Hello. Here's My Introduction...

[Thecha]

I write lyrics.  Have done so for fun for a long while, but I intend now to find a collaborator.  A couple of my songs have been put to music, in my opinion, fairly successfully .  Truthfully, lyrics can come somewhat easily to me.  But the melding of music with words is a higher power.  A great melody or hook can withstand trite lyrics, but when the combined alchemy is present we're talking about something lasting.  If people are interested, I can post what I consider great examples, or even my own stuff. 

I have a question:  Are people here concerned with plagarism?

 

Thanks for reading, Thecha

[Tonyy]

I write lyrics.  Have done so for fun for a long while, but I intend now to find a collaborator.  A couple of my songs have been put to music, in my opinion, fairly successfully .  Truthfully, lyrics can come somewhat easily to me.  But the melding of music with words is a higher power.  A great melody or hook can withstand trite lyrics, but when the combined alchemy is present we're talking about something lasting.  If people are interested, I can post what I consider great examples, or even my own stuff. 

I have a question:  Are people here concerned with plagarism?

 

Thanks for reading, Thecha

Hiya, Thecha. You're right about a great melody or hook. Gotta say, though, that plagiarism bit's left me more than a little bit confused...

[john]

Hi Thecha

 

Firstly welcome to the site.

 

As you would imagine plagiarism / copyright infringement is something that concerns all artists, anywhere. It is a question that has been asked loads of times and the answer remains exactly the same.

 

As soon as you write something copyright is established. That is the same in all countries that subscribe to the Berne Convention, including USA, UK, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, France, Germany and a whole load of others. ie, you write it, it is copyrighted.

 

What we need to fight copyright infringement of any kind is proof of creation or proof of ownership. This is what we try to do when we post ourselves a copy of our songs... of course that is next to useless as it is too easy to forge or fake.

 

By posting to a forum or message board you establish a lot of evidence that is dated and IP address logged, including to your email address. This is a pretty good level of evidence. Our forums don't keep a copy of new edits, but we do track that a post has been edited.

 

Online copyright registration services don't really give you much more.

 

The only really step up from that is in the USA and Canada and some other countries where there is a central, government administered copyright registration service. Notably the UK doesn't have such a service. We certainly recommend registering your finished songs in the USA, no matter where you are based. Why? Simple, it is the largest single marketplace on the web, and what better, more reliable witness to our creation than the USA run copyright service?

 

Meanwhile, your timestamped, IP address recorded submissions to our community still provide evidence of ownership, plus a convincing record of the evolution of the work. Good stuff all.

 

A couple of other points. There are 13,000+ members of our site, Our site sees 50,000 unique visitors per year. Our community has been online for 14 years. Longer if you  include the previous incarnation of our site. Over that time we have seen approximately one case of plagiarism every 18 months on average. Of those cases, approximately 2/3 involve the plagiarism of someone famous. Several cases involve the same person joining several times under different names and posting full copies of songs by Mariah Carey, Britney Spears and Whitney Houston.

 

Each time it has happened I have informed the owners of other music sites about the plagiarism.

 

Additionally we see in the reagion of 10 - 20 new lyrics per day, and something similar in terms of finished full songs. So somewhere between 3600 and 7200 new lyrics per year, and something similar in terms of new full songs.

 

My question to you would be.... given those odds, and the level of evidence of creation you would have, do you still feel vulnerable? Do you still feel that your work is so much better than the rest of the fantastic works created and posted on this site, so much so that the rare but potential plagiarist would choose your song to plagiarise?

 

feel any better?

[Thecha]

Hi John,

I appreciate your detailed message regarding copyrighting; it does instill confidence.

 

As to the quality of my work in comparison to what's posted on your site, having not yet read anything I can't comment and, in any case, it's not for for me to say.  I am entirely new to the online forum world and have a couple questions: Am I now a "member" or do I have to pay a fee to become one?  Also, could you suggest exactly where here I should post lyrics and if there is more than one area to do so.     Thanks again, Richard

[john]

Hey Richard

 

It was more a rhetorical question, just something for you to ask yourself. 

 

No fee needed. We are considering an optional VIP membership that would offer several benefits on top of the free membership, but that is still very much under discussion. We have been a free membership site for 14 years, so we aren't in a rush to introduce a second tier. Yet agin, just to stress membership is free, and there will always be free membership on offer.

 

There are two main places to post lyrics, the lyrics showcase board (for finished lyrics) and the lyrics critique board and it's sub-boards (both th lyrics critique and it's sub-boards are for works in progress)

 

Lyrics Collections (Showcase)

 

http://forums.songstuff.com/forum/113-lyrics-collections/

 

 

Lyrics Critique

 

http://forums.songstuff.com/forum/13-lyrics-critique/

 

 

Cheers

 

John

[Tonyy]

Hey Richard

 

It was more a rhetorical question, just something for you to ask yourself. 

 

No fee needed. We are considering an optional VIP membership that would offer several benefits on top of the free membership, but that is still very much under discussion. We have been a free membership site for 14 years, so we aren't in a rush to introduce a second tier. Yet agin, just to stress membership is free, and there will always be free membership on offer.

 

There are two main places to post lyrics, the lyrics showcase board (for finished lyrics) and the lyrics critique board and it's sub-boards (both th lyrics critique and it's sub-boards are for works in progress)

 

Lyrics Collections (Showcase)

 

http://forums.songstuff.com/forum/113-lyrics-collections/

 

 

Lyrics Critique

 

http://forums.songstuff.com/forum/13-lyrics-critique/

 

 

Cheers

 

John

John...as a newbie...I do have some reticence in posting my material due to copyright concerns. I use a transfer site that actually REGISTERS each and every transfer of info so it is a matter of record with the time, legal warnings, etc all "in yer face". I suggest you think about doing something similar with the new section you are considering. Cheers, matey...

[Tonyy]

Hi Thecha

 

Firstly welcome to the site.

 

As you would imagine plagiarism / copyright infringement is something that concerns all artists, anywhere. It is a question that has been asked loads of times and the answer remains exactly the same.

 

As soon as you write something copyright is established. That is the same in all countries that subscribe to the Berne Convention, including USA, UK, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, France, Germany and a whole load of others. ie, you write it, it is copyrighted.

 

What we need to fight copyright infringement of any kind is proof of creation or proof of ownership. This is what we try to do when we post ourselves a copy of our songs... of course that is next to useless as it is too easy to forge or fake.

 

By posting to a forum or message board you establish a lot of evidence that is dated and IP address logged, including to your email address. This is a pretty good level of evidence. Our forums don't keep a copy of new edits, but we do track that a post has been edited.

 

Online copyright registration services don't really give you much more.

 

The only really step up from that is in the USA and Canada and some other countries where there is a central, government administered copyright registration service. Notably the UK doesn't have such a service. We certainly recommend registering your finished songs in the USA, no matter where you are based. Why? Simple, it is the largest single marketplace on the web, and what better, more reliable witness to our creation than the USA run copyright service?

 

Meanwhile, your timestamped, IP address recorded submissions to our community still provide evidence of ownership, plus a convincing record of the evolution of the work. Good stuff all.

 

A couple of other points. There are 13,000+ members of our site, Our site sees 50,000 unique visitors per year. Our community has been online for 14 years. Longer if you  include the previous incarnation of our site. Over that time we have seen approximately one case of plagiarism every 18 months on average. Of those cases, approximately 2/3 involve the plagiarism of someone famous. Several cases involve the same person joining several times under different names and posting full copies of songs by Mariah Carey, Britney Spears and Whitney Houston.

 

Each time it has happened I have informed the owners of other music sites about the plagiarism.

 

Additionally we see in the reagion of 10 - 20 new lyrics per day, and something similar in terms of finished full songs. So somewhere between 3600 and 7200 new lyrics per year, and something similar in terms of new full songs.

 

My question to you would be.... given those odds, and the level of evidence of creation you would have, do you still feel vulnerable? Do you still feel that your work is so much better than the rest of the fantastic works created and posted on this site, so much so that the rare but potential plagiarist would choose your song to plagiarise?

 

feel any better?

"Self copyrights" do...EVENTUALLY...feel the force of law...but that's AFTER you go through the awful gymnastics of a civil suit. Do it right, copy right! Let the Fed bring the thief to a criminal court. This moves the matter to one of defrauding the federal government...THEN sue the SOB!

[Tonyy]

Obviously, I'm not John 

But, I happened to see your post and a thought immediately occurred to me.

Why in the world would we ever want to do that?....Seriously!

 

My God, there are already so many supposed ways to protect yourself from infringement it makes my head spin!

The kicker being that someone who decides to steal your material is probably gonna do it anyway.....regardless of what you attempt to protect it with.   Why in the world would someone like yourself offer yet another method for what many already chose to ignore? That's like suggesting that more speed limit sings on the roads will somehow deter speeders.

For the almost 8 years I've been a member of this site, we have always recommended to folks that they utilize what is still the most universally recognized method of protection for their material....registration with the Library of Congress. As far as I'm concerned, anything other than that is a complete waste of money, time and effort.

 

BTW - whatever this is you're suggesting as a "transfer site", please do NOT mention it by name on this site. We have no reliable way of knowing what products you happen to be personally affiliated with. Consequently, we do NOT allow posts or links of that nature here.

 

Sorry if my response rubs ya' a little wrong, but the last thing this world needs is yet another site, ap or entity promising additional protection for online material. I would strongly suggest that, before continuing this conversation about a specific online product, you PM John Moxey and ask his feelings on the subject. Thanks!

Point by point:

 

1> there are already so many supposed ways to protect yourself from infringement

 

I said on another post that a US copyright is "the" way to go with my reasoning also posted. Yep, Library of Congress...but for "work in progress" where you just don't HAVE your final melody or finished "eight bars"...you are in "iffy" territory. I've been robbed, before...and was able to recover in court. The "send it you yourself in a letter" is pretty lame...

 

2> please do NOT mention it by name on this site

 

Ya mean...don't mention what I didn't mention??? Okay! No sweat!

 

3>  I would strongly suggest that, before continuing this conversation about a specific online product, you PM John Moxey and ask his feelings on the subject.

 

Okay: John...how do you feel about me not mentioning the site I won't mention??? Oops...this ain't a PM...sorry!!!

 

Criminy, Tunesmith...do you drink a lot of coffee???

[john]

John...as a newbie...I do have some reticence in posting my material due to copyright concerns. I use a transfer site that actually REGISTERS each and every transfer of info so it is a matter of record with the time, legal warnings, etc all "in yer face". I suggest you think about doing something similar with the new section you are considering. Cheers, matey...

I will look into it. If it's easy to implement from our point of view I don't see why not if it makes for a better base for evidence. That said in terms of proof of authorship, an evolutionary chain of IP recorded, time stamped posts that would indicate any tampering is about as good as you could get short of official copyright registration via the library of congress. We did consider an on site, private, cheap copyright registration service but really struggled to see the legal benefit of a private registration on our site, or any other, after all they all offer similar levels of evidence and protection. True we do not require the logging of the genuine details of the poster, but that is not necessary assuming the poster can prove the email address associated with their account is indeed theirs. Our site does have numerous copyright protection statements. As Tom says and you are no doubt aware of, nothing can stop anyone using anything. Once they are aware of it, they can use it, whether it's on a pad in your house, they hear you play it in a bar, or your recording drifting out your window onto the street. What we are talking of is how you recover the situation.

Perhaps you might know, having been through it, what specific additional mechanisms are you talking of, and what advantages does each mechanism provide in any legal case? Probably better to deal with in PM rather than me hijacking Thecha's thread any further! Lol

[john]

Oh and I could be wrong here, but I don't think even the library of congress maintains full copies of all past versions, only the latest version and the last write access time and location. No doubt some of our ents lawyer members will correct me lol

[Tonyy]

NO...not these days. But, because I'm staff, I can see the email addresses members register with....hence my earlier preemptive recommendation.

Enough said?

 

 So.....if I correctly understand your statement, you're saying that this transfer mechanism is capable of providing a "legally binding guarantee" of protection for a work-in-progess? 

 

Let's just say for a moment....that's a true statement. How many folks do you know who are deeply concerned about protecting something that isn't finished....something they intend to change anyway?

 

Tom

It's been used many times in court. I've used it. It's great documentation. Bear in mind that works in progress are easy to steal...so, any ounce of prevention will travel some way...seeing as you can't copyright it, regardless. No...it's not a "legally binding guarantee"...what is, short of a copyright? There's that Catch 22...you want to "copyright" a work in progress...but you can't...but you should. so...if you are gonna send something off...it ain't gonna hurt, now is it?   Cheers, matey...

[paullad]

Hi Thecha,

 

Thanks for starting such a lively discussion.

[Thecha]

I can hardly take credit for what ensued, but I'm definitely far better informed on the subject.