Language Phrases In Lyric Writing

[john]

Hey

I thought it would be interesting to discuss the use of language phrases within a lyric.

How aware are you of your use of phrases or permutations of them? Do you rely upon/use them a lot?

How do you select phrases?

Do you tend to use exact phrases or permutations/twists/partial phrases more often?

Example "talk to the hand, the face ain't listening". A common phrase.

Example "talk to the hand". A common partial phrase used to reference.

Example "You're talking to my hand, but my face ain't listening". phrase permutation.

Example "Don't talk to the hand, while the is face is listening". phrase twist.

Cheers

John

[Steve]

Example "talk to the hand, the face ain't listening". A common phrase.

Is it?

Personaly, I don't think I ever do that. Intentionally or otherwise! I also don't recall reading any lyrics (here) that have employed any 'phrases' that I would have recognised. is this something I've just failed to notice? Or are you all using language that I can't see through the haze of wine?

[john]

Hi Steve

Yeah, a common phrase in the US a few years ago. My sister in law used it all the time. Something like that anyway.

I use common phrases sometimes though I tend to used twists, partials and permutation.

By using a common phrase it makes it easier for listeners to both remember a song and to identify with it, but many lyricists don't seem to be aware of the benefits of phrases.

Placing a common phrase or permutation etc in a hook position makes a very powerful statement.

You can over do it though.

Cheers

John

[Steve]

Perhaps we do it unconciously? I must say it's something I would never even have thought about had you not brought it up!

[john]

Hey

One other key benefit is that when you use a common phrase (any of the varieties) it conveys a whole lot of images that are already assosciated with the phrase, and that can be handy. By twisting the phrase, because the images are changed it sticks in the mind better too.

By applying a common phrase to an individual or a situation we automatically assosciate all the connotations and images that go along with the phrase. this means you can creat a very detailed background with only a few words.

For example the phrase:

Three strikes and you are out (or similar)

This is a common phrase, but it conveys a lot. The fact it is common makes it a memorable line in the song. If you assosciate it with a person then contextually you can convey in that one line that they have had more than one chance and that depending on the tense perhaps convey that they have struck out (perhaps setting up the use of that line later) or a weaker connection from the line above alone. It also converys that perhaps someone is checking and keeping a tally, that there are rules to adhere to.

In common language, although from baseball originally, it is already applied to many situations including love, romance etc.

Maybe not a great example but you get the idea.

if you twist this phrase:

I was out before my 3 striikes

Similar information is assosciated, but now with something extra. Something that broke the rule that the phrase refers to. Not the most memorable of twists but hey I'm making examples up as I go along!

Cheers

John

[Retrosaurus Rex]

I have a sign at my desk that says "Talk to the Hand" and a picture of a hand, my hand in fact, which I traced... I put it up when I'm at lunch..

As for the phrases, I use or have used all those permutations quite consciously from time to time. One of my recent practice exercises is to go thru those permutations with typical cliche phrases trying to find interesting twists. I never defined them as exactly as John did just now, and I find that very useful...

[Lazz]

Is it?

Ha.

I had the same trouble with that example.

I know I’ve heard it once or twice but had no idea what it meant except that it seemed vaguely contemptuous.

Maybe if I heard it in a song I would make more sense of the imagery.

don't recall reading any lyrics (here) that have employed any 'phrases' that I would have recognised.

is this something I've just failed to notice? Or are you all using language that I can't see through the haze of wine?

Really ?

Loads of mine posted here have overflowed with ‘em,

Not being overtly noticeable is something I still ponder.

Maybe – like lighting or sound production – we only notice devices when they are clumsy.

Interesting.

Now as to the questions:

How aware am I of my use of phrases or permutations of them?

Fully aware.

(But I still think of them as clichés, John - do you consider them something essentially different ?)

Do I rely upon/use them a lot?

I believe so.

How do I select phrases?

Conversational conventions mostly – mine or those of others – eavesdropping is always good – something always sings out to me if I’m listening.

Do you tend to use exact phrases or permutations/twists/partial phrases more often?

Hard to say - I like to ‘twist’ ‘em if I can get away with it and if it’s appropriate but sometimes there tends to become some kind of commitment or obligation to echo the conceit throughout – so it can get really tough and messy and laboured. Exact phrases, I think, resonate more readily with listeners, but sometimes you just have to mould it to match the meter.

[john]

Hey

Good comments. I think they are potential clichés, or clichés depending on the popularity of the phrase and it's application. If I use a common phrase in an uncommon way it utilises the cliché benefits (identification, familiarity etc) but it loses the jaded element a cliché can have.

Sometimes a pop song will come along, loaded with phrases, and the popularity of the song and it's adoption by the public can turn it into a cliché too.

I also consider the placement, number and type of common phrases or derived from common phrases within the lyric. learning to be aware of the use and over use of such phrases can make a huge difference to the appeal of a lyric, and to the lyricist imho.

Cheers

John

[AnneC]

I think I know what you mean, or maybe I'm using a variation. I have a work in progress that uses the phrase "so far" in its various meanings, such as indicating distance and alluding to the passage of time.

[john]

Hey

Be interesting to see that lyric Anne to see how you have used it.

Anyone else? Sheesh I thought this would be an interesting topic

Cheers

John

[lemonstar]

Lazz "stole my thunder", i.e. he wrote all my answers out for me.

I tend to refer to these familiar phrases as "idioms". The main issue for me is avoiding the cliches (and that's subjective) - familiarity provides a hook to draw the listeners attention in. Sometimes they provide a vivid way to sum something up, e.g. "on all fours" says everything much more colloquially than explaining that someone was on their hands and knees in a literal sense - in this case, as is also the case sometimes with idioms, they can be use metaphorically.

I have a dictionary of idioms that I sometimes look at for ideas when I want to say something in a less literal or a more imaginative way.

In:

"Yeah I'm gonna wake up

Then I'll sleep like a rock tonight"

I used the sleep idiom to contrast with wake up metaphor - all (well trying anyway) to explain that I can sleep peacefully once I've finally got myself in tune with reality, the real me and the world at large.

As for twists - it's nice if you can find a good one - a song I'm working on now "Goodbye Cool World" is all about global warming.

I read that Shakespear is the source of a couple of thousand commonly used idioms, phases and words - many still in use today.

[Lazz]

I have a dictionary of idioms...

Don't have any of those.

I would be interested to look at yours

What's the name ? (No - don't tell me - it's called "A Dictionary Of Idioms" innit ?)

And whos the geezer ?

"Goodbye Cool World"

Wish I had thought of that.

[Bitstream]

Idiot!

[Lazz]

Idiot!

How kind.

[lemonstar]

Don't have any of those.

I would be interested to look at yours

What's the name ? (No - don't tell me - it's called "A Dictionary Of Idioms" innit ?)

And whos the geezer ?

It's Cassell's Dictionary of English Idioms (Rosalind Fergusson is the geezer!)

It has a picture of a back cat and a pigeon on the front. About 400 pages - 40-50 idioms per page.

I saw an idiom on an American website (an idiom that's also a simile) "as crazy as a pear-orchard boar" or something to that effect, never heard it myself before, so something familiar, maybe cliched, in one part of the world might be considered quite the opposite elsewhere. I can just imagine the fallen fermenting pears crawling with drunken wasps.

[Lazz]

It's Cassell's Dictionary of English Idioms (Rosalind Fergusson is the geezer!)

As someone from my past would have said - "Not a bad geezer, for a bird!"

Thanks for the swift response.

I'll take a butcher's.

something familiar, maybe cliched, in one part of the world might be considered quite the opposite elsewhere

Interesting too that they might sometimes echo the same.

In writing a small piece once for Didier, I queried whether a reference I had made to someone "talking through their hat" would translate successfully into French. Didier re-assured me that the processes of hat-making had been just the same in France as in the UK and that the occupational hazard of mercury poisoning had given rise to a shared set of colloquial imagery ('mad as a hatter'). It would be completely different for something like 'at sixes and sevens' though - something rooted in the order of guilds for the Lord Mayor's parade and so unlikely to travel well and be understood.

Edited April 7, 2008 by Lazz

[Bitstream]

How kind.

only kidding, Lazz

[Lazz]

only kidding, Lazz

Phew!

That's a relief.

Thought I'd pissed-off someone else.

[Bitstream]

Phew!

That's a relief.

Thought I'd pissed-off someone else.

you don't give yourself enough credit imho, Great to read such a wise digestion, even if it's only now and again. AND I appreciate you do travel quite a bit. Very refreshing dude