detailed responses.

I did get the direct signal...don't know what I did differently today.

Er, is there a beginner's thread re: midi so that I will be able to make sense of your replies? I will refer back to them. But you've already given me another way for synching + click.

So it looks like for guitar I'd have to program the effects manually...dunno how that would work if the patch thing is going on w/ keys. The acoustic sounds so nice with some chorus on it.

Tomorrow I get time off and "told" myself I'd best be happy if I even get levels.

The 4 track (I don't think) has the midi time capability, but I'll look.

Edited February 23, 2006 by Donna

[john]

Hey Donna

There are a couple of useful articles on the basics here:

http://midi.songstuff.com/articles.php

There are also some basic definitions in the glossary.

I can spli this topic into a midi beginners thread. I'll look and see if there is something already.

Why do the guitar effects have to be done manually? As long as your programme the changes before your record the guitar you're sorted.

Cheers

John

[hariossa]

Some years ago I used to work with an Atari 1040ST, a Roland GR50 guitar synth and an Ensoniq mirage sampler module plus a Digitech Legend II as guitar FX, I sequenced all the FX changes using cubase in the atari... right now you can buy that computer for almost no money (software included), it has a built in MIDI interface so you just need a midi cable to run everything...

[Donna]

John and Hari-

Cool! Thank you!

(yeah I see now how that would work w/ effects patch/guitar).

[Prometheus]

4) Lastly...and I'm glad Lazz is on vacation or whatever, any ideas on how to get a click track (laying down drums) for me? It really would help.

Once you're in the blind with your PC setup, it should be a simple matter to get the Kristal program to provide a click track for you, which you can listen to over a set of cans while you're tracking...

Failing that, any musical instrument store should be able to sell you a metronome pretty cheap...