Alright.. I'm Completely Lost!

[Quathan]

I have a bunch of questions, and if anyone can answer them for me, it would solve A LOT. I feel very overwhelmed and confused at the fact that I do not know the answers.

1. When someone wants to write a song, how and from who/what do they learn theory, musical notation elements, musical writing elements, etc?

2. I stare at a blank piece of staff paper and I almost feel like screaming due to the fact that I cannot write the hundreds of musical ideas that flourish in my head. What do I do?

3. When a band or a single person wishes to write an entire song (consisting of lyrics, guitar, bass, drums, keyboard, etc.), what is the typical process of songwriting that bands go through? In particular, I am talking about progressive artists, such as Dream Theater.

4. I sort of made up a song on the bass, and I won't have a problem adding drums to it (since I am natively a drummer), but how do I add guitar chords and other instruments to it? How do I even write it out?

5. Are there any good books that teach the reader all about music theory? Any good books for beginning music theory learners? How about intermediate?

Sorry if my questions seem too broad.

[roxhythe]

Okay, I'll try--first. I hope folks with more expertise than I will chime in. I'll go last to first.

(5) Yes, there are books. somebody else is going to have to tell you what they are, because I don't have any of them. Everything I know about music (and it's really not that much) I have learned from other people. People learn different things in different ways, remember.

(4) Can't help you there. I play guitar. I understand bass, and can follow bass lines, but I have never learned to play the thing. I also don't worry about it. When I've written something, I'll simply present it to the other musicians I think I want to have play on it, and just say, "Can you hear a (say) mandolin part to this?" If they do, we'll do it. If they know what they're doing, they'll come up with something way better than I could ever have dictated on my own. An idea, though. If you know the bass part, you can get to the guitar chords--the notes the bass is playing on the downbeat are *in* the chords you want. I would sit down with a guitar player and try to work it out.

(3) The band is going to write a song? Dude, that's ambitious. (Not impossible, though.) Co-writing is a lot like dating; a 5-piece band writing a song together would be like a melange a quinze--not unheard of, but difficult. A lot of bands, if they're lucky, will have one person who writes songs--maybe, like the Stones, one person who writes lyrics and another music. I had the luxury of being in a band that had two songwriters (one was me), but we tended to work in competition with each other, like Lennon and McCartney did. The one time we wrote a song together, it wasn't as good as we did separately. I would throw something out on the guitar, and see what everybody wanted to add to it (or if they thought it was worth adding to at all).

(2) I don't do the "blank sheet of paper." Other folks do. I'll get an idea from somewhere (inspiration comes from all sorts of places) and work it all out in my head before I write anything down. Staff paper? You're talking about writing music, and I don't write music--I *hear* music, and then try to work it out on the guitar. I'm a lot less professional at it than you. Sideline thought: There are computer programs that will generate sheet music from what you play (I think you have to play it on a keyboard, though). I've always thought it would be interesting to try that, but never have done it.

(1) Again, I learned from other people. Other people use books. Some people actually take classes in this stuff (and I've *taught* classes in this stuff). I learned patterns (&c.) from watching people play (and occasionally getting to ask them why they did what they did). I read sheet music to puzzle out what people were doing there. And along the way, I guess I absorbed some music theory without intending to.

This help? Lots of luck.

Joe

[tindle]

I have a bunch of questions, and if anyone can answer them for me, it would solve A LOT. I feel very overwhelmed and confused at the fact that I do not know the answers.

1. When someone wants to write a song, how and from who/what do they learn theory, musical notation elements, musical writing elements, etc?

2. I stare at a blank piece of staff paper and I almost feel like screaming due to the fact that I cannot write the hundreds of musical ideas that flourish in my head. What do I do?

3. When a band or a single person wishes to write an entire song (consisting of lyrics, guitar, bass, drums, keyboard, etc.), what is the typical process of songwriting that bands go through? In particular, I am talking about progressive artists, such as Dream Theater.

4. I sort of made up a song on the bass, and I won't have a problem adding drums to it (since I am natively a drummer), but how do I add guitar chords and other instruments to it? How do I even write it out?

5. Are there any good books that teach the reader all about music theory? Any good books for beginning music theory learners? How about intermediate?

Sorry if my questions seem too broad.

If you have a lot to do and learn, your first important lesson is to accept that you will not do and learn it all at once. It takes time to achieve something worthwhile. Nobody became a great musician/composer overnight, not even the highly exceptional Mozart. So, don't try to eat the elephant at one sitting.

Try to sort out, in your mind, what your priorities are, because the creative process is a very personal one, and is pretty much different for everyone; everyone brings something different to the process, including some things they already have. The trick is to progress as far as you can, with what you have right now, and add the rest as time goes by, because some of the skills and attributes you will need take time to develop to a point where they are useful, and can make a contribution to your effectiveness. Creativity is not a process you can 'force' like so much rhubarb...

You have raised a lot of points with your questions, too many to handle all at once, for me, at any rate.

So look in here, every day, and I'll try to cover each of your questions, one a day, until we're done..

Meanwhile, take a few minutes to consider what I've said so far. You are young, (nothing wrong with that), and if you are anything like I was, at your age, you'll be impatient, but impatience doesn't get many of us very far, when it comes to doing anything really worthwhile.. better to take time, and get it right.. more tomorrow..

Regards, George Bolam

[Songstuff]

Hey

Let me just point you to the Songstuff Songwriting Articles.

They should help answer some of your questions, although often there are several right answers and you have to find what works best for you.

[tindle]

I have a bunch of questions, and if anyone can answer them for me, it would solve A LOT. I feel very overwhelmed and confused at the fact that I do not know the answers.

1. When someone wants to write a song, how and from who/what do they learn theory, musical notation elements, musical writing elements, etc?

2. I stare at a blank piece of staff paper and I almost feel like screaming due to the fact that I cannot write the hundreds of musical ideas that flourish in my head. What do I do?

3. When a band or a single person wishes to write an entire song (consisting of lyrics, guitar, bass, drums, keyboard, etc.), what is the typical process of songwriting that bands go through? In particular, I am talking about progressive artists, such as Dream Theater.

4. I sort of made up a song on the bass, and I won't have a problem adding drums to it (since I am natively a drummer), but how do I add guitar chords and other instruments to it? How do I even write it out?

5. Are there any good books that teach the reader all about music theory? Any good books for beginning music theory learners? How about intermediate?

Sorry if my questions seem too broad.

I promised to write a preply a day until I answer your questions.. starting with question one..

1. When someone wants to write a song, how and from who/what do they learn theory, musical notation elements, musical writing elements, etc?

If you have something to say, musically, you will want to get it out of your mind and into the world. You could wait, if you are patient enough, until you are accomplished in music theory, able to sight read and write musical notation, orchestrate and arrange music. You could then write it all down and produce a manuscript... but that would take quite some time, and a good deal of effort on your part. Laudable though all that might be, it simply isn't essential, and, in any case, you would probably find that your beautifully prepared manuscript would be all but worthless to your fellow or potential band members, because the reality is that most people playing in bands are not that proficient in musical theory or sight reading of notation. That isn't to say that you should not learn those skills over time, and apply them; Arguably, if want to be a music professional, those skills are very valuable in the right quarters, so worth learning.

Most of us either make some sort of demonstration or 'demo' recording, using a simple tape recorder, or record to the hard disk of a PC. Since you appear on this forum, you clearly have a PC, or access to one, so, initially, that might be your best bet. Either play or sing or hum the melody of your composition into a microphone, and record the result, and produce a tape or CD to play back to other people or to use as a basis to develop your work. That gets you started as a 'writer'. For most popular music forms, the musical elements are not that complicated, so formal tuition in music theory, though helpful, is really rather over the top. I suggest you start writing, and don't worry, too much, about everything being formally correct. 'If it sounds good, it is good', is a good rule to follow..especially when you remember that popular musicians break the formal rules of composition regularly.

All that said, who do you learn from? By listening to anyone whose music you like, talking to anyone you know who plays an instrument. Go to local gigs and talk to musicians, who are gnerally very friendly and helpful about the things you want to know..read the articles on this forum, look at other websites for information, go to your local library, read the relevant books..go to your local schools and ask to talk to the music teachers, ask at your local colleges what courses you might take. Look through the hundreds of instructional videos on the web, and the instructional websites for your chosen instruments..

There is no unique 'Bible for a musician/composer' you can purchase, that tells you everything you need to know. Being a musician is about getting stuck in and doing it, not sitting around waiting for a perfect education to drop into your lap. Being a writer/composer is about being creative, and getting the tunes and words out in the open air, so they can breathe. Don't wait for perfect conditions, they will never come. You need to pick the best out of the things you find, to help you. Since you are unique, no one can really tell you what the best books to buy are.. you need to do your own research, find the things you need. It's hard work, being a writer...

If you really insist on a formal education, find out about full time College and University courses, raise the funds and go..but, I would say the real answer to your first question is simply, this.. the person you will learn the most from is... YOU. The thing you will learn the most from is... DOING IT

George Bolam

[Lazz]

Good man, George.

Good as your word and taking time to help.

Bravo.

Some good advice and meaty encouragement in there for you, Quathan.

And right as far as it goes – but, if you want to go further, when you want & need to learn & understand theory & notation, then go right ahead and do it. You will never regret the effort. I wish more people here determined to get that side together – after all, it’s really not that hard – and, like George says, mostly it comes from doing it and using it.

most people playing in bands are not that proficient in musical theory or sight reading of notation

This may indeed be true right across a large swathe of the brit-pop hit-scoring tradition but, in my personal experience, north america is a completely different professional world where expectations are very different from those described by George.

For most popular music forms, the musical elements are not that complicated, so formal tuition in music theory, though helpful, is really rather over the top.

I think that depends entirely upon your personal goals and ambitions: if they head clearly in a pro direction, then music theory is a pretty fundamental requirement. For most popular music forms, as George says, life isn’t hugely complicated – so, why not have it sorted ? Then your work can become more purposeful and less the consequence of happy accidents. I mean, 'If it sounds good, it is good' is a terrific principle and guiding maxim – but if you can know why it sounds good and how the emotional effect is achieved then you can become so much more effective in your aim.

None of that can ever be regarded as ‘over the top’.

And if you seriously want to address questions 1) & 2), there is absolutely no alternative.

Gets you towards solving question 4) also.

who do you learn from?

You need a teacher at least.

You can learn a whole whack of stuff from books. Always something benefits. Years later you can turn the same pages and find something new you couldn’t see before. But you need someone who knows where you are at and can answer questions and steer you right. Cumulative understanding is much more coherent and illuminating than bits and pieces from here and there. A teacher saves you a whole bunch of time and effort. Learn from everyone you get to work and play with, too. Try and work and hang with people who are way better than you. Find places to 'sit-in'.

Long Island is stuffed full of folk who can help you.

For Q 3) - I have no idea what the typical process of songwriting would be for guys like these. I know how I work, and I know how those I have worked with work, and that’s about it. I had never even heard of ‘Dream Theater’ before your post, but have since learned that they are Berklee alumni, so it seems a fair assumption they know theory and notation pretty good and can communicate easy with a shared muso-language.

Good Luck.

Don't stop.

Edited June 26, 2008 by Lazz

[Guitargodchris]

Well I sourced something about Dream Theater's writing process from Here

As for the looking at a blank piece of paper, I always carry a notebook around with me and if I have an idea for a song storyline, ranom lyric or a rhyme then I will write it in there and then look over it when I get home or when I get a chance.

Just write about subjects that you can relate to, it will make it a bit easier.

Also don't be scared to take ideas or inspiration from other artist's songs, now copying and taking inspiration are two different ends of the scale but I have done it before, heard one line in a song that portraits a lot of imagery or emotion and built on the same emotion and written it to my own style.

Hope this helps

P.S ... John Petrucci Is A God !!!!

Regards,

Chris

[tindle]

I don't disagree with anything that's been added to this thread, it's all pretty good stuff, and it ought to get you thinking, and, thinking a little for yourself, with the benefit of good advice, from wise and experienced people, is no bad thing at all.

Reading the original post, I had the sense of someone quite confused, a little overwhelmed, by the scale of the perceived difficulties. My feeling is, when trying to overcome what looks like a daunting series of disadvantages, it's important to realise that though, maybe, you can't change reality all at once, there is always something you can do to get the ball rolling, which makes you feel better, and will probably teach you something about how to resolve your problem, as well as making a contribution to it's solution.

Now, good as my intentions are, life has intervened, and I'm going to have to leave any further contribution I might make for a couple of days. It's ten past eleven at night, I've just got back from an unexpected late shift at work, and face a five thirty a.m. start tomorrow, followed by a gig tomorrow night..the best laid plans, and all that.

I'll keep my committment to help, if slightly delayed, on Saturday evening. See you then.

regards,

George..

[Guitargodchris]

Work at 5:30am ? ... no thanks

Rather sleep in all day

Just finished college today for summer

Good luck with the gig George

[Lazz]

regards,

George..

Hey George.

I think you should put you MySpace link in your signature.

It's a link well worth the clicking.

[tindle]

Hey George.

I think you should put you MySpace link in your signature.

It's a link well worth the clicking.

Hey Lazz..thanks for thinking of me with that last.. I'm up to my neck with stuff at the moment, so I haven't quite got sorted on a few odds and ends, like that one..it's a good idea, though, and I will do it..

actually, I'll do it now!

[tindle]

2. I stare at a blank piece of staff paper and I almost feel like screaming due to the fact that I cannot write the hundreds of musical ideas that flourish in my head. What do I do?

Ok, back again..

Everyone is different, some folks can write to order, as it were, sit down and put a song together.. Some have to wait until the muse takes them, and when it does, grab a piece of paper and write. Some tinker with an instrument, 'doodle' a bit, and come up with something they find interesting to develop.

We are all different. Some of us get an idea, once in a while, some 'a dozen a day'. Most of us have good periods and not so prolific periods. Whatever an individual's writing pattern, few of us ever get to bring to fruition every idea we ever came up with, and that's probably not such a bad thing, because most of them were probably not as brilliant as they seemed, at the time, anyway. So, don't worry if you can't get to 'record' (in whatever way), all of your ideas. The good one's often persist, won't go away until they are finished, quite often surfacing, in a modified form, at a later time. Some might well be good ideas, but fade away and never see the light of day, as a finished work. That's just how it is, sometime's, and you just have to accept the reality of every day human existence. That's a writers lot.

If you, literally, have 'hundreds of ideas', then, in all probability, only a few will be any good, unless you are truly exceptional, and you will discard most of them, in any case, in due time. So don't let it worry you, because the few really good ideas you do have will suffice to get you started. Don't forget, you don't have to have a full elephant sandwich at every sitting, you can eat it, bit by bit, over time.

So, these good ideas? You don't have to write things down, every time, to save the musical ideas..most writers write fragments of melodies and words, and piece them together into a whole, over time. Only rarely, if ever, will complete pieces come together, as a complete and coherent whole. Paul Mc.Cartney claims 'Yesterday' came to him in that way, but I doubt if that's literally true. So, you make notes. You write down what you can, and you record, in some tangible way, what you can't. I literally record ideas, by playing them in rough on my Guitar, or Keyboard, straight into my PC, and I save them on the hard disk, trying to make sure I capture the salient mood and melodic and harmonic structure, and then work on them, when I can. You could, alternatively, hum, sing, or play the tune into a tape recorder, hard disk recorder, whatever, and save it that way.. you have to make use of whatever resources you possess or can quickly aquire.

Rome wasn't built in a day, a cliche, but so true, so, my advice is, accept your limitations, do what you have to do, for now, to get those ideas out of your head and into the world. Meanwhile, take the plethora of advice you see here, right here, on this website, and get started on your more formal musical education, so you can write some notes on a stave, and understand, later, what you meant, when you need to make the music come alive, out in the air..

George, or, er, tindle, or er, whatever..

[tindle]

I'm suspending any further contributions from me to this thread..I may be being grossly unfair, and if so, I'll apologise and continue where I left off, but I have the uncomfortable feeling that the person who instigated the thread is not reading the responses. I have more important things to do than talk to myself. If he wants to know what I think about the rest of his questions, he'll need to tell me so..

Cheers, George

[Quathan]

I'm suspending any further contributions from me to this thread..I may be being grossly unfair, and if so, I'll apologise and continue where I left off, but I have the uncomfortable feeling that the person who instigated the thread is not reading the responses. I have more important things to do than talk to myself. If he wants to know what I think about the rest of his questions, he'll need to tell me so..

Cheers, George

Oh, believe me, I'm reading every word and sentence in this thread, and one other that I posted in the music production section. Sorry if I'm being rather ... quiet. I usually have a habit of doing that on a forum. I checked out the Songstuff Songwriting Articles section. All you guys were right - there is a wealth of information there that I literally spent hours reading on. So far, all of you have been particularly helpful to me, as you are posting your own unique thoughts on my questions.

Anyway, I read that RoadRunner Records website on the typical writing process for Dream Theater. I was actually surprised at how they do it; they usually jam and find ideas in their riffs and such. The way I thought it worked was when they had an idea in their heads, they would play it out and write it to paper. At least, that's how I try to do it. Perhaps the reason I become frustrated is because I might have this complex guitar or keyboard riff in my head, or I want to play a chord on the keyboard, and I immediately think that I should find how to play it, and formally write it out. Either that, or if I make up a riff on the guitar, and I try to write it out, I can't always get the form right.

I suppose that what I want to do in the future is develop an extremely large understanding of theory, so I will know how and why things sound they way they do, as stated by Lazz.

Once again, thank you. You all, so far, have been very helpful. Any other information would be appreciated, by the way.

Thanks,

-Mike

[tindle]

Thanks for the note, Mike..you do get a lot of time wasters on forums, so I posted that note, carefully worded, so as not to cause offence, ('cos none intended); thing is, I'm an older guy, and I don't have time to waste, but, that said, I am prepared to spend time helping anyone who thinks they need it..

You did just what I hoped you would, and posted the note, which was very nice of you, so thank you again... so, reassurred, soon as I can, I'll make some more observations, ok?

Take care,

tindle

[thelevellers]

Well, I don't have a wealth of experience to call on to help out here, but personally I find that writing quick guitar (or bass, and even drums have a shorthand notation I believe?) tab of any good riffs helps me feel good about not just forgetting a 'fat riff' I just made up.

If I find I get the riff recurring and expanding in my head I then crack out the free powertab editor programme (or the considerably less free guitar pro ) and then use that to try and build the different parts together. I am personally mainly a guitarist, my skills with other instruments a a large number of levels lower, so when I write parts for other instruments they are usually with the thought 'I expect to find a skilled *insert instrument* player who will make this better' firmly in my head. If I had a band to throw ideas at then I would do as Joe mentioned - play a riff and say 'is it just me or does that need a kick ass bass line just there?' and see where the idea develops from there.

Your last comment sounds good - understanding WHY something sounds good could well help you find more cool sounds/parts etc, and if you're interested learning shouldn't be too hard! I have personally found that using powertab editor has helped me learn the basics (only the basics mind!) of music theory, as it combines the incredibly simple tabulature (which is easy to understand) with the more complicated sheet music, complete with all the musical direction signs and stuff (that stuff is still confusing me, maybe I should focus on it and figure it out soon!).

Not sure if I've really added much information in all that, but I tried Good luck getting your head around stuff!