Signed Vs Independant

[JamTimeMusic]

Hey guys and gals,

With the increase of internet outlets for indie music is it really still worth while getting signed? What can a label give you that you can't do yourself?

I ask because I intend to release my bands album later this year and I have very high hopes that it will be a quality album.

Once the album is done we intend to work hard on the gigging and internet scene etc etc. Ok it might take a lot of time to get known but being our own bosses and earning maximum income really appeals to me.

I want to plan our band as if it were a business so I want to know is it worth trying to get signed? What do you even get from a label?

My biggest question is how do you get music on the radio? Why is it that the labels control that area? I'm guessing purely because of money?

I think my concern is just how much money would you actualy make if you got signed these days? Some big named artists are moving over to the independent scenes because they can earn more independently with fewer sales.

Lots of questions I know.

JD

[Orrin]

I agree with you. My focus is definitely not on getting signed. I think there are enough resources out there to make the independent route seem very attractive. I'm going to be trying my best to support myself independently (although music won't be my only potential source of income) and if a label wants to get involved with me, they are going to have to offer me something attractive.

I think the signed option presents the chance of exploding on to the international scene because of the increased marketing power but those are the long, long odds. The unsigned route is probably slower and requires more diligence but all of that work is cumulative and has the potential to pay off in the long run.

[john]

Hey

Many people within the main stream music industry now recommend new bands to develop themselves as indie artists rather than going the route of signing to a label. At least for the early part of a band career.

It makes complete sense for both the artist AND the labels. If you go the route of labels at some later point you come to them with a ready made fanbase.

One word of warning on that aspect: Any songs you release independently are likely NOT to be released by the label. The reason is simple. When you first release a new song there is a huge peak in sales. Fans want something new. As a result, all your indie releases will not have that peak. Or at least the peak will be a lot less.

It's not all roses in the indie garden though. The internet has levelled the playing field, so much so that it's been a double edged sword. There are now so many bands and artists out there, all fighting for attention, wanting to be noticed that it's difficult to be seen in the crowd never mind stand out. It takes a lot of money, giving up any other sort of life for years or both. Yes you have access to tools (though many are crap) to help you, but then, so does everyone else.

It's not just bands and solo artists either. It's everyone who picked up a guitar, plugged it in for the first time and recorded it and posted it on the web (watch me play smoke on the water! ), kids playing guitar on their playstation, girls singing along with a karioki recording, software written songs with auomatic autotune created with standard rythms and loops they personally selected when they hit the "create a song button"... and yes we've had members in all of those categories. Fair play to them, we all started as musicians somewhere... the point is that there are millions and millions of them. All screaming "see me", "Hear me". Oh yes, and then there's the generic attention whores who demand your time to watch them do things that leave you thinking "That's 5 minutes of my life I won't get back".

So yes, Indie is the choice to go for, but it leaves musicians with a bitter pill to swallow. The thing is, I haven't even mentioned the bitter pill yet!

What is it?

Simple. If you want to even have a chance at succeeding in this YOU HAVE TO LEARN ABOUT THE BUSINESS SIDE OF MUSIC!

Not only that, but you have to wash down the bitter pill with a lot of work, on and offline. That means developing skills, creating plans, being coordinated, understanding contracts and music law, marketing and promotion... the list goes on.

If only there was some online place where you could learn all of the above. *coughs*

If only. *cough cough*

One can but dream....

Unless of course you have the balls to make it reality.

[Yodelgoat]

Too many people have unrealistic expectations about getting rich in todays music environment - or to even break even. Exceptional music will always be appreciated, but it will not always make money. Think of your favorite song - chances are, the person who wrote it didnt make any money on it - or very little money. If that song is under 10 years old, chances are, they lost their shirt on it. Doesnt mean they regret they ever wrote it, but you have to approach the business of music with your feet firmly on terra-firma. There is more great music than there are buyers.

I wanted to append this post because I have some pretty strong I deas about how labels are surviving in the age of downloads and dwindling CD sales. A label always considers its own survival as being superior to the survival of its artists - its obvious, without them, you are nothing, so, the will do whatever it takes to stay in business. Remeber that they will always pay themselves before they pay you what they have agreed to pay you. If you were on a typical small to mid sized label, you will likely see "expenses" increase as your CD sales increase - just enough to keep them from having to send you a check. You are at their mercy as far as reporting sales. My label also sells my CD in electronic format - funny, how Ive never seen a single electronic sale on my Quarterly report, though I've sold over a thousand CD units. the math just simply indicates that the label is pocketing the digital sales and not reporting them to me. electronic sales account for about 20 percent of all sales and having zero electronic sales and over 1000 units sold simply makes no sense whatsoever.

This may not be the case with all labels. The sad reality is, I think my label is pretty typical. They simply do not believe our contract is enforceable from my end. I have to request my quarterly reports - usually several times, before they are sent. This year I have only seen one. After multiple complaints I have determined that I just need to move on and not bother with them any more. Every label will pay itself before it pays you, and then somehow the books always reflect enough expenses that you still owe them. I'm not stupid, I can tell when I've been owned.

The rule I will live by is that an agreement or contract is only as good as the person you make the agreement with. Trying to enforce a contract using the force of law is simply not feasable unless you have more money than you know what to do with. Labels arent going to do more than they are forced to do. Thats general music business knowledge. My label would defend itself by saying " you made the agreement, We were assuming you are a grown up and knew what you were getting into" - I was strongly encouraged not to sign, but just continue on my own, but I thought: " Unless I try, I will always wonder what could have been" So I went for it. I've lost around 10k. I'm past the point of complaining - its just a fact now. Please, dont get tied up with a label unless they are sharing in your sacrifice ( with money up front, or putting up manufacturing costs). My label has, and is still making money off my CD. I havent, nor do I expect to anymore. My sales could be higher than have been reported. I will never know. You are much better off with 850 CD's in your own basement, than 4000 in someone elses.

Edited December 8, 2011 by Yodelgoat

[magesward]

Hmmm, this is a difficult subject, and I wonder if there really is one answer. I think both routes are valid - if you do it right. There are people out there that make money off of their own music that they publish themselves. Toby Turner is one example - technically he is a viral video marketer, but he often writes music on his own and publishes it on his youtube page. For a guy that has over 1 million subscribers, he makes money through the youtube partner program (which is actually revenue sharing from people clicking on ads placed on the video page. Not directly through the music but the music draws people to the page.) and his music is also available on Itunes. You can also buy t shirts form him, featuring something from a song he wrote (like his "Safety Torch" shirts or "I'm A Bird" shirts.)

[pezwinter]

Check out this competition (Unsigned Only) currently underway from the team that heads the International Songwriting Competition (ISC).

Unsigned Only is a unique international music competition designed for artists who are not signed to a major label record company or any of its affiliates, subsidiaries, or imprints.

Best of Luck!

Pez

http://www.unsignedonly.com

[Retrosaurus Rex]

You're quite secretive about the fees to enter that contest, Pez.

[TheBrewer]

It's 30$ per song, which is really expensive...

[Prometheus]

You will not make money unless you sign with a major label or publisher.

All the major labels are good for these days is producing very poor reality television shows and releasing badly produced, anti-artistic and anti-intellectual rubbish.

Indie music is a waste.

To paraphrase a quote by Richard Dawkins, and hopefully my use of the vernacular will be excused.

Music as a creative artform is important, and anyone who doesn't agree can f*ck off.

[jnslawoffices]

A lot of good points already made above.. I don't want to beat a dead horse and add more about the major label debate.

I want to propose an option that hasn't been addressed much already, at least not directly - independent labels! Forming a relationship with the right indie label can be a great middle ground. First, independent labels often have some of the resources of major labels. I'm not talking huge advances or video budgets (which, honestly, are pretty rare even in major label land, unless you're a big name), but independent labels often are distributed through major labels. Independent labels often have strong relationships with radio stations and may be able to get you even better press because of established 'cred,' especially with online magazines and blogs. Independent labels may also offer some things that majors won't - such as approaching the deal as a joint venture rather than traditional label deal. Or not demanding 360 rights when they know they can't properly administrate and develop them. These points aren't true with all indie labels, but I know many where it does hold true. Not all indie labels are saints, but my experience is that they often fight for their artists and invest in the longevity of their artists' careers more than majors seem to be doing these days.

[Disclaimer: I am a New York licensed attorney. The information contained here is not legal advice and reading this post does not create an attorney-client privilege. You should consult with an attorney directly if you need legal advice.]

[panaka]

Major labels aren't terribly helpful anymore, not only do you have a slim chance of being signed, but you are also very unlikely to make money with them if you are.

Your best bets are either finding an indie label, going completely independent, or finding a form of artist management.

Indie music is a waste. You will not make money unless you sign with a major label or publisher.

This is just wrong. This is my third year with my solo project, and last year I personally made over $10K with music. Its not a living, but its alot more than other people are doing.

What I would do is if you don't have any experience with marketing and such, find an artist label. They often cost nothing up front, and they take a manager's percentage, but the down side is you normally have to be accepted. The one I used was EvolvingPoet (www.evolvingpoet.com). They took 18% of profits but they provided me with distribution, a marketing plan, help setting up social networks, help promoting those networks, mixed my music for me, helped with college radio campaigns, and best of all, they treated me like I was actually something to be valued (whereas a lot places kinda treat you like disposable meat.)

An awesome company I use now that I know a bunch about marketing and stuff is AWAL (awal.com). They will distribute your music for free to all major online retailers, but they take a 15% cut of your profits.

Also, as for the radio, chances are you won't make it onto a lot of the airwaves. You have to target places that will specifically allow indie music, such as college radio or stations that have a "local" hour and such.

Hope this helps!

[john]

I have to agree with panaka... you can make money as an indie musician / writer, the way of working is not disimilar even if the tools have changed. Where I think indie artists don't make money is when they are using yesterday's techniques and processes. Beating your head against a wall is not a pleasant sensation.

What I see is that often artists sign up for a service and... that's it. Maybe a little forum posting and strangely enough their music release goes nowhere. lol

If you want to be an indie band these days you definitely have to get your hands dirty, at least until you get enough success to be able to pay someone else to do it! The fact is there are LOTS of techniques, lots of services that can be used to maximize returns. An entire release process, soooo many promo channels (some waaay better than others) and back end tools and processes, in essence a structured marketing and promotion campaign.. all are needed. Of course great music makes it easier to convert people into fans... but they have to hear it first.

[Brandon Butler]

Both are valid paths.  But don't put all your energy into getting signed. Act like you will never get signed and do everything in your power to promote your music - mainly touring and social media.  If you do it right, you can succeed without signing.   But when/if you get signed, guess what? You STILL act like you never got signed and do everything in your power to promote your music - mainly touring and social media. Why?

 

Most labels are nothing more than banks these days.  But banks can be useful. The only thing they are going to do is lend you some money to record, make a video, photo shoots, MAYBE a tour. And they want that money back. 

 

So unless you are the next big thing they will not throw money at you or give you promotional support like ad campaigns and the like. They want you to do all that, which goes back to my advice in the first paragraph.   

 

I know from whence I speak because I am signed and I didn't follow my own advice.  

[chased]

Indie music is a waste. You will not make money unless you sign with a major label or publisher.

 

Can't agree with this, even though I understand the sentiment. There are many, many, many examples of nobodies who have become somebodies overnight due to the right song/video - Gotye was self-produced and won a Grammy!

 

Just read and study and listen to others, and keep writing better and better songs. Believe. Practise. Back yourself. And think how much money do you need to make from this? The major bucks are made by the Madonnas and AC/DCs anyway, artists in their 50s. It takes endurance, talent and a s**tload of luck. But if you can't buy a yacht after your indie efforts is it a waste? Refer to my quote below:

[SethJackson]

Personally, I know nothing of major labels other than to avoid them! However, despite my distaste for them, I spoke with Blasko (bassist for Ozzy Osbourne), and he had some good points.

 

First, a band must have leverage in the industry. As John was discussing, a musician needs to understand the business and economics of what they are doing, AND then need to put it into action.

 

A band that can be profitable first is the one that labels want. The more successful a band, the more leverage they can have when negotiating a contract. (A band with no leverage is going to get screwed!)

 

This concept of leverage applies across the board. If you can sell out a venue, you can negotiate a larger cut of ticket sales. If your music videos go viral, businesses will want to sponsor you.

 

Furthermore, Blasko says that major labels are good for one thing: writing a big check. If you need $10,000 for a top notch music video and another $10,000 for an excellent studio and producer, a major label can give you that money....(though that might be the only money you'll ever see)

[TomT]

Well, I'm new to all this and I think what I'm going to do for the time being is pretty old-school but effective.  I'm going with word-of-mouth. 

 

I like people.  I like to know what makes them tick.  I'll play a gig but afterwards when people want to talk to me, I'll talk right back and find out who they are, ya know? It works with anyone.  If you find yourself locked in a conversation with someone you don't care for....well....it's not as if you have to take `em home with you, right? I also make it a point to remember names in case I'm ever back again.  It gets easier with practice.

 

Anyway, the hell with depending on the web.  I'll post my whereabouts on Facebook and Reverbnation (<shameless self-promotion and web usage:) and down the road I'll have a simple webpage and so on but the truest form of generating a fan base as an independent performer that I'm not totally allergic to is gig-by-gig. 

 

Take an interest in your audience, guys. It costs nothing.

[john]

Something I should have mentioned earlier: budget, tools, contacts, hard work, even a great song might all be very important, but huge parts of success in music are strategy and tactics. It has always been that way. Old industry or new industry you need ways to exploit the resources available to you effectively.

For example, part of your overall strategy may well include social media, but without using the right tactics for the right tools it is going to be very difficult to take your music forward. In yesterday's music industry that part was filled in by music business professionals, and in the current mainstream it still is.

Indie labels can help you step over some major hurdles (if they are any good at what they do) but you are in a position these days that with some core techniques and some creativity you can go a long way without any external label... indie or major.

Doing a deal or doing it yourself you still need strategy and tactics. You still need to understand how the current industry works. You still need to work damn hard. You need to research. You still need to be creative with all of those and more.

If you wont do all that, and wont learn, then get used to playing in your bedroom or local bar. You'll be there a loooong time!

Equally if you dont learn and take an interest in all that... other artists will. Meanwhile if you do by accident land a deal or otherwise get someone else to do the hardwork, then prepare to join a very long line of musicians and bands that never made enough on their music to make it a serious contender to pay their bills. I dont doubt giving up playing full time after years of effort and time and money because you need to get out of loads more debt than you started with is not exactly satisfactory. Life is to short for regrets.

In the words of that great sage Yoda "There is no try. Only do and do not".

[Scott Levine]

I think it depends on if you are up to do business work and the genre.    Some musicians don't like to deal with the business side and just want to be creative.  if you are up for doing the work though, you might be better off by yourself.  This is where ethe genre comes into play though because if you are a pop artist and you think you can sell a lot if promoted right, then you might be better ewith a label especially a major one because they have that power to get you good widespread marketing.  If you in a genre though that is not as popular, niche marketing might be better than widespread because there is a good chance you may get more fans by promoting yourself to only your niche because those are fans who like your style of music.  With widespread marketing, yes it's good that you are reaching out to a lot of people, but a lot of people may not care.

[john]

For indies now there really is no such thing as not dealing with the biz side. You simply have to engage. Probably just as important to understand and engage if you get signed. Seriously, you might not like the biz side but in the modern age it isn't an option, unless you want a very short, frustrating career.

[FMU]

I look at the whole situation and the thing is that for the most part, the road you have to take to get signed is very very very similar to the road you have to take to become independent, to some degree, as that road continues there will be major differences but as you start your band or what have you your really going to be doing the same shit either way and the only difference is that rather then the label having a cut of your profit, you can reinvest back into yourself, however those labels to have some tools that we just don't have access to plain and simple.

 

If you could negotiate some sort of contract for like 1 year or 1 album or something and then go independent i think that would be the most prime situation you could get yourself into. People often forget, labels aren't signing you because they love your music, they are a business just like any other business, they need cash money to stay alive..

 

The days of getting a lump sum of money for your signature are over, any money that does trade hands will be traded with the expectation of it being used for the album and you more than likely won't even have access to it other wise, if your signed.