Songwriting Critique

[john]

Hey

Everyone has a different expectation of the critique process. I thought it would be a good idea to discuss critique, what it is, what it means to you, what you look for or don't look for when giving or receiving a critique, how detailed it should be, how critical it should be, what are the most important things, is it important that you receive or give a pat on the back, how do you deal with the fine line between immediate confidence and the need to learn?

I'd love to hear your opinions...

For example, I notice a big difference in expectation. A difference in the detail level of analysis and responses, and in fact a willingness to tackle the lyric head on without taking it personally or as a big dent in confidence.

Cheers

John

[Lazz]

what you look for or don't look for when giving or receiving a critique, how detailed it should be, how critical it should be, what are the most important things, is it important that you receive or give a pat on the back, how do you deal with the fine line between immediate confidence and the need to learn?

Tough one, guv'.

Sometimes people pass their work through here and it's of a kind where all I want to say is "Yeah!" and give words of support and encouragement.

That can definitely be important - maybe Thomas and Alistair are apposite examples of this - where they are getting out there and doing it - that's the main thing of any importance.

But a 'critique', man - phew ! that's work

So I am trying these days to be more attentive to whether and at what point my butting in on someone else's process stands a chance of offering any value.

Otherwise it's a huge waste of time and energy in both directions.

It's nice to be able to build up some impression of where a person is at in order to figure whether my input might carry relevance.

And to make an assessment of whether their sensitivities are too delicate to hear any gobbetts of Lazz-crap.

.

[john]

hey

thanks for replying guys.

I try to be balanced in my approach, and like you I do try to work out what level of input the reviewee would like, but I do tend to get too detailed for most people, and I think that can come across as unnecessarily harsh, particularly to people who are not used to critique or even simple opinions being offered on their work.

it can be difficult offering crit. It's almost impossible to be constructive without in some way also being destructive. It's easy to forget that many writers have not had and are not used to a spotlight being shone upon their work. Similarly, I am aware that simply by being detailed it can come across as picky, and that in part depends on genre and the expectations writers for different genres can have of their work, what function the lyrics or music form for that particular piece.

Probably the biggest mistake i have made and do make is to assume that people post up work looking for advice on how to improve their work, when in fact i think most people are looking for simple encouragement.

To all those I may have offended i can only offer apologies for my approach. I'm human, trying to help and woefully inadequate at judging the needs of different people.

One thing I do not want to give the impression of (an I think fail miserably at) is that what i am offering is an absolute... I am right, you are wrong etc. To be honest my attention to such detail waxes and wanes with available time.

In reading your post Tom I was thinking "I do that, feck I do that too" lol Ok I try to do it diplomatically or in a way that i hope elicits a positive response but all too often i think i put people off rather than encourage them. As it is on a board, even when the original poster responds well, takes it on board etc, other posters are looking at the comments and finding them harsh, over detailed and hyper critical, and it puts them off!

So all in all I don't review much now. lol A pity because I quite enjoy doing critique, when you engage with the writer and truly discuss the merits of one approach over another without it being offensive or harsh it can be great and a fascinating voyage. But alas that is not for everyone...

Cheers

John

[ThoughtMonster]

Great discussion.

Critiques I've received in the past have been too consistently soft and encouraging. Since then I've taken some strange artistic directions that will probably call for more specialized critics. Overall, I've had better luck measuring myself against composers, songwriters, authors, and artists from other disciplines—my heroes. I also seek new perspectives by reading, watching classes, listening to lectures, and so on. It's a boon.

When I do seek an outside perspective, usually it's because I want to make sure that a particular image or idea is actually getting across to the listener. Sometimes it's easy to accidentally leave out a crucial, small detail that leaves your audience baffled about what's happening in the narrative.

I do enjoy critiquing others, because it offers a chance to climb inside of another person's song for mutual benefit. There are myriad different ideas about songwriting as an art, and then there are all the differences in life experience, techniques learned, genres preferred... every songwriter's got unique sensibilities. Tunesmith's comment stands out for me here: it's important not to think exactly as though the object of critique is your own work. They're writing their song, not yours, so you've got to be somewhat sensitive to the context of what they've written.

As a teacher, I work to understand a wide array of perspectives and approaches; that way I avoid subconsciously trying to turn my students into clones of myself. As a student, I try to analyze different voices, new methods, new perspectives on the art. Critique improves me on both fronts, and allows someone else to potentially benefit also.

Oh, and if a person is more obviously at a beginning stage of the process, I may recommend them some reading. Certainly I get more specific relative to how impressed I am by the craft behind the song.

[LarryByrd]

I suck at givin critique. But I love getting, and I can really just say what I want when I post. If it's all encouraging it's not a constructive critique. Give me negative critique that I can grow on it. I won't grow on "yeah you did good". But then again if I did good, of course I want to hear that to.

I love it when people that has serious experience tell me that I did a technical failure, like the scan is not right, or the language is wrong. Because that's the most constructive kind of critisism. When people tell me they didn't get the message, I go into the lyrics, and try to find out if I want to make it more understandable, though sometimes its supposed to be hard to get... To a certain point.

My point is that there is no use in asking for critisism if you don't want something to work on. No one gains anything from plain encouragement. And I know I don't want encouragement if I havn't earned it.

That said, I don't expect anything when I post. I know I'm not good at giving critiques away, so then I can't expect anything back. But I try to say my views of it.

[john]

Hey

Some good replies I'll come back to in detail, but for now I thought this would perhaps help with judging the capabilities and sensitivities of members:

http://forums.songstuff.com/topic/14811-attention-profile-enhancement/

In particular the "Critique" section.

Cheers

John