Input Needed On Idea For New Songwriting Website

[greggb]

Hey all. I purchased the domain name songwritingstars.com a few months ago. I've worked on this idea on and off. I'm thinking about getting back to it, and maybe finishing it this time. It'd be nice to have some encouragement, if you believe it's a good idea. Conversely, if you feel it's not I'd appreciate your telling me so, so in case you're right, I don't waste my time on it... or I might make some changes.

So please let me know what you think of this idea. I'm also open to any suggestions or ideas for improvements.

The idea is that it's a place for songwriters to upload their songs, like at soundcloud, reverbnation, or any other music site. The difference is that songs will be ranked by popularity, and so will songwriters. So as a songwriter, you could aspire to be the #1 songwriter in your genre, or maybe even overall.

What's really different about my idea and all the other music sites I'm aware of this I'll be going to a lot of trouble to prevent gaming of the system. Like where at reverbnation, you can spend all day fanning other artists and getting them to fan you back, and thus raise your rank. Here, songs will be judged, and ranked according to how they're judged (maybe on a scale from 1 to 5).

The songs will be judged by songwriters at the website, and anyone who wants to sign up. There will be measures in place to make sure people aren't creating tons of different accounts and judging their own songs.

I can foresee other ways people will try to cheat, but I figure I'll stay on top of those, and eventually, I will shut the cheaters down.

Another problem I'd like to address with my idea for a website is that of your song never getting listened to. In most of the other websites your song gets buried by new songs, or for other reasons may never get any plays if you don't promote it. With my site there'd be a queue that would guarantee your song would get x number of plays and judgements. It may not happen immediately, but it will happen. And I'll have incentives for getting your song plays and judgements more quickly by things you can do.

I figure, if it's popular, and it works the way I'd like it to, and a lot of songwriters add their songs here, what I'll end up with is a pretty decent catalog of songs, ranked by popularity. And I believe that such a catalog would attract people who are looking for original songs. Not to say that every publisher would be coming here, but at the very least, unsigned artists would find this very attractive.

Some people do actually look for songs at Reverbnation, but with no real way to sort by quality or popularity, you end up having to sort through a lot of junk, which is why I think it's not used for this reason more often.

Anyway, like I said, if you think you would benefit from such a site please let me know. I really need some encouragement to keep going on this. If you see problems I'm overlooking I'd also really appreciate your input.

One of my concerns is that I won't be able to get enough of the public involved. I really don't know how well this would work if the songwriters were doing the majority of the judging. On the other hand, people love to judge and vote.

BTW, it would be completely free. I'd probably make my money on it through advertising.

Again, please take just a second to let me know what you think.

Thanks!

Gregg

[john]

Hi Gregg

ooookay... aside from the fact that I would be helping you with a site that could take members away from Songstuff, ie if songwriters are somewhere else they are not here taking part in our community....

As you may know I've been running websites for a long time, particularly music sites. I can certainly see a lot of possible issues you would have to deal with especially if you are aiming to have a popular site.

Firstly I would say it would have to be heavy on advertisements if you intend paying for the site via advertising. Particularly in the early days when you have resources to pay for and few visitors. Audio transfers for streaming can be quite high bandwidth wise, of not as much as video but still, it's not cheap. Neither is the cost of an audio server of decent spec, nor the storage of music en-masse, nor the premium price for server internet connectivity. Then of course comes the software. Bespoke or high end off the shelf isn't cheap either. start down the route of free software or cheap software and you can almost guarrantee having to move large parts of your site software at some point. Pay for decent software upfront and that adds to your early costs that wont be absorbed by advertising income.

Secondly, legality. You will need to make sure you get appropriate permissions from members,PLUS be prepared to handle performance rights societies looking for broadcast fees (even if you have something that says you are given certain rights you need the appropriate checks and measures in place. Also protection from unhappy members who "didn't realise" certain permissions were given etc etc. Point is, people will look over your legal docs looking for a way to be compensated/paid etc.

Thirdly I would think again about the method ranking. Members WILL start rank trading, almost guarranteed. You gimme a 5 I'll give you a 5 etc etc. Reverbnation has song ranking as part of their ranking algorithm) This is why most charting is based around financial transactions such as buying a download (hint you could help finance your site if you offered paid downloads and free where the paid downloads earn a commission for the site). The fact is most low and mid-range indie sites offer charts based on multiple metrics. Id how many plays, how many downloads, how long was the track listened to, how many people commented on you giving you some sort of buzz factor, how did people rank you, did they refer on friends (this I think a measurement a lot of sites should have but don't),how often were you "liked", how many new "fans" did you get on your mailing list.... the possible metrics go on. The exact combinationof those factors, the weighting, the formula... is the closely guarded secret. It takes more work but ultimately it makes charting harder to fix.

Fourthly, motivations. Okay here is the big conundrum that OMD's etc still have not addressed successfully:

What features will successfully attract fans?

What features will attract bands?

How do you balance those features so that your site attracts MORE fans than bands?

Because, (and here is where ReverbNation, and many others, have it wrong) if Bands voting for bands is part of the mechanism for charting, then they will abuse it as you describe. In fact if bands interacting with bands is part of the mechanism on any level it will be abused.

The band/fan interaction has several problems. For example, listeners/fans do not want band after band contacting them looking to convert them to a fan... that's myspace, and to an extent RN. BUT bands want some control over getting fans, they want to think they can gain fans by effort as well as by automated mechanisms. The two needs do not easily meet. Doesn't mean they can't only that no one has got it right yet (in my opinion). At one point Songstuff had artist song links and charting, but in essence that was not our core direction.

Okay I have to sign off just now, but I will try to return and see if I can be a bit more encouraging! What i have said so far is just off the top of my head based on experience but let me mull it over a bit.

Cheers

John

For example:

[TapperMike]

Wow John, You are a generous man.

[greggb]

Thanks for the thoughts, John. I've been making my living online by running advertising on free sites for the last 5 years, and I'm very familiar with concept of converting server resources into income. I'd be considered an expert programmer and would have no need for anyone else's software. I have a top-of-the-line dedicated server, and I could have another one, if I needed one. Bandwidth is actually less of a concern to me than CPU usage, which I don't foresee being a problem with a site like this one. Technically, I have everything here covered. I didn't specify any of these things in my OP, and I know you mention these things with the complete intention of helping me out, and I do appreciate it. But just so you know that the technical aspect is covered...

I'm not trying to make another Reverbnation site that would have millions of members trying to promote themselves. I would actually not allow the posting of pictures, which might influence the vote on a song. I wouldn't allow the linking to buy links, blogs, websites, etc. I wouldn't allow my site to be yet another tool a band or musician could use to promote themselves. I'd actually be hoping to attract a very small subset of the people who use sites like Reverbnation, which is a site far more for artists than songwriters. I'm hoping to attract songwriters, who have songs they want to have recorded by other artists.

I wouldn't have a forum or anything like that at my site, and I'm not exactly sure what your concern would be with me taking people away from your site. As much as I like your site, and the way you're doing things, I'd be sending people to your site if there was any chance that I could. If I decide to do this I'll probably be talking to you see if there's any way we can help each other, if that's something that would interest you.

As for your mention of legal concerns, that one does worry me a little bit. Again, I'd foresee the high majority of users to be songwriters with professional demos, to which they'd have complete rights. I know I'd probably have to have a lawyer draw up a TOS, and I do know that you can't completely write away all liability with a TOS.

To answer your questions as to how I'd attract fans, my answer is: I'd be hoping the simple idea of being involved in the judging process would attract fans. I don't know for sure on that one, though. That's one thing I really don't understand, but you figure, how many thousands of people call in on shows like "Dancing With The Stars"? Again, that's one I don't really know on, and that has always been one of my biggest concerns.

Let's say that I could theoretically find a way to prevent people from cheating in the ranking. I know that's a big if. But, if I could, after providing you with more information as to what I'd be doing, and hopefully making it clear that I'm not trying to make yet another gigantic music site like Reverbnation, what concerns would you, or anyone else reading have?

Thanks very much for your thoughts, John!

Gregg

[john]

sorry gregg i meant to come back and discuss this but i was side tracked. I will try and post more tomorrow. it is too late tonight.

[seekerofknowledge]

Hi Gregg, it is a great idea, and obviously could easily be obversubscribed....in essence you are coming in from the best of reasons highlighting your own observations. I've been a songwriter over many years with a hit or two...but I'm not here to shove or get attention to this.....Many years ago I whilst being signed to CBS I formed a small label 'Mirage' in Kings Cross. We had six artists we signed.....but we had some twenty demos coming in the post every morning. We only had to choose what we thought might be useful...and despatch other demos to the bin sadly..knowing that these artistes had tried....we of course couldn't use them or play them commercially so that was an end to it. I had a lawyer, Nick on entertainment and music law...and that was useful...so I'd go with John on keeping the Legal side on your side and keeping you out of trouble. I'd also have a meet up or chat with Performing Rights to clear all angles of work submitted in respect of public access to that work....Payment for and Free is always an issue....so I wish you well with this should you go ahead.