Bored with todays repeating "drumtracks"

[Guest]

Hi, guyz!

I for one cannot hide the boredom presented to me in new music, using the "machine drumz"..... BLAAAHHH!!!!

Those ever-repeating DRUM-patterns make me SICK!

a REAL, live DRUMMER  is best for any kind of music.... I tolerate Drum-Machines ONLY for effects-purposes....

AND....

Of course in a home-recording-situation You are FORCED to use MIDI-drums.... to get Yer stuff on tape, BUT other than THAT.... for me it's LIVE drummers ALL THE WAY!"

..... SOME of my BEST FRIENDS are DRUMMERS.... (a.k.a "the musicians best friend"....) ... well... all joking aside.... without the DRUMMER there would be no "rhytm-music"!

C-ya!

H.H.  

[Guest]

Well Said

Drumtracks

[Rudi]

You bet! It does make me wonder though, surely a `proper' drummer could produce a realistic kind of track, even if it meant faffing around with the time-placement of certain sounds (playing off time) for improved feel.

In the dim past I have attempted this sort of thing but I am not a drummer. The results were ok but a bit hit-n-miss. I didnt intuitively know how to get what I was after.

[Guest]

I have a drummer friend who has been playing gigs with a ROLAND electronic set for about a year now.... now would I like to HAND-CUFF him to my Livin' Room Studio - radiator back home and record all those nice little drum-sounds OFF the Roland-set!

I will..... some day!

H.H.  

Ps. He doesn't DRINK so I can't even slip him a "Mickey Finn" (what an out-of-date expression.... I have to stop reading those Raymond Chandler-novels!)

[BongStuff]

Does he have a MIDI OUT on the back of his head?

Would save mucking around with microphones...

  BS

ps. a MIDI IN could be fun too

[Guest]

Haha....

Cute kid Bongstuff

Drumtracks

[Steve]

I was listening to a live track by a band called Olgu the other day. It was just a guitar and female vocal. It was a really slow, haunting, beautiful track. So Beautiful in fact that I immediately played it again! To my surprise, I thought I had skipped to the wrong track because the tempo had changed so much! The Point Im trying to make here is , it's nice to have that human touch. Im not saying drummers go out of time    What Im saying is, Drum machines don't go out of time. On a few of my songs I have played along to the metronome for the entire track with the bass and snare drums, and the bass guitar as well. (on the keyboard) Just to try and get that human feel. Of course if the sounds you use are crap to start with, then you may be p*ss*ng up the wrong tree anyway?!!!

These posts are in response to the dastardly insinuation that I only post one liners.  

[Rudi]

just a minute, all humans play a tad off time. THAT IS NOT THE SAME THING AS LETTING THE TEMPO RUN AWAY!, its part of what the `feel' thing is. In a TV interview several years ago, Mick Fleetwood & John McVie (drummer & bassist - Fleetwood Mac) were asked if they `knew what their sound was'. They did, they said that Mick played a little in front & John a little behind and that they `meet somewhere in the middle' (though you would have to be brilliant to discern this).

Computer music is perfect. Now that we are accustomed to it, we can recognise that perfection aint all its cracked up to be. The human bits are where the individualty comes from. & If you are lucky, the magic too.

[Steve]

all humans play a tad off time

No.. Not me mate. As I mentioned earlier, I've played along to the metronone and it definately speeds up and slows down.....   :

[Guest]

Guys,

I hate to get into the middle of a heated discussion...but if I may interject a bit of (possible) useful information.  (and I will stress possible)

As a song moves from part to part meaning Verse...bridge...chorus...repeat...solo etc....each hunk, chunk or section (which ever way you feel most comfortable calling) is like its own little song.  Each has its own chord progession, each has its own rhythm,  each has its own feel.  All are like their own little songs broken up.  But in an effort to make them all work together in one piece of music we set a "tempo" and attempt to play each "little song" (hunk, chunk or section) using that same tempo.  (now this is where it gets intersting)  Each "section" may not feel correct being played in the same tempo as the chunk that was played right before, but in most cases the songwriter will choose to stick with that same tempo and time signature.(unless you are Dream Theater)  The one following this section may feel better played a little faster or slower depending on the feel of the song but trying to piece 3-5 totally different-original sections of music end to end doesn't always work with the same tempo.  (this is where it gets really interesting)  I will challenge you to take a metronome and start a song (any song) (except megadeth or rap) and after finding the tempo ....pay attention to see if it actually stays on the click through the entire song.  It will not!  I learned this by studying Phil Collins years ago.  The song will speed up slightly or slow down slightly to most efficiently generate the "hook" which is what ultimately sells CD's or back then Tape!

Drumtracks

[Steve]

I still think it's the metronome thats out! ANd all the music I listen to is perfectly in time!  

.(unless you are Dream Theater)

Funny you should mention them! I am at this very moment indulging myself with a blast of Images and Words.

Most satisfactory.  

[Rudi]

We are still not all talking of the same thing. Steve, your tempo may be perfect and uniform, but your playing along to the metronome doesnt mean you are nailing the beat ON the beat. There will be a tiny accent (usually just behind).

BS. Not sure how you'ld set that metronome up in the 1st place. It would need to be perfectly in synch with at least the 1st part of the song. Concidering tape decks and other media dont all play at the same speeds either, its kind of hard to fix a stake in the ground.

I agree in principle with what you say, though Im less convinced it is quite as prevelant as you suggest. Any hint of ralentando will twart the metronome, so certain types of music are not suitable for this kind of tempo test. I'll keep it in mind though.

[john]

Hi

I guess it depends on the music, and the reason you make it. A lot of music that is intended to get the user up to dance is pretty strict on the beat, where as tracks that are dynamic in emotions tend to interpret tempo and rhythm in a far free-er and lose way.

As far as using electronic or midi based drums there are a number of ways to 'humanise' performances.

1. Record a real drummer using an electronic kit. The hits can then be edited in time and weight, and sound, very easily.

2. Set up a midi part in strict time. Now 'groove' quantise. This is a variation on quantise that pushes an pulls beats in time and weight to humanise the drums. In Cakewalk you can also approximate this using a CAL file.

3. Use a 'tempo map' or similar to adjust the playback tempo to emulate a more natural and emmotive interpretation of the music. This can be used to create the song section based tempo changes (Like Drumtracks breakdown of tempo variations) and prog rock elements.

4. Get Drumtracks to record your drum part for you!

Cheers

John

[Steve]

All this just sounds like an excuse by real drummers that cant play in time...  :

             

[pre](Only kidding Drumtracks!)[/pre]

[Guest]

It sounds like an excuse by newbee studio musicians that can't stay with a metronome.

(just kidding steve)

[Rudi]

John said, and I quote...

Now 'groove' quantise. This is a variation on quantise that pushes an pulls beats in time and weight to humanise the drums.

You can do that huh? It sounds great, but it also sounds very ambitious. Does it actually sound authentic?

Getting Drumtracks to do it sounds favourite at the mo

[Guest]

I applaude you!!!! ;D

[BongStuff]

After years of programming drum machines and sequencers I can't help but say...

...programming a drum part WELL is damn difficult! Unless, like a previous poster said, you really need the metronomic effect of microsecond-perfect timing ( and hell, as a Kraftwerk fan I love that kind of stuff in the right context ), you will have a real job programming anything that approaches a half decent drummer.

Drum machines make life easy for the songwriter, because they are easy to record! But you reach a cutoff point where the effort involved to get the machines to sound "real" exceeds the effort of getting a drummer into a studio and getting the microphones out.

Personally, I think the best results for me have been a hybrid. Perhaps a couple of loops and machines to suggest a "groove" to a drummer, who hence comes in and gives life to the recording that otherwise would have taken weeks of programming to even approximate.

  BS

[Rudi]

Personally, I think the best results for me have been a hybrid. Perhaps a couple of loops and machines to suggest a "groove" to a drummer, who hence comes in and gives life to the recording that otherwise would have taken weeks of programming to even approximate.

Well said. I concur!