songbird52

Hi Mike, I was a software developer for a long time also, before I retired. I see similarities between the two kinds of writing. Both are sort of like doing puzzles, and both provide that sense of accomplishment when you finally get the puzzle done. But you are pointing out the difference -- with software the program has to run and perform the intended function, or it's worthless. And with songs, we don't have that definite criteria. We can't say my song is no good, it doesn't run, or it doesn't perform the intended task. Right, I agree. However, I do think I can determine when there are aesthetic bugs. It's harder than with software, because it's all based on intuitive judgements, rather than logic. But I can't prove this, and can barely understand it myself. I just think, as I have been spending most of my time on songwriting, that I am getting some sense of right vs wrong. And my quality control has been improving, I think, I hope. Can't really be sure with this stuff that is beyond logic.

It's true that we need to get opinions from others. Very hard to be objective about our own work, because we so much want to like songs we put a lot of effort into. But I do think the approach I described here has been helping me. I was being obsessive about writing songs for a while, trying to get as many done as possible. I was not as concerned as I should have been about quality. Then I got away from songwriting for a couple of weeks because I had to go somewhere. I brought a guitar and I practiced my songs every day, but being away from my normal environment it was too hard to write new songs. When I got back, I noticed that some of the songs I had been working on before I left really sucked. And that made me realize I needed better quality control. So now I have been going back and re--writing songs I had thought were done. And spending more time on new songs. I don't let anyone hear them until I feel they are ok.

I was talking about how to assess our own songs, before anyone else hears them. That has to be the first step.

I have no way to know what you mean by "speaks directly." That has to be something you feel personally, not something objective. I was trying to explain a way of getting around the fact that our judgements of songs, especially the ones we wrote ourselves, can't be objective. And I certainly would never ask for a critique outside the designated areas!

That is true. However, I think I meant something different by bugs. I don't actually mean mistakes. Mostly I mean areas of melody that I don't like to sing. And the more times I sing them, the more I dislike them. If I sing a song every day and don't get tired of it, I think that means I like it, and that from my perspective it's a good song. This is a way to hopefully get around the natural bias we have that makes us like our own songs. We want the songs we write to be good songs, so it's hard to be objective. This helps me to be more objective. I have revised some of my songs that I didn't like to the point where I do like them, and I do like to sing them. That doesn't mean other people will like them, of course, because people don't all like the same things. However, if I like a song I know that SOME people will like it, since my taste in music is not unique.

Obviously, we can't know, because good or not depends on a person's musical preferences. However, I think I figured out a way to know if a song is good, or not, for me. I have been using this method on the songs I write. If nothing else, I need to know if I like a song I wrote myself. Because if I don't like my own song, how can I expect anyone else to like it? I try to practice most of my songs every day, if possible. I noticed there were some I did not like to sing and play. I didn't know why, didn't think about it too much. But then I started to think about it. Why do I dislike, or even hate, a particular song? And I noticed that the songs I don't like had "bugs." Sometimes wording, but more often melody. Even though I wrote the song myself, I had written sections of melody (or words) that do not feel right to me. It was because I was just trying to get the song finished quickly. So I marked the songs on my list that have bugs (I used to be a software developer, so to me errors are bugs). And every time I practice one of those songs, I try to fix one or more of the bugs. I only spend very little time on this for each song, because it can very quickly lead to frustration and writer's block. As a result of doing this every day, some of my songs have improved, even to the point where I like them and don't hate singing them. I am trying to get all my songs to that point. And I also started doing the same thing with my in progress songs. Just spend a little time every day trying to iron out the bugs. As a result, I have finished some more songs that I actually like. Of course there are songs that don't need any revising. Some do, and some don't. You have to be in the right state of mind while writing a song, and sometimes with luck you are in that state long enough to get a whole song written. But very often, that state comes and goes and doesn't last through the writing of a whole song. In that case, I am using this method, which kind of relates back to my coding days.

Many songs are written, many are recorded, many are sold. But only certain ones are loved and remembered over the decades. Do these greatly popular songs have something in common? I really am not sure, but I have a couple guesses. For one thing, I think how the song is performed matters a lot. For example, She Loves You by the Beatles. They were great, dynamic, performers. My other guess is that the most remembered, most popular, songs, have mostly been relatively simple. She Loves You, again, is an example. Paul Simon, and Bob Dylan, had some long songs. But even though they were long, they were still musically simple. How important are lyrics in making a song loved and remembered? Lyrics do matter, but probably not as much as the music and the performance. There are Bob Dylan songs, and Paul Simon songs, with lyrics that no one really can understand. For example, Sounds of Silence. I don't know what it means. What about the message of a song? I don't think that matters too much. I personally don't like songs that have a definite message, especially if it's an advicey message. Usually the messages of the most loved songs are something emotional and universal, like heartbreak. Does it help if a song is poetic, and skillfully written? Sometimes yes, but it doesn't have to be. She Loves You is not great poetry. However, there definitely are songs that are loved and remembered that are poetic, for example by Leonard Cohen. So I don't know if there is any way to figure out what makes a great song. Maybe it's easier to figure out what makes a bad song.

I need a guitar in order to write songs. I spent 10 years learning to play banjo, and stopped playing guitar during that time. I didn't write as many songs then as I normally would. Then last winter I started playing guitar again, and now I write songs all the time. I also play ukulele, but I can't write songs while playing that. Don't know why. It has to be guitar.

Whenever I spend the whole day alone, I probably write at least part of a song. I spend a lot of time practicing singing and playing the songs I have already written, and during that time I often get ideas for new ones. And I also go back to old songs and re-write them, or finish them if they were never finished. Spending time alone is really the main thing, for me. I never try to write songs, because I can't do it by trying. The ideas have to just come to me. I usually hear at least part of the song. Because I am retired, or semi-retired, I get to be home alone a lot. That is the key to writing songs, for me. It probably also helps to be sad. I lost a very close friend recently and that inspired a lot of sad songs. It also helps to have chances to perform the songs I write, so I play at a lot of open mics. Especially songwriter open mics. I don't want to repeat the same songs, so I feel motivated to keep writing new ones for the next open mic. Not that I "try" to write them, but I am open to them. Getting approval for my songs also seems to be a motivator. But for most of my life, I never performed, so I never got any approval, and I wrote them anyway. But I write a lot more songs now than I used to. Partly because of having more time, and partly because I like to perform and I love it when someone appreciates a song I wrote.

I usually start with the name.

I try to keep all my songs somewhere between 3 and 4 minutes. If it's less than 3 minutes, I add more instrumental breaks. My first reaction to the idea of 2 minute songs is that it's too short. But maybe that's just because I'm in the habit of 3 to 4 minutes. I think if a song is only 2 minutes there can't be enough to it, and it needs something more. Not necessarily more words. If it's over 4 minutes, then I think it's too long and listeners might lose patience. Unless it's a fascinating story song, then maybe longer is ok. There are guys I've heard at open mics with songs that seem to go on forever and ever and ever. That is annoying. But 2 minutes, it seems to me, is barely enough time to get the listener's attention. So I would stretch it out with interesting instrumental breaks.

Oh well. I have been writing songs for 50 years (I'm 66 now). I have hundreds, and about 50 that I think are good enough to perform right now. There are some people who love some of my songs, but lots of others who ignore me. So, I guess, if I were really good I would not be ignored so much.

I know what you mean! Sometimes I hope hardly anyone shows up, and sometimes I hope they all talk loudly and ignore me! Then I can just enjoy playing and singing and not worry about making mistakes. It can be so wonderful ,though, when you see they are listening. You can tell if they are just being polite, or if they are really into the music. At those times, it is possible to suddenly get self-conscious and think "Oh no, what if I make a mistake!" My strategy is to practice my songs A LOT, so it becomes completely automatic. Then mistakes are less likely, even when nervous. But when they don't listen, I always get worried that I did something wrong. Even though, as you said, it might not reflect on the quality. Sometimes people will only listen when their friends are playing. And there are people who just don't care about politeness. Even if I listened during their songs, they talk all through mine. I try not to let it bother me too much.

Thanks. It is hard to tell the reason I don't get listened to at the place I was last night. I have been there a number of times, with the same result. I am confident, never nervous. I also play at a songwriter's open mic, where I played earlier this week. They usually try to be polite there and listen. It's a coffee shop, not a bar, and most of the people there are other songwriters waiting their turn. I think when people actually listen to me, they sometimes like my songs, and they tell me. I don't know of any open mics for folk singers, unfortunately. The songwriter open mics are probably the best for me, but there aren't very many. Another thing we have here is showcases, where you get about a half hour, and you have to be invited. So I am trying to get into those, but you can't get that very often.

I have been playing at open mics a lot, during the past year. I want to get a feeling of whether people like the songs I write, or not. Also to get practice singing and playing with an audience. The response I get varies a lot, and sometimes it's positive. However, sometimes people talk loudly all through my songs. I can't tell if it's because they don't like my songs, or don't like my style, or what. I played 3 songs at an open mic the other night that people seemed to really like. Then tonight I played the same songs at a different open mic, and they were talking so loud they were practically yelling, the whole time. I asked a friend I was with why this happened and she thought it was because I am not interesting enough, or my songs don't have a "hook" or whatever. It is true I have a quiet folk style. She also thought it might be that people don't like to hear original songs. Especially in bars, and this open mic was in a bar. I felt very encouraged after the open mic the other night, but very discouraged after playing tonight. I wonder if I should just not worry about it, or should I try to figure out if I'm doing something wrong. Maybe it's just that I have the wrong style for bars. However, one time I played in a bar and everyone listened. So I don't know.