Riffs/soloing

[Donna]

Hey all,

Maybe this came up before, but I'm seeking practical able-to-apply helps. Like Tom Hess' article spoke of, to apply what one's learned.

Is there a formula any of you used, as a beginner, like go up the blues scale in time alotted, for whatever chord?

Explicit, written out examples or links much appreciated! As are formulas which can be applied accross the board. t/y kindly~

Hey and PS! We in the States get an extra hour tonight. I thought about how to use that extra hour and chose to use it for playing guitar.

[333maxwell]

Hi Donna..

There are a few things I might recommend, but take my advice with a grain of salt, as I myself have never had a formal music lesson in my life.

One thing when I started out that helped me the most was to toss out convention. I knew I needed to start with at least the 7 basic chords (although looking back I really didn't know there was seven at the time, I just knew I needed to learn some chords) So I started listening and mimicking my interpetation of how to play chords. Later when I got a book of chords I actualy was playing a few of them correctly.

So I learned my chords, A through E in the first position on the neck. Then I started sounding out the same chords going up the neck. One could say I was teaching myself some basic scales and arpeggios, but I was just trying to mimick the chords in the first position and find the same sounding chords up the neck.

Now here is where my advice may help or may hurt.. take it for wht it is worth to you.

After I had my chords down I realized some of them played in sequence would sound a lot like songs, but not complete songs. I had two choices that seemed obvious to me at the time. I could spend my time learning other peoples songs OR I could just start making my own.

Within days I had developed a few songs that I had created.. simple stuff, but songs no less.. THIS really put a bug under me.. I found that instead of thinking of myself as a guitarist, I started thinking of myself as a guy who likes to write songs and used the guitar as a tool to do that. Once I had the epiphony that the guitar would follow the songwriting, instead of the songwriting following the guitar, it became increasingly easier to express myself on the instrument.

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I guess where I am going with this is.. if I were to have to start over I may just opt for the 'formal lessons route' as I certainly could learn so much faster and actualy learn how to do things the right way instead of having to correct bad habbits later. That being said if you ARE going to self teach, MAKE YOUR OWN RULES. If you feel the need to run scales, DO IT.. look to yourself to guide what, when and how you want to learn something.

As a kid it was hard to even find a book in my little mountain town, and so I used to take 45 records and find a lick or passage I wanted to mimick and I would actualy put a notch in the groves with a knife so the record would skip (and more often than not in the wrong placee) so I could hear the lick over and over.

THESE days you have a wealth of information at your fingertips. guitar.about.com is a good resource and there are so many more. As a lad I woulda KILLED for a youtube, instead I had to literally stalk BB King and go to a show if I wanted to see someone play guitar with my own eyes.

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I doubt I have helped you any and maybe even confused you, but I can't stress enough that if you are going to be your own teaher, create your own lessons, and don't be afraid to jump around with the wind on a whim, after all, you just might find something new that way.

One thing you might want to do that helped me a lot running the neck, is when you play a chord in the first position (say an E for example, but any chord) start playing (just the strings you are fingering) those same exact patterns up the neck, each chord pattern will make new chords as you go up the neck, which will lead you to thinking about scales. For instance that E Chod, played exactly up 1 fret becomes an F which played up exactly in the same patern 2 more frets becomes a G etc etc..

Every chord can be ran fro the first postion up the neck and will lead you to arppegios and scales based off that pattern.. you may find it a lot more fun and the learning a lot more quick if you think of each chord shape as a sort of bare chord and treat it as such.

Good luck!

[Nick]

Sing - either internally or externally. And then play the notes on the guitar.

And if you can't play it exactly you'll also play within your limitations AND learn a lot on the way

The advantage of that is that your solos will then tend to be based on the tune your playing rather than a series of shapes and techniques that make all the solos sound the same. The tune is a good starting place for a solo. And in the same way that you might phrase a song with a phrase and an answering phrase then decent functional solos often work with a similar structure. In it's simplest form playing the tune on an instrument works though is a little limited but has more sense than playing a blistering technical extravaganza which has nothing to do with the particular song.

There is an article HERE by a guitar player (who happened to write a favourite tune of mine) which makes a lot of sense to me. The article mostly relates to bluegrass and similar (and some stuff on jazz) but you may find it useful. He lives on the east coast somewhere. Fine mandolin player too and if you get a chance to listen to his music it's excellent. Along with his acoustic things he's also a big Alan Holdsworth fan so he is really quite diverse.

You didn't say what sort of music but in another thread you mentioned Bonnie Raitt who I think is a fine soloist. If you listen to a lot of the solos on her albums many of them are based closely on the tunes and work beautifully.

I saw an interview with Clapton years ago on the TV and the interviewer asked him what he did when he came up to solo and he pretty much said that he heard the tune of what he would play and would start there.

A friend of mine always pretty much plays the same way when they try to solo as they believe it's about "soloing". It unfortunately always comes out pretty much sounding the same as it has little to do with the underlying tune and more to do with a series of note clusters and tricks strung together without thought for what lies underneath or often even the genre he is playing in. It was much like when I was listening to someone recently murder the Ralph McTell song 'Clare to Here' - it would be hard to explain how you could treat that song the way this guy did. Chacun a son gout as they say in Sweden.

Edited November 3, 2008 by Nick

[JonathonHolder]

You can't just 'learn to play guitar', or even 'learn to solo'. You have to have something you actually want to learn. Could be traditional blues guitar, metal shredding, jazz, pop riffs, whatever. Pick something you want to learn, get a recording and work it out note by note. There is no secret, the trick is to get started; it doesn't matter where you start, as long as you start somewhere.

[Lazz]

Hi Donna.

I'm not sure I fully understand the question.

Are you talking skins or strings ?

How general/specific ?

I like Nick's suggestion.

Singing is fundamental to improvisation - which is what we expect in a solo, don't we ?

I can't count the number of great player who insist that if you can't sing it, you shouldn't be playing it.

Makes a lot of sense to me.

And yes, it MUST be related to the tune.

Otherwise - why is it happening ?

Is there a specific song you are preparing for ?

Or is it about general approaches ?

[Donna]

This sucks - I lost my original post (no worries Mon Capitaine, twas moi not yoi). Hey! Where IS Didier anyway, that French Connection? Off puddle jumping wiff Finn in Norway, I suppose. Or maybe - off to some seedy graveyard with Prometheus (sniff I miss ya man) and his singing band-mate.

Anyway, now I'll have to do shorthand, just overlook what may seem an abrupt tone. Believe-you-me gentlemen, I am tickled verily from the wealth of your answers! All I did was a-chop wood and mother these children last few days, and boy whatta night cap your replies is. Especially taking thy time and touting: SONG above all.

Lazz: guitar I'm talking. Nick and Lazz: sing the solo/riff, very good this is confirmation, it's how my mind works anyway. Max, your experience does help. I've done some of the expolratory stuff you mention, more stuff to glean here from your post. I do agree w/ your ideas about self-teaching. (And I do run scales).

Specifically, for this Dec 4 gig, I had wanted to do a BIT more guitar-wise. There'll be an interlude where I'm not drumming, 2 songs w/ Loo also on acoustic, me singing lead both, one cover, one original. On my tune I wanted to open up more. It may not be practical though - I'll know more once Mike and I actually play thru the thing.

But for the future, too, an overall approach. (And, there is an open mic I've been eyeing, coming up soon). Anyone remotely knowing my situation knows I lack musicians and mostly can only count on playing alone. Which should at some point, I think, include a little more interest/craft than strum -n- sing. I hate that! Unless necessary, as a beginner, etc; But not to aspire to! Unless artistry somehow demanded it. I cannot however think HOW, not as a a one-person soloist.

Don't misunderstand, not nec. saying playing lead "while" singing lead. Just that my attention shall be on 2 things.

Well, I'm looking foward to playing again and letting the meandering melodies in my head jumpoutbymagic; then, not be imidated but get thee sharpened (chewed on, whittled down by many children o' mine) pencil and write them notes.

That's as good as "Chevron 7 - LOCKED" - know what I mean? Once I write it down, it's pretty much there in memory for good.

Thanks again!

(PS: another good rehearsal, it's so good to know ONE instument anyway. Lazz, I think I should break the heads and the more, maybe, for the gig. Each rehearsal the drums/cymbals are increasingly screwed up worse, yet I play better each time this happens - and I've got the reahrsal tapes to prove it!)

[Lazz]

Thanks for the explication, DD.

There are formulae and patterns which others recommend for practice and vocabulary.

Tempted to recommend Jamey Aebersold - Volume 3 and Volume 42 might be useful to you. David Baker, too.

Should also be possible to borrow them from the library, photocopy the exercises you want and burn a copy of the CD.

But it's really hard to say - I think I really mean that they proved useful to me - so might not be for you at all.

This is one of those times when I would definitely recommend a teacher.

Someone who can actually tell and know where you are at, who you can tell where you want get to, and will help you on your way.

The right teacher can help where thread postings and web-sites can't.

And one good lesson should last you at least three months.

I can think of no-one in your neighbourhood immediately.

But I have friends who know and can find out if you want.

[Donna]

Lazz, yes, please find out.

The cover, I realized, must be done a whole step down. Meaning I'm avoiding the finger breaking as we spe - er um presently

taking a break from drilling chords I'm not well versed on. Yep, tis drills at this point. And yet another opportunity to grow.

So I began taking this breather by playing my tune, and I 'sang' a couple bits, picking them out on guitar. Making every note count,

putting soul into it. Lo and behold, other riffs began coming out as well. Comforting. Fun!

[Donna]

Gentlemen,

Also, I've looked at most of your links.

Nick, I get it...have done this variation (carefully thought out as the article says)

on the 8-parter song I've yet to record. Many versions/styles of that song, I like it so well I wanto do an EP of nothing but.

There's versions of sections and whole song, too in somba, folk, 80's dance, kind of hip-hop and Donna Dahl.

I love the idea of breaking small sections down, crafting a dif. but recognizeable version. I think that's a great way to

expand on guitar, to find those melodies/riffs to sing.

Oh Lazz that vol 3 and 42 look really good. What instrument (voice?) did you learn 'em on?

The Baker page totally reminds me of a jazz player I once knew well.

He recently passed away...I think of him and pray, ya know? That cat got to travel even to Asia w/ his community big band.

He used to sit in w/ Husker Du at First Avenue, and loved playing bari sax.

This man (John Clegg) didn't begin playing til he was 26 years old and ppl gave him a hard time for that.

Went out as a music teacher, full roster of past and present students, played with just excellent players cause he became one. Wow.

So he learned his ii v7 i's...

[Lazz]

Lazz, yes, please find out.

OK - I've sent a note but no responses yet.

Oh Lazz that vol 3 and 42 look really good. What instrument (voice?) did you learn 'em on?

I didn't actually learn 'em - not all those patterns - the articulation I found a tad impractical on my instrument - voice, yes. But I managed my own approximations of several reasonably successfully. For me (as well as most others, I think) the main benefit lies in the CDs: if you can't simply call up a rhythm section for playtime yet you really need to practice for tunes, then the Aebersold series gives you that opportunity. The rhythm section may not actually always the grooviest thing around, feel-wise, but they serve a good and useful purpose. Vol 3 gives you standard Major and minor turnarounds in all keys plus a couple of blues and a bebop tune - and you can just play-a-long to your heart's content. Vol 42 similarly lets you mess around on blues in every key,

Handy practice tools.

These old standbys have largely been replaced by Band-In-A-Box nowadays, though - more expensive (of course) but it would let you input any changes for the particular song you want to work on and practice over the top from there. I'm saving up for mine.

The Baker page totally reminds me of ... John Clegg... didn't begin playing til he was 26 years old

I did a class with Baker years back. Aebersold, too. They're real good at making sense of what other players are getting up to on a less conscious basis and helping to understand. I'll bet Clegg used their stuff.

[Lazz]

OK - I've sent a note but no responses yet.

Right then.

I am being e-mailed a couple of recommendations.

I will send them along as soon as I get 'em.

Should be decent - hope one of them is appropriate for what you nedd.

[Lazz]

Lazz, yes, please find out.

Alright.

Three neighbourhood guys have been recommended to me.

Look to your PM for details.

Good luck.

[Donna]

Lazz, pardon for no pm on the teacher recommendations yet (consider this to be it).

My word, but I think I know one of these teacher's students. Crazy! Thank you for doing my homework

I think vol 42 is where it's at for me...er...yeah. Blues. Love the idea of playing w/ the cd.

OK, it's been a week since those chord drills began, I see. I should be heartened. Have gotten from about

minus 38 on the metronome to about 66. That's for the cover song, the unfamilar chords.

Found out today Mike won't be playing guitars w/ me, he'll be on piano. Let's just keep upping the anty, no

fair. I don't like the thought of me out front alone. But I guess providence does.

It's just...hitting me finally, that there'll be an audience of hundreds and I've only played

out several tunes, and that was about 15 months ago.

Well, tomorrow I'll go shopping for slippers and parmesan! That'll give the correct perspective.

[Donna]

Hey All,

Just wanted to update that we dropped the cover, and Loo is playing piano on my tune w/ the ripe observation that

I hold back to meet him half-way in this new flavor-of-a-tune HE has created by putting those talented

fingers to the keyboard.

translation: riffs won't apply for the gig this week - plus it'll be enough to sing it. Quality before fumbling

This is from my blog tonight, so I'm getting other views and it's good:

After the cares of the day, seeing John Denver's smiling face [via TV] was lovely. Seeing him singing w/ others.

His sound was fine and rounded, not a thing missing playing solo, usually only strumming.