Promoting Your Music On The Web

[john]

7 hours ago, fasstrack said:

HIRE someone, and pay them well and even look the other way as they steal, long as I'm making it financially. That set up would add years to my life. I'm a decent businessman as far as knowing my worth and insisting on a minimum amount and I've gotten myself gigs through the years (or they got me). But even thinking about how distasteful self-promotion is for me makes me ill.

 

Let someone who's thing that is do it and pay 'em...

Focus on building a group of people who you can talk to about your music because THEY are interested.

 

If you believe your music is any good, then surely you believe that there are people out there who are very interested in the kind of music you make....

 

it’s just that so far, you haven’t been great at finding them, contacting them or communicating with them.

 

Mostly, you (and most artists, for that matter) engage with semi-interested to barely-interested people, only to be disappointed by their lack of response.

 

The point is: the feeling of pimping out your music, pushing it on people, being uncomfortable talking about your music is a chronic symptom of promoting to the wrong people.

 

Promoting to the right people becomes a pleasure, because they are waiting for your message, interested in what you say, and importantly, passionate about what you play.

 

Mixing up who you are talking to AND why you are talking to them is a very common issue.

[john]

5 hours ago, fasstrack said:

John: You're a great guy. Please do it your way and let me do it my way. I'll pay someone (who could be YOU----step right up). Already said that. No offense intended. I'm 66; play jazz and any kind of good pop melodies---and, after all this time and work, damn well and 'con alma'---with soul; compose anything but extended classical pieces or hip hop---which I wouldn't touch with an 11-foot pole.

 

Once again: live music or radio interviews once I or whoever's with me has performed---those are how I 'promote'. Hear it, like it, buy it. Period. I dodge the herd, not follow it. That's the way it is---for me. Others? Take your pick and salud! I'm with y'all every step of the way---if you're GOOD, that is. Being a decent human is a nice plus. If there weren't both on this site I'd have tipped out long ago.

 

I have never doubted for a millisecond your sincere desire and hard work in trying to provide info to help us all. If songstuff sets up promotion and hustles my wares I'll pay a fee for that gladly.

 

I really am done with restating my feelings about the digital (fill-in-your-own-word). Reason: It's BORING after 2 or 3 times, and I'm not about boring people or myself (I know I'm people---just checked, and damned if my thumbs aren't opposable!) Everyone here knows how I feel and what I will and won't do. I ask you to please respect that---if only to test the maxim that 'it takes all kinds'. I LIKE my 'kind' and have no plans to ever change. And I wish everyone here success with THEIR chosen path.

 

There, that was magnanimous, I hope.

 

THE END...

Joel, oh magnanimous one....

 

You responded to my topic titled “Promoting Your Music On The Web”, advising other people to hire someone to promote their music, highlighting how distasteful promoting made you feel.

 

Your post quoted me, but it was not strictly for me, it was largely for others reading this topic. My reply was at least partly in that same vein as the feeling of distaste is not something unique to you.

 

For the record, I never mentioned digital or otherwise in that previous post (though I did in the original posts when talking of tools). The post you responded to by suggesting to others to just hire someone... a perfectly valid suggestion but then I think I am entitled to counter the negatives you raise, if only because they can have an effect others.

 

Were this topic yours and titled “Hire people to promote your music and don’t even try to persuade me otherwise, I don’t want to know” then you might well be completely within your rights to respond to me like I am the snake whispering to Eve about the apple or a pusher selling a drug.

 

Mailing lists were around waaaaay pre-internet. Still I respect that you don’t want to use them, so I didn’t mention them. Nor in my response did I mention any specific tools. I tried to address the feeling of distaste as being about talking to the right people, and to a degree talking to them in the right way, so that it is not a sales pitch because it is the pitch that mostly makes it feel like self-promotion.

 

Incidentally, talking to the right people speaks as much to the live gigs you book, the radio shows you appear on as it does to any other part of communicating with fans. It’s about fishing where the fish you want to catch actually swim. If you already do this quite successfully, I will highlight that my response was not just for you. Either way it is for all the ways you put your music and your message in front of an audience.

 

The biggest change in the tatters of what is left of the music industry? The switch from relying on others to self-reliance. That’s not entirely accurate. Larger labels and publishers now represent far far fewer artists. However, various aspects of what they do are more widely available to artists as services, from marketing and promotion to pr, publicity, booking, administration etc.

 

The issue there is that many of those services require up-front flat fees, or a payment scheme with that as a significant component. They are not interested in taking a punt with a royalty or percentage. This is VERY true for marketing, promotion, pr etc. For cash-strapped musos. That leaves two options: do it yourself or don’t do it at all. If you choose the latter option there are of course consequences, no choice is consequence free.

 

You can of course break up the marketing, promotion and pr tasks as a DIY. That can be done at different levels. You generally pay a mixture of cash and your own time and effort. Commonly the best option is pay for close to what you use, but it is up front.... and the lessons in talking to the right audience in the right way.

 

As far as paying others to do stuff for you goes, beyond them taking preprepared marketing messages and mailing them out to their own unqualified mailing list costing you about $50 - $500 for the single shot privilege, you are talking up front fees in the region of $300 - $600 for help preparing a single mail out message and sending it, to $3000 per month as a rolling budget for more encompassing tour support. Human bums on seats... cost.

 

I don’t set the rules, Joel. In many ways I don’t like playing by them and where I don’t have to, I frequently don’t. Others, I simply have no choice. I either pay, or I don’t get.

 

By all means, keep doing what you do in the way you do it. But the world has changed around us all. We all either adapt or we don’t. You have every right to say that is what you do and why you do it that way...
 

However, and I say this with no hint of animosity and with the best will in the world, please don’t tell me off for responding kindly to a post that advises contrary to the entire premise of the topic, while at the same time raising new restrictions and perspectives others may well experience, as if I am personally badgering you (however nicely) to follow my proposed solution. You raised questions in my topic by offering alternative advice. I responded with reasonable consideration of the points raised.

 

I absolutely welcome you to the debate, Joel. You have genuine issues and perspectives that should be discussed. You are, however, not the only one who will feel that way.

[john]

Ps, who is dismissing you as a bitter curmudgeon?

[john]

4 hours ago, VoiceEx said:

Id hate to interrupt this interesting debate between you two, John, Joel. Honestly its an interesting read, and I might throw in my own two cents as well, at some point. However, for now I would like to add something to the topic itself.

 

This might be a bit of an unorthodox approach, but in terms of promotion, I would strongly recommend considering to approach Indie content creators (of all varieties). For example, There are a lot of creative people out there which focus on film and video presentations. Artists which would be more than glad to have a sit down with an actual musician.

 

Many content creators struggle with the placement of intellectual properties, often having to resort to low quality samples and so called "free-music" samples for everything. For a musician or sound engineer this is not a problem because we make our own music and create our own samples. But when it comes to people who are into video editing and such, this is an area they fall short in, having to resort to using crappy free samples and even crappier free music. They do this to avoid copyright claim issues. For people like those, a willing musician is a gold mine. And so are they, for the musician himself. An mutually beneficial arrangement can be made. Doing this also opens your music up to a none-music related audience. For example, lets say you helped or worked with someone who focuses on uploading content that's related to video games. That`s a huge pool of potential fans and buyers, not to mention, it also serves a way to play around Youtubes algorithm (as in, pushing your content in places and search result you wouldn't normally get featured). Just an idea of course.

Another great example of coming together. It’s a solution for actors/dancers/designers/artists etc. In one of our articles about videos and engagement I suggested reaching out to colleges and universities to find videographers/actors/dancers/stylists/designers etc. It is not problem free, but a little thought up front to how you interview potential collaborators and the terms of the deal can save you a lot of pain in the long run.

[Mahesh]

8 hours ago, VoiceEx said:

In other words: most musicians are the average Joe. Which means they always need work. These potential digital avenues I am suggesting are alot more practical than people think.

 

Agree with this totally. There are a lot of people out there who are in the same boat as the rest of us. And I think it is not only with musicians but with other kinds of artists as well. When the budget is small and returns shaky, working together can be the best solution to keep moving further. It allows for us to hone the skills we may be lacking in but will be needing on the journey. For example, I learnt how to edit videos, colour correct and colour grade it to completion because of my cinematographer friends who've worked with me for years now. I wouldn't consider myself great at it but I know enough to communicate with another professional in that field what I'm looking for. My friends on the other hand have gone to make music videos as paid projects for other indie acts. Growing together with nothing much led us on different paths that serves us even today. 

 

It may seem daunting to find the right people at the beginning. But I think it's merely the hammering the moulds the sword into shape. The more I put myself out there, the more my confidence increased and my networks expanded. Trust me, I still struggle to earn a decent living out of music but I've been able to continue to do what I do because of the people I've had the fortune of working with!

 

 

[john]

3 hours ago, fasstrack said:

I would pay a young, Web-savvy person to promote my music on the web.

Fair enough. You are paying someone a commission without a flat fee. What I said above was pretty well that the PR companies / Publicists who provide that same service to musicians, promoting their music and developing their brand, work primarily on a flat fee basis. You can of course find individuals who will do PR work on a commission basis, but it’s not that straightforward because you need to agree exactly what they get a percentage of and they may well want to see evidence of how their percentage has been determined. Even when done carefully it can easily spark arguments and distrust. The trouble I find is not in getting people for such things, but keeping them, and maintaining a good relationship with them. Commission-only sounds great, but it doesn’t easily breed contentment or stable relationships.
 

Still, it is possible. Good luck with it!

 

I don’t know where you get “pay to play” from my posts Joel. It exists, but it was not something I was suggesting or advocating. Anywhere. Any time. Perhaps you misunderstood what I was saying about playing by the rules and sometimes you have to pay a flat fee for services or you simply don’t get access to the service? I was simply saying some aspects of the music biz run happily on commission or royalty, quite happily while others are traditionally based on flat fees. Some work on a mix of the two, and the combination is often determined by who you are as the artist, where you are in your career, and your prospects for making money. Modern music producers, for example, want flat fees if you are an unknown with no track record or you have a poor track record. If you have a big budget and a large pending campaign, a commission is more tempting and meaningful. Event Promoters often get a mix of flat fee and a net commission on ticket sales, but the venue pays them, not you.

 

A street team or online street team is a bit different, and may be more of what you are looking for. They do a variety of promotion tasks and can be a great asset. They are often either fans or interns (people trying to get into the music biz working for free, commission or reward/prizes). I find that Street Teams work best with set, short term goals and rewards. An element of competition is also useful.

 

For example: a basic commission based on tickets sold, plus... if they were selling tickets/merch directly or they had a tracking code for links that could be used to determine where sales came from, you can offer a reward to the person whose efforts lead to the most sales. Or as a blanket, “If we reach X sales, you all get Y as a reward”

 

The rest of the what you are talking about is interesting but a very different topic from web marketing and promotion.

 

To me, this is all blue collar, meat and potatoes, making a living stuff, practicalities and reality... nothing to do with fame. How big business works can be interesting where it teaches us lessons, but beyond that it’s often a distraction. Making money on the “web thing” isn’t a collar thing, it’s an age thing. Kids do it like breathing. Old timers feel excluded. Another interesting but different debate! 
 

Growing your fanbase is just being an artist, with a plan. One foot in front of the other. Something being new, or new to you is about not knowing and it is a challenge for learning... that’s it.
 

Commission only hiring is very possible but it can be making a rod for your own back if you are not careful. It is not uncommon in sales though it is not always the best fit when all is considered. So much depends on situation, aims and the people involved 

 

One option not yet mentioned, collaboration (formal or informal) for marketing and promotion. Most of us have skills or assets to trade. Also, not without it’s problems, but it can be an important part of any artist’s strategy.
 

I think we can all agree to leave the dodgy deals, sharp trading and lies to the sharks. Understanding them is about avoiding them, not emulating them.

[john]

1 hour ago, fasstrack said:

Well, I got confused when you wrote 'pay'. It's been on my mind b/c a friend who talks a little too much ran his mouth about a mutual friend, a singer who's a genuine talent and just a good egg. He used that exact phrase, 'pay to play' about her---explaining that she paid this one and that one for a career. I politely told him I didn't want to hear it---ya know, just normal sticking up for a friend. If pissed me off too, b/c now I have his mean accusations (which, sadly, may be true) in my head when I see or talk to her. People and their big mouths!

 

Also, I do remember a conversation on one of these threads, another John 'n' Joel special, where for my part I was venting (ME VENT?! Impossible!) about a NY jazz scene club owner who charged kids for spots at his club---an uber-drag, just taking advantage in a vulture-like way of their young, eager and fervent desire to have a performance in his club on their resume. Since he also has done me dirt and I had recently rejoined the union back in the Mango I started to rat him out to an official I knew there---but reconsidered b/c I'd be hurting fellow musicians if they shut him down. (They couldn't do squat to him anyway---local 802 is a toothless joke except for maybe Broadway pit players or the circus. Even their B'dw'y clout is no more: they recently lost a high-profile battle over taped music in one show. They have become a feckless bad joke, but once were a real force) So Caped Crusader Fass was just spinning his cape again (my T-shirt, with an enormous J---for Justice, not Joel---is way cool, though, and every Halloween....). I thought I remembered you saying they were doing similar things where you hail from. Sorry if I got it wrong. When you said 'pay' I sort of jumped to conclusions.

 

B/c it IS common practice... 

 

Oh they tried pay to play... I’ve never done it and never would. I paid in hours of practice, hard work, passion.... pay to play here was venues squeezing the life out of musicians, taking advantage of their desperation to be famous. It’s been a long, long time since I had the remotest of interest in fame (think I was 19?), but I resent the implications of Pay to play. It’s like getting a plumber to fit a new kitchen and bathroom and then expecting him to give me money... and when he complains, saying “but think of the exposure” lol

 

No chance.

[Mahesh]

On 11/26/2020 at 9:07 PM, fasstrack said:

And I agree with everything you said. Hear, hear.

 

Well, just ONE slight deviation: I stopped worrying about fame too. But not AT 19, ON the 19th (of this month).

 

What in the sam hill has gotten into me?...

 

 

You know Joel, that's quite the profound thing!

 

I started with dreams of fame and success at 17 and dragged it for a while. I even had a game plan for age 20 thru 30. lmfao Oh boy did reality turn out to be different! Music has taken such an independent place in my life especially after I quit my IT job to do this full time. I've grown since then. There were times when the little attention I did get served me no good because of the way I placed it in my life situation. Besides, the struggle to pay the bills and the college debts even today makes sure gravity stays heavy on the body lmao

 

But weirdly enough, these days, whatever attention does come,  I see it as nothing personal. I do see it as a great way to  learn how to stay true to my purpose and character while trying to reach out to as large an audience with my music journey.

 

Don't mind me rambling! I could have just said "I feel ya brother!" to make the same point