[Newby singer, Midi Instrument Player]

welcome Rob. lm really enjoying reading about all these creative artists like yourself on this forum. Such a wide spectrum of creative people, its great.

Looking forward to reading some more from you on the forum. join in or l should say, jump in lol.

[Music Appeal, Audience and Industry]

quote; 'selling an experience is simply more profitable than 'just' selling music'

 

well to be honest lm glad l evoked a debate as l wanted to share my views from the stand point  as a consumer, a creative and  l guess a moralist.

Does a person of all three have any need to be concerned with all three with it all.

well i'm bound to say yes. Does all three have any right to give a voice. l hope so. l cant be the only one, surely.

l guess the games ind and the music ind all feel the same  ' it can only get better'

but l l dont agree.

Development is of course going to happen in this high tec world we now live in as never before it's at our fingertips.

Is it going too fast, l say yes. Too fast for my liking and in my eyes it will pay a price. There seems to me to be no constraint on that development,( not just music) .sorry that's my moralistic part of me coming out.

yes im greatful for the response but all l read is from a marketing view point.   Sorry.

I'm a 'child' in this business world and so l see things as a 'child'  but l know that ok .But l  do know you are interested as you have responded, which im greatful for as you could have just ignored it. lol.

Its all massive big business and It doesnt put my mind at rest as a consumer.

l  just want to evoke a thought.

 

'Where is the music industry going' ?

 

sorry im on my soap box again lol.

[Music Appeal, Audience and Industry]

12 hours ago, john said:

It’s like synth presets. For some performers they have to create something new, unique. For many, largely less skilled, that is too slow, too fussy. They want easy, instant pay offs. Preset use here we go.

 

Older musicians, older people, are far more familiar with investing effort for richer rewards. Younger are far more oriented around instant gratification, cover a lot of ground quickly, originality is perceived as too time consuming, too costly. It’s a world that went passed “that’s close enough” when looking for something specific, straight to “oh wow” and embracing flaws largely based on ignorance because they had stopped even looking for something specific, instead choosing “next” and stopping on something that sounded interesting. They don’t even spot flaws because many are untrained and have no idea about possibilities. For them, new ideas come in the form of buying a new sound or loop library.

 

My point, is that the masses don’t look at the detail. If a blind man flying by on a bike wouldn’t notice, that is good enough for them….

 

however, the artists leading the pack, they are largely still obsessing over detail, are keen to learn, want visuals that at least connect with the story, if not match up.

quote..the masses don't look at the detail.

so true, but who's to blame for that ? l think the music ind as a whole must admit it has its share in that problem.

Why are the so doing it or should l say allowing it. 

 Last week l was watching one of the Star Wars film that l hadnt seen before ( l know, late to the party lol)  and a scene came on where its set in a club with Aliens listening to singer and music.  the singer was basically humming and the music arranment a few bars on a  sythesizer on repeat. It struck me like a bolt because l could'  thats where we are going' . l feel sorry for young musicans, songwriters etc trying to get into the business because when they see whats being promoted they think ' oh thats easy l could do that'  and what happens their talent is destroyed becuase they give up as 'the masses dont care and the music ind dont care' 

someone said to me on here when l asked where is all going to end, he said the future is that music will be fed to us off all the old artists tracks of yesterday because there is nothing left..so we will be rocking to just the old beats of yesterday. and l believe it. what a waste of young talent of today who will just give up on tomorrow.

[Composer | Producer]

1 hour ago, Marcel Moreau said:

Hello all,

 

I'm from Brighton, UK. I've been composing and producing for 16 years.

 

My experience is varied - I've written and produced for artists on independent labels and freelance, with some features in Rolling Stone, Vogue, NTS, BBC Radio 6 and KCRW. In addition to this, I have been creating music for sync for a number of years, having placements with GoPro, Netflix, Paramount, ITV & Channel 4. 

 

I am now endeavouring to train my voice and develop my lyric writing, with a view of top-lining an ongoing personal project that I plan to take live. 

 

Warm regards,

 

Marcel Moreau

welcome Marcel. your a very busy bee, good luck with all your projects , looking forward to seeing/hearing you on here. im out to learn from people like yourself.

[Music Appeal, Audience and Industry]

4 hours ago, john said:

It’s like synth presets. For some performers they have to create something new, unique. For many, largely less skilled, that is too slow, too fussy. They want easy, instant pay offs. Preset use here we go.

 

Older musicians, older people, are far more familiar with investing effort for richer rewards. Younger are far more oriented around instant gratification, cover a lot of ground quickly, originality is perceived as too time consuming, too costly. It’s a world that went passed “that’s close enough” when looking for something specific, straight to “oh wow” and embracing flaws largely based on ignorance because they had stopped even looking for something specific, instead choosing “next” and stopping on something that sounded interesting. They don’t even spot flaws because many are untrained and have no idea about possibilities. For them, new ideas come in the form of buying a new sound or loop library.

 

My point, is that the masses don’t look at the detail. If a blind man flying by on a bike wouldn’t notice, that is good enough for them….

 

however, the artists leading the pack, they are largely still obsessing over detail, are keen to learn, want visuals that at least connect with the story, if not match up.

thanks John for replying. just woke & on my first cuppa of the day lol so will take my time over the day to read your 2 posts.

But one quick question, where to do think its all going the music industry.? l

do realise it contains a lot of 'elements' that make it up but all l can see is ' erosion and eventual destruction. im assuming you are a producer so have your finger on the pulse but all l can see is it going in the wrong direction with all this tec at its fingertips.

Kids want, kids demand, so music ind gives it !!!!

yes im from the old school and to be honest l think its too late on what l see, but l fear for it all as l see the music ind as a complete whole is largely to blame for it all and l dont think the industry even realises it !! 

 gosh im on my soap box at 9am in morning, good job im not in a room full of Producers at 9am spilling this all out, they would be chucking me out at 9.05am lol.

[Two Part Writing Challenge: Part One]

5 hours ago, john said:

It is up to you. Ideally, if you would like to close the loop and go through your song discussing choices you make as a writer and exploring options you might have. That can be before or after you record or even release it. This is very much a personal challenge, so it is up to you how you would like to use the experience to learn and grow. If your preference is to discuss intention, to explore options, without posting the work it is a bit harder, but it may still be of use to you. This is not a contest with a prize. It is intended as an exercise as part of writer development. Indies don’t often get the same options and opportunities as signed writers. They don’t have anyone else involved in helping them develop. While the process of writer or artist development might not be the same, I hope it goes some way to help with writer development and where appropriate artist development.

yes l like this challenge, l challengue myself a lot on writing  daily, used as a development for a personal exploring of ideas and would like to post it somewhere as l go to get others to join in.im  just not sure which page to post on as im still new on here and still looking around a lot. would it be on the lyric critigue  page?

[Music Appeal, Audience and Industry]

Point 2..'subscriptions and playlist have change listening habits'

 

l agree. l listen to all my music on you tube only. l only watch the vevo with lyrics added. iv never used spotify, l like the visuals on youtube and l can explore more about the  artist if l wish.

But some new  artist use of visuals has changed so much.Some visuals dont even go with the lyrics meanings,

Q...Is it to' arty'..ld love others opinions.

[Two Part Writing Challenge: Part One]

On 1/26/2023 at 5:45 PM, Jac said:

if still ok for the challenge John..here's mine..

part one.

 

'Choking fumes, blackness and lifeless clouds smothering me like needles in a blanket,

And not just me, look how many of us.

 

'they will say, 'good old Charles, doing his bit for the War effort'

i'm here, they'r not..thank  God l say

But whose to feed my kids back home.

Not them !!!

'l hate this war, Why did it happen

' for Gods sake it 1914'.

'wonder what they are doing back home' 

'Not lying in the stink hole of a trench, that's for sure'

'Hannah, l miss you so much'

 

Memories of  just one  lone Soldier in 1914.

John, can l ask, is the song im trying to put together and explore , for me to post on this page? 

[Music Appeal, Audience and Industry]

8 minutes ago, McnaughtonPark said:

In a few years, probably much the same as it is now.  In fifty years, an AI programmer will have integrated Boz Scaggs, Jackson Browne, and Bruce Springsteen and be rocking the crap outta some space station on Mars.

gson is study 3D animation, amazing software he's learning.  l challenged him often when l give ideas to put on his projects, like what would happen if programme  is given a word that has two meaning..its so cool how the computer gives visuals on the words,,we get very weird visual come up

says A1 will control everything in future, scarry..

 lyrics will it survive.?.im not sure, its communcation humans have used since the word 'lyric was formed from the instrument Lyre' that poets used to sing their words.. l feel im living in the time of the end of human communication, to be replaced by A1 robot music lol

[Music Appeal, Audience and Industry]

25 minutes ago, McnaughtonPark said:

My son would say the same about things.  My daughters, I’d be interested in hearing.  Good suggestion.

my husband is a heavy metal fan/follower. he used to have a a large collection of records. we sold most of them to buy our cottage in country  we go to club most weekend to hear live music of tribute bands..his genre metal, mine allternative rock. l asked about todays music in the charts..he says he hasnt listened to it for a few year now, he says he doesnt  think its worth it, he doesnt like the music they bring out nowadays. such a shame, what about all the lost talent out there, being swallowed up by big music industry that all they want to do is earn fast millions and at same time ruin kids 'senses'.

So made me wonder, how will the music business be in say a few years time....

 

[Music Appeal, Audience and Industry]

28 minutes ago, McnaughtonPark said:

I’m good with exploring the different song forms in current music.  Will I be catching all the ways a song is still using aspects of old genres?  I think so, at least instinctively.  I’ll hear 12 bar blues style lyrics, or when a style references the old standards or jazz.  For me, it makes sense to build on those and move it along.  
 

I don’t feel well enough equipped to write for my daughters’ generations, or my sons, I’m not sure what they listen to, but I sometimes hear them singing one of my songs.  You never really know what someone might value lyric wise.  
 

I actually want to separate somewhat from convention.  I feel free when I’m out there, I know where the strings attach and hopefully which ones to pull to guide the kite.  Of course I’ll get it wrong sometimes, most times perhaps. Sometimes, just to see if I can, I might try taking the kite to the forest, another time to the beach, but learn from the settings and the elements that work.

 

 

thats interesting you say you dont feel well equipped to write for yr daughers or sons generation. have you asked them what they feel about todays music?  my gson works few hrs in a resturant washing up to earn money to go to france to stay with my daughter working there for 12 months before comes back to do his uni study. he says the music they play ( chart music) while he's at work drives him mad, he doesnt even know who the bands are. but he knows he hates the music. we talk often about bands and genre, he likes rap and bands like foo fighter. but when l asked him about the lyrics, he said' oh l dont read/listen to them , l  dont have time, l just really listen to a few words that l like and of course the music beats.

[Music Appeal, Audience and Industry]

8 minutes ago, john said:

Hi

 

Rolling this discussion over from a critique thread… starting with a quote on my post in response to a post about the rights and wrongs of writing simple songs for a young audience with poor attention span and broad appeal:

 

and yet, there is increasing pressure from listeners crying out for substance.

 

I don’t intend a branch discussion in this thread, though I do think it a very, very useful discussion… just not in great detail in MP’s thread. I might start a new thread elsewhere.

 

Meanwhile, I would say that the listening habits of kids is less important than it once was. The active listening demographic has shifted over the years. Sure, for certain markets kids still dominate, but how kids listen has changed. It isn’t as simple as simple language, straightforward messaging, KISS. Kids are less genre defined, less genre restricted. They have broader listening habits than their forebears, with activity driven listening and activity driven diversity being much more important than it once was.

 

The demographic has also changed regarding age. There are many more engaged listeners in older age groups than there once was, and older listers are also much more likely to buy versus stream. Subscriptions and playlists have also hugely transformed listening habits and the various delivery platforms continue to shape discovery.

 

You get the points. I do agree with much of what you say for certain markets Ben,  but tapping in to trends is more nuanced than it once was and access to more market niches is much better than it once was. Money is still there to be made however how you make it has considerably changed… and it too is more nuanced and is genre/age dependent. We have access to many more vehicles than we once did. We just need to be aware of them and build suitable ways to engage them.

 

As you say, money is not the only reason and for many no reason at all. For many it is listener numbers on the surface but connection and engagement underneath…. ie reaching and connecting. What works for each target audience is pretty specific BUT as ever, you can follow trends or set trends or something in between. 
 

I posted a link the other day to a current viral video that speaks directly to the growing demand for more meat on the bone for songs. It’s a 9 minute piece all about mental health…. “Hi Ren”. A talented and challenging unsigned UK artist. A breath of fresh air.

 

Point is, different labels and publishers and production companies look for different potential products… and they don’t necessarily cater for all demand either. New appetites and rediscovered old ones are found all the time. That’s a role independents have always explored and catered for. Far more trends have been created and developed by grass roots indie than have been manufactured by labels. True, labels are great at jumping on a bandwagon and the driving that bandwagon into the ground by aggressively pursuing “easy and predictable”, but the new ground is broken by the indies.

 

I won’t drone on more other than to say, we each position ourselves towards our various audiences, intentionally or unintentionally. As a songwriter (less so an artist) we get to write cross genre and broad appeal right through to very niche. We cater accordingly. 
 

It still remains true that we can make a good living from 10k real fans (if money making is a goal) and you can make a decent living from considerably less. Much depends on the loyalty we build and how prolific we are. As a Songwriter that isn’t an artist we are one step away from the action. For me, writing for specific artists and their audiences is a very effective way ahead, but it isn’t your only option. If you write according to lowest common denominator ( most common, best liked etc) music is bang in the middle of the road, feels more restrictive and is often unchallenging and less original. Getting the balance right is a bit harder, I think.

 

 

 

 

Crack on with the debate

right, ll break the above into sections, to start the dissusion if that ok.

 

 point l.   'the attention of kids has changed' l agree but l feel the music ind is not helping kids but giving into that change. l feel its in fact making it worse for kids to actively listen to anything. what l mean as 'actively listen' is my perception of communication. Communication is being eroded..it fact l think communication is dying. what will be commication be in a 100's years time ? l fear for the future of the nk generation regarding communication as what we see today is kids heads buried in phones no bigger than a match box, typing short l word or a icon for a sentence.talk to those same kids if you can ge them off the phones and they dont want to listen to anyone or even talk to anyone. the music ind has a high price it paying to indulge those kids in the music its marketing today with the same sort of short commincation in lyrics. what will the music ind do in a 100's time when communication is gone ! 

the music ind has a lot to answer for.

[Two Part Writing Challenge: Part One]

if still ok for the challenge John..here's mine..

part one.

 

'Choking fumes, blackness and lifeless clouds smothering me like needles in a blanket,

And not just me, look how many of us.

 

'they will say, 'good old Charles, doing his bit for the War effort'

i'm here, they'r not..thank  God l say

But whose to feed my kids back home.

Not them !!!

'l hate this war, Why did it happen

' for Gods sake it 1914'.

'wonder what they are doing back home' 

'Not lying in the stink hole of a trench, that's for sure'

'Hannah, l miss you so much'

 

Memories of  just one  lone Soldier in 1914.

[FunnyMan]

12 hours ago, jhanover said:

I like the use of is and isn’t but the rest comes across as forced rhymes. That can happen with quick writes. If you were to have is and isn’t play as a refrain, or repetitive line with alternate rhymes could work.

” That kind of humor throws you in prison

Sorry? Yes he is, no he isn’t “

” That punchline, so easily given

overused yes it is, or no it isn’t “

Just as rough examples. What is your most common form you find strength in? Mine is the Pantoum.

hi jhanover, how are you ?  my above poem is one of  ' one a day ' quick writes. challenges... not meant to be serious work. l do it for fun lol.

l wrote it in 2 mins flat lol.

l just find a title theme and let it flow. l dont think about what lm writing, l just let it go. lol. 

 

im interest if others do that in their days writing schedule.  Do you do that ?

l try to have a set plan

mine is l hr fooling around with what ever comes into my head   (like above poem)

 a few hr's working on some serious stuff .

and at least l hr studying a music Artists lyric writing. At the moment its Kate Bush lyric writin

l keep a small pad handy to write down title ideas as they.

l keep a A4 note pad next to me for scribbling ideas. im constantly having ideas . ie, a theme title popped in my head as l put the kettle on this morning..had to stop and write it down , drives me crazy if l dont lol. 

plus iv just bought a brilliant massive  large multi compartment case that has loads of paper pockets for me to file all my work in . l love it but its taking me some time to organize it. 

 

and l hr studying lyric structure.

 

l dont study poetry structure anymore, im trying not to even write poetry anymore, it gets in the way of lyric structure such a lot and complicates things , but its so hard to give up. l dont want to study poetry, l want to study lyric writing.

 

tell me how you structure your writing day, l d love to hear. 

take care

Jac.

[FunnyMan]

A fast and furious 2 min poem l just wrote.. 

there's a comedian on tv that l just loathe

please feel free to dissect and pull it apart,

i'm in the mood for pain.

 

Funny Man.

 

Funnyman nearly walked in my shoes today

oh no he didnt, oh yes he did

funnyman was just walking my way

oh no he didnt, oh yes he did.

 

Funnyman thinks he knows my life

but he's never, met my wife

he makes jokes he's never seen

but just for once, will he come clean.

 

He's not so funny now he's in my shoes

he stepped through the mirror

and ate the clues

his wife's now invalid, just like mine

oh yes she is, oh no she isnt.

 

Funnyman took off his shoes today

is'nt that always just the way

Is'nt he lucky he just tell jokes

on TV, as he throws the pokes.

 

He should walk in my shoes for  just one day 

but that's what happens, they just  walkaway.

he pockets his money and earnt a quid, 

oh no he did'nt, oh yes he did.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[For Hannah]

Hannah was my grandmother who l never met. She was found dead with her 4 day old baby in her arms.

she was just 38 years old

My grandfather was lying dead in the other room, he was 39 yrs old.

The both died of the Spanish flu in 1919.

l have her photograph, she was a beautiful Irish lass.

[For Hannah]

another poem. l wrote in 2017

copyright 2017.

 

The race for love

is just to much

as l see your face before me

your eyes so tender

as it holds my goodbyes

but words of hope

it never dies.

 

ll breathe the night

as journeys fly

so little time, 

the future lied.

lets close the door,

the storms too much

our windows light

no more to touch.

 

So sleep my love

as worlds go by

for darkness came

the day you died.

 

As yearning flowed

on time untouched

in broken dreams

l cried, l cried.

 

So sleep my love

as my world goes by

for the darkness came .

the day you died.

 

The empty space.

holds my goodbyes

but of our love

it never dies.

ll wait in sleep

an ache untold

for the road l took

and a heart foretold.

 

ln sleep l'll wait

till time it calls

for tears from me

no more will fall.

 

We'll sleep my love

as these worlds go by

for darkness came

the day you died,

 

for darkness came

the day you died.

 

 

 

 

 

[Betrayer Demands An Audience]

was just looking through my old work..found this from 2017..hope you like it.

 

Poem title

Betrayer Demands An Audience

 

Pretty smiles

dressed in camouflage

full in view, but hidden

talking in sincerity

to silent attentive listeners.

 

Impressive Actor

his stage now set

for the betrayer demands an audience

he's inspired from arising cheers

see. his deceitful decorations near

 

And when found out

he's drawn them in

his performance was just to win

his stage impressive

and the Actor glorious

for the betrayer demands an audience.

 

 

 

[Hi from a strange harpist and singer !!]

Welcome Madeleine.

[Hello]

And hello to you.  thanks for the welcome.

not sure when l am allowed to post any of my work on here..i'm still looking around and getting used to the diff parts of the forum. im hoping to log in daily for an hour when not lyric writing. im busy bee at moment but l love to read poetry so you will me a lot on there giving feedback.

[A Kowledge To Forget]

very interesting poem. l re- read it a few times, seems sad words though from the poet,.l would agree with Jhanover on a bit of tiding up of the grammar, but l like the flow of idea in the poem, well done.

did you know that angels in heaven sing when they communicate with each other ..it says so in the bible. As man is made in Gods image  and God  also made the angels,  perhaps that's why we have a calling to write/sing poems and songs

ps..my grammar is terrible as you will see from when l post on here, please feel free to tell me to tidy up my own  

[Please Send Help]

We live in the most tec age, yet loneliness is more widespread than ever in all of mans history.

l blame all tec..bring back pen and paper.

Well written poem, speaks volumes.

[Innocence.]

l really like this poem. Very apt title.

l liked the line

'l tried to sneak up on it'..made me wonder why the poet would want to do that, so l read on.

Then the last line got me. Sad but true.

We live in Innocence but for such a short time

[Hello]

Hello. i'm Jac.

l have a passion to write lyrics. l see my world through poetry which l cant help but write down all the time.  l  use imagery in words to make sense of this journey we call life.