MonoStone

Hmmm this isn't a very good forum fight... ...I'll wait for a better opportunity. I do happen to agree that melody trumps lyric...damnit. Tom, I did understand your point. I just didn't agree. Still don't

"Melody trumps lyric" I disagree... purely because I enjoy these forum arguments

I don't think that Police song was a hit purely because of a misunderstanding.... but even if that was a factor... why would that prevent it from qualifying as a 'uh'? Maybe people thinking it was a kind of love song helped it, but in the end all that matters (in terms of being a hit) is the listeners loving the song. And actually the true meaning of the song being effectively hidden like a dark undertone, rather than an in-your-face literal meaning, probably added something special.... and if so... why would that go against it? I mean I think an Uh can even be made accidentally, I don't think it matters... a brilliant song is a brilliant song, even if the songwriter got there by some fluke or because the listeners heard something which wasn't intended. Also, a song's intended meaning isn't often likely to be a deciding factor and certainly not the only factor in it being a hit or an Uh... its perceived meaning is likely going to be more of a factor, but even that isn't often going to be the major factor, and probably never the only factor.

Gry, Uh! Or UH = Undeniable Hit. See the 'songwriting for a living ' thread for reference. PS before that thread nobody knew what an 'Uh!' meant.

I'll kick it off...

CLASSIC!

'Pop' - What is it?

Just "uh" ... but you have to say it like James Brown.... AN 'uh!'

Come on... can't we make the *UHbreviation catch on? *UHcronym didn't sound quite as good

Yep, there's definitely some demand for music in video games.

Hey I didn't say I was doing one!

I own a company making art for video games... I've asked some of my clients if they need music.... some do.... it's no gold mine though, and 'songs' are not in demand. Maybe I should investigate deeper....

You know... I almost said at the time... let's start a challenge. The only reason I didn't write that was because I then realised I'd likely make a fool of myself in my own attempt. Right now I wouldn't know where to begin. I have been listening to my daughter's new fangled boom boom pop music on the gramophone... it's interesting to listen after this thread... but I still haven't got my head around what exactly makes the songs and productions sound as current as they do. I'm looking forward to yours!

Interesting points Mahesh, I don't know what Skylark or The S think, but personally I don't quite see things this way... well, I do a bit, sometimes, but overall I don't... Or do I? I'm not sure yet.... I mean, what is an undeniable hit? (Skylark came up with that term, so best if he tells us ). Let's look one example - 'Mad World' by Tears For Fears... a big UK hit in the 80s. Performed and produced in a very 80s way, synths, dancey etc etc. Covered in 2001 by Gary Jules, who performed it as a slower ballad with just vocal and a piano. Again it was a huge UK hit. And the vast majority of people buying it thought Mr Jules had written it, they didn't remember the 80s (I actually had to correct someone on Soundcloud recently who'd covered it, because he'd credited Jules as the original writer). I reckon that makes it an undeniable hit. The core song must just be THAT good. But also, perhaps sometimes an Undeniable Hit (Skylark! Couldn't you have come up with something with fewer letters in it, I'm sick of typing it! And now I'm sick of typing about being sick of typing it).... perhaps sometimes an Undeniable Hit.... has to take into account current trends. Only sometimes. I mean if you get the timing just right with a trend then that could make a song an Unden... U.H. ... but then again maybe that's not quite what Skylark meant, I don't know.... Personaly I like to think of a UH as a truly great song which has the potential to be a hit almost regardless of trends. It's also true that if you give One Direction a good song and produce it well then you've got a UH because their fans are loyal and many... but again, I don't see that as a true UH... that's just a good song made into a hit by a hit artist. UH...Uh? Dek

Some great posts here.... I'm soaking it all up even though I'm not (or wasn't) planning to write songs for the purpose of pitching to other artists (I'm tempted now, if only to get a real understanding of how tough it is). I'm not saying I've not thought about pitching songs I've written by the way, just that I've never tried to write one with that goal in mind when writing it....and the two things are quite different aren't they? Are they? But one thing standing out to me, one thing that really excites me.... is the idea of the 'undeniable hit' that Skylark spoke of. I just love that holy grail kind of idea. I get the point that it's not possible to bank on that.... and I'd starve if I banked on it... but I've always loved that idea of a song so good it can't be missed. Whether you're writing as a recording artist OR for one, you have to feel good in your work as long as you're shooting for the moon. I can see why it would get anyone down if forced to compromise on that.... Not sure where I'm going with this point...maybe I'll return to it... Oh and by the way all of you are wrong, I'm right, and I could have the lot of you with one hand behind my back!

I'm enjoying this topic...even with the punch-ups Regarding writing for other artists - I don't know what it takes, never done it, but it makes sense that presenting something to the best standard you can is the best plan, and presenting it in a current style (current, or cutting edge in whichever genre you're writing for...) must be a good idea. I know (or I'm told by a mate in 'the biznis') there's often a deliberate demand for 'something that sounds like xxxx' and established songwriters/producers receive briefs something like that, but I also think that songwriters writing pop will be following trends to some extent without needing to think about it and will just lean that way anyway. And maybe it's the end production that will tend to copycat more than the song sometimes. Maybe. Kind of related - My closest friend has been writing library/production music for a few years, and that's an option too.... which obviously needs top notch production. And he spends his own money up-front on session guys to make it the best quality he can, and he's making from it. That's another way to make music for a living....but also not easy to get into and requires a lot of talent, and to be versatile. And that's definitely a producer role as much as a writer, and I think of that more as compositions than 'songs' on the whole since there's a lot of instrumental... but I'm throwing it into the mix here since it's still making music for a living and still composing music for a living. He does it all from home, not in a big studio (although he will rent or borrow one for a day to record a musician if needed, that generally still means something very basic), all mixed at home on a computer just as I do... and if you happen to be VERY talented on mulitple intruments or making music mainly electronic then I guess you don't need the session guys. It's all possible. Not easy.

It's great to read a few positives... bound to be some downsides but it beats the *doooooooooooooooom No doubt you have to have skills.... And specifically regarding writing for other artists - those who know, correct me if I'm wrong but I'm guessing you have to still put a lot of heart n soul into the writing, at the very least you have to love your craft... And no doubt it's a rocky road unless/until you get a big break, which is true for just about any creative profession.... ... but still it's good to hear those positives so that anyone who wants to try doesn't think it's utterly pointless. And just to quickly answer some replies about my point to Larry about not having to give up the day job - My point was that you either need to be extremely confident, crazy or in some way supported in order to just ditch the day job and sit writing songs all day from day one... It's sensible in any new venture to test the water, start small, work the long hours after work, and then make the transition if it looks like you have what it takes and it's going to pay. I'm not sure why anyone would think I meant work two jobs forever.... *read in Scottish accent

I do feel kinda responsible .... Group hug? Love and peace man

Well... I've never done it, but people do... So it must be possible to make a living from songwriting. Not easy I'm sure. But if you're into it it's worth a try.... You don't need to give up a day job to try. But you might have to write songs all night. We all write music for our own pleasure.... Maybe I'm wrong but I imagine successful writers get just as much pleasure from writing...plus the added pleasure of commercial success. Maybe the questions are.... Can you enjoy writing in a style that might not usually be your cup of tea?....or... Maybe you don't have to? Isn't a great song just a great song? I mean can't any really great song just be a melody over a simple piano? And then IF you need to present it with a current sounding arrangement (do you need to?) isn't that a fun challenge?

Who is "you" in those questions? 'My' original point was (thinking out loud to Larry) that I didn't know if I could write a commercial song. I'm not sure I'm capable. Larry's original point (that I was replying to) was that he'd like to try. ...then we got onto a view from some that songwriters don't make any money anyway....

You're not called Sage for nothin....

What we need here...is some balance. It can't all be doooooooooooom... can it? I mean few things worthwhile are easy, but... Success stories from people here?

What's the 'KISS method'? (Why do I feel like I've just asked a really stupid question? )

This started as chatter on a song thread by Larry.... So rather than keep hijacking Larry's thread.... just moving it here - That's where we got to...if anyone is interested to continue the general chatter about writing songs for a living, and maybe especially for other artists.

I don't think you need an idea to write lyrics... you don't need a conscious reason... Try this... If you have the chord progression, record it, give it plenty of bars so you have time to experiment. Now play it back in headphones and record your voice, and rather than thinking what you want to write, just see how the music makes you feel and start singing STUFF... make sounds, nonsense words...go with the flow. It should come out as nonsense (avoid just jamming typical 'baby baby...love you... etc etc ... Go deep, just make sounds. Put the flow first. Ok... now play it back, and write down what you think you might have been saying. e.g. if you sung "Wuderwul" maybe that's "Wonderful" or..maybe it's "What do I/we/you"... just write down what seems to suit best, don't overthink it. Try to get just a few lines that way.... Read it back, and see what it might be about... again don't think too much, just get the general feel...and then start filling it out. i.e. you should be getting a theme about now, so you can fill in the gaps. Try to keep to the same syllables as the nonsense version. Keep building and refining... In the end you'll hopefully have something meaningful to you. Maybe it won't work for everyone...but it can work. ---------- Or... Try what Bowie learned from the beat poets... get several pages of words from books, newspapers, anywhere... and cut them up randomly (but in straight rectangles so you get 1 full word or maybe 2 or 3 words per cut. Vary it.) Actually a lot easier these days, just cut and paste on computer. Put all your random words in a pile... and then begin putting them back together. Arrange them so that they tell part of a story or begin to say something meaningful to you...again fill in the gaps... think what the words are telling you, and correct them. You might not have many of the originals left when you're done, or you might have all of them. Also refine it to fit the phrasing/flow you need. In the end you're still writing, still expressing yourself...it's coming from deeper within you and the restriction of the cuttings forces you to say things in a different way and talk about things you might not usually. ------------ So if you can't think what you want to say... try one of those methods. They do work. Plenty of very respected songwriters have used the cut-up method (Bowie, Cobain, Thom Yorke, to name a few...) ... Coming up with the music and melody is the harder part... Dek