Shill

[TapperMike]

My Cousin is a Novelist and sent me this via facebook.

 

 

Are you a shill.  http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/shill

 

Will you write anything for a buck?

 

Sylvester Stallone's first feature was porn.  He recant's his decision later stating it was the only way for him to earn a buck. In fact it may have been his role in the porn movie that caught the eyes of casting directors and got him into legitimate films 

 

There are many such stories in history about famous artists songwriters musicians who would easily sell out for a buck that eventually lead them to a better career.

 

I may be more saintly now, I wasn't in my younger years.  I'd get studio work doing local tv commercials. Party stores, pawn shops, car part stores.  Oil change you name it.  Because the clients were cheap they didn't want to pay royalties. So the producer / writer would take part of one motif from one song and merge it with another motif from another song.  It would sound familiar enough but not quite recognizable to the public.  You'll often here the same thing in background music for low budget tv shows and movies.  Big budget commercials and tv shows will actually pay for the rights because it's worth it to them and they can later release it as a soundtrack.

 

Do you feel that the music you make is a part of you?

 

Or Do you take on the role of story teller and dissolve yourself from the process as it's not your story you are telling?

 

Would you do anything for recognition/fame in hopes that later on you could make up the difference by having the recognition to do what you want and possibly keep the following?   (That's what both Tom Petty and Johnny Cougar Mellencamp did and they've stated as much)

 

 

Edited April 6, 2016 by TapperMike

[Just1L]

Give me a buck and you'll find out. 

 

Spoiler

LOL Just kidding. I may write something for a buck, depending on what it is, but I wouldn't do anything for a buck.

 

[Rudi]

I've never been in that position. I'm going to hedge & say 'it depends'.

 

I think I can imagine doing this. How far though? I dunno!

 

To be frank, I've done worse things in my life.

[TapperMike]

I have no problems endorsing products I support...even for free.

 

 

When this song came out...my first reaction was... I would have loved to been her producer.

But maybe not. 

 

Along time back there were these Karaoke video producers in malls that would have huge waits.  Parents wanting to have their kids doing music videos.  For a little more the producer would actually write the songs for them and do all the background music.  It was huge money in wealthier communities.  Talk up to the parents tell them that they think the kid has real potential and then charge the rich parents crazy money for really poorly produced music videos.  

 

There is a lot of money to be had producing music videos like this.  But it's something I just couldn't do.  Sure the parents have more then enough money to spend. And when the rich kid want's to try something else the parents will fork out the dough again and again. 

Edited April 9, 2016 by TapperMike

[starise]

I can't misrepresent something just because I'm paid to do it. Not in my DNA.

 

I tried sales .... I was a real estate agent.I obtained my license to sell. I tried selling vaccum cleaners before that when I was very young. As a job when I was in school, I sold cards door to door. I hated all of that. Just wasn't me. If they want a house or a vaccum or cards let them go to buy them.

The whole concept of "selling" something seems like an art of persuasion to me. If I put it in front of you and schmooze you, you might buy my thing. As a consumer I hate this approach. If I want it I'll go look for it. I don't want or need "help" in deciding. 

Probably why I ended up in a technical trade where I don't need to haggle anyone. 

 

I never looked at music like a commodity. As an art it can be sold sure, but there are so many other steps between the visualization of the art and a person making  living from it. It really isn't a thing primarily to be sold but people buy it. A sincere artist never thinks about money when conceptualizing art. I think the main reason musicians made big money in times past...say the 70's and 80's, was because the big corporations got behind  selected artists and propelled them for their own profits...the artist made money in the process. The corporations didn't say, " Hey let's help this musician make money".

 

I believe creativity suffers when an artist needs to make money from their art. I have a fall back income, so I'm not obligated to make money. If I do, that's icing on the cake, but my objective is never to profit. It's  fun to make music for fun.

 

Music as a skill to be taught is a great and rewarding way to make money . I'm taking violin lessons now from a music major undergraduate. There is a real need for people to learn from other good musicians and this should be worth something.

 

Take any of the well known names in music. David Bowie, Elton John...etc etc.These guys are/were talented but no more talented than many others. The difference was only the corporate machine that got them to star status. Provided recording contracts and jet planes and wide record distribution. These guys aren't gods....just talented people who were in the right places to make art profitable.

[TapperMike]

Thanks for your reply. All valid and shared by me.  I'd go further but I have to run off to work for slave wages.

 

I too had some sales jobs that didn't work out, simply because I didn't have it in me.

 

In regards to David Bowie.  You couldn't have picked a better choice.  He was the first punk rocker imho. He tried to make it as a folk musician first but couldn't pull that off.  He went bankrupt pretending he was rich so he could sell more records during his glam rock period. I actually liked many of his songs at that time but I think it was more of the people he surrounded himself with then his own inventiveness. Many a rocker who knew him at the time said he was an okay bloke till he started acting like Ziggy Stardust.  As he exited one genre on to the next he always was ashamed over what he just did.  I can understand wanting to change musical direction in ones life.  I actually like players who do that throughout a career.  But to say your ashamed of it is another matter.  I also loved the material he produced in the 80's.  After he switched styles and apologized for everything he had done previously .."To get back into his roots for being in music"  I threw in the towel.  Couldn't stand the stuff he was doing didn't give a damn about how many records he produced.   

 

Listeners have this thing (or had) about how much an artist can change from album to album.  It pigeonholes the artist and can stunt personal development of the artist as a person.  Al Jolson had a shtick when he was young that opened a lot of doors.  He was capable of so much more but that's not what the public wanted to see.  So the rest of his life he was a caricature of his former self. 

 

Clapton was one of the few that both expanded his range as a musician/writer and retained much of his core listeners while gaining new followings.  When I saw him in the 80's the audience had a balance of teens, 20's,30's,40's, and 50's  It was a sold out concert. When he changes styles it's not about chasing a fad.

 

Those of us who are cover artists are freed from all of that.  The best are actors more then musicians.  We don't just play the part we act it.  And unlike the acting profession we aren't typecast.

 

Edited April 12, 2016 by TapperMike

[starise]

Good references to Bowie. An interesting way to look at it. I didn't intend to single out David Bowie. I think he was on my mind because of his recent death.

 

I went to hear Styx not long ago. Foreigner is playing in my neighborhood about 10 miles away. I don't think I'll go to the show even though I really liked them in the day. Can you imagine singing the same songs for 30 years? When these guys stand up there for a show how do they look fresh and deliver the music like they just started?

 

 I believe it's because it's a show and the show must go on. I can imagine these guys thinking to themselves , "here we go again".Then they put on that happy face and they're off to the races. Then it's back to the tour bus to the next gig. Are these guys really happy? What about Aerosmith? Another long timer in the business. I just seen Alice Cooper on cable. Alice Cooper? He's still out there doing those cheesy props and playing gigs. He's gotta be touching 60 or more years old. He's probably like," Hold on I need to take my heart meds and a shot of prune juice before I go on tonight." Is this what some people aspire to? 

Not me.

 

I guess if you REALLY love the music you'll keep doing it night after night, then they'll lay you in a fancy grave somewhere and people can oooh and awe over you and cover your grave with flowers like Elvis. They can sell records long after you die and there might be the occasional mention of your name in Rolling Stone Magazine. Poor buggar he shouldn't have done all that heroin at once.

 

What surprises me the most is the success the record companies have had in making an image that people almost worship. I didn't follow Merle Haggard. Never was a country music guy. My parents listened to him. He is now dead, yes it's a shame he's gone like all the others. I just don't get the hero worship thing. Whenever one of these guys dies it's like we lost Jesus again. I mean no disrespect to any of them. I don't understand the "cult worship mentality".

 

I think the whole idea of these "idols" is overdone. These are hard working musicians who don't know any other way. The corporate machine will just squeeze them all dry.

[TapperMike]

Alice Cooper could prolly retire.  He's actually a lot healthier then many rockers younger and the same age as him.

He's had a life of...working out and no drugs or drink (I know it sounds crazy)  People like that need an audience. 

 

 

Les Paul retired in the 1960's after his accident. It wasn't about the accident.  The music industry didn't want him anymore and he couldn't get any gigs.  He'd tinker around with various inventions after the sound on sound and multi-track but many of them didn't catch on.  Still he had enough money to live as he wanted to.  Then Chet Atkins pulled him out of his early retirement for a few years. He would do shows and make the late night tv circuit.  Then he retired again.  Even though he tried to stay active his health was declining badly.  Oddly the thing that got him healthy again  for his last ten years was going back on stage.  I'm not a fan of LP's stage presence. He's often snarky and kids his fellow bandmates.  

 

My running joke about the rolling stones back in the 70's was that they should really retire "Satisfaction" from the set. Mick Jagger could get all the satisfaction one man can handle.  Stupid Rich, Beautiful wife who would host orgies on Sunday when not touring and when he was on tour he'd have guards snap polaroids of girls in the crowd from which he'd choose to bed with.

 

[starise]

 I have respect for musicians who really like doing what they do and continue to do it until they can't do it anymore. I hope the majority of these older musicians are this way.

If they feel an obligation or a need to perform for other reasons that's kinda sad. At one time a record company could be a surrogate parent and general sugar daddy to a famous group or musician.Providing Hoes, coke and whatever else would keep the tour machine running smoothly. It's still that way for a few. I'm surprised that some of them are still at it after all this time doing the same material that made them famous. 

Many of the acts like Foreigner and Styx have notched their schedules and venues back, mainly because they aren't as famous as they once were in the heyday.So instead of the private jet , it might be a tour bus with cheap motel stops and instead of   playing a 10,000 seat auditorium, it's now much smaller fare, but they still bring in the faithful andf make money at it.

 

None of this appeals to me as a lifestyle I could possibly enjoy. One notable exception to the wild hellion lifestyle that many rockers who lived on the road lived is the band Rush. It seems they just liked a nice quiet secluded evening in their rooms. I forget which one...is it Geddy? Who is an avid reader and would read during lulls in tours. Mick Jagger... I don't envy him either. If it offered total satisfaction he wouldn't want more. Fame is an intangible that influences how a person feels about themself. If you already feel good about yourself, or at least comfortable in your own skin, you don't need it. People can like you even when you're totally miserable, or hate you when you feel great, so it really has little to do with self worth IMHO.

[TapperMike]

Many just ran out of money.  Kenny Loggins for example.  He didn't plan, he didn't save. He honestly thought his life would be living out of a van.  He finally went back to performing so his kid could go to college.

 

The expensive ticket concerts are mostly older artists who until recently were all playing at casinos.  It's hard not to go out and play when you are looking at all that money still to be made.  

http://ultimateclassicrock.com/expensive-concert-tickets/

 

They weren't pulling in this type of money in their prime.

 

 

[starise]

 

I didn't know Kenny Loggins fell on hard times. Lots of those guys just blew the money on women and coke. Rick James was one who always had a harem because he was buying the coke and the chicks who liked coke would live with you if you let them. He eventually went broke and ran out of coke, then the women all went away...funny how that works. MC Hammer went broke, but mainly because his entourage was too big. Keith Richards of the Rolling Stones probably blew more money than many rich men will ever see on heroin and coke and still has money. He's one tough dude. Most people would have died twice going through what he put himself through.

 

 Out of curiosity I checked out ticket prices for Foreigner in my area. The better seats are in the 200.00 range. Might go to 300.00 for front row seats.The less desirable seats are in the 50.00 range.A lot of that money goes to the promoters and the venue hosting the show.

 

Front row isn't really my cuppa. I try and stay away from all that sweat and saliva flying  around. The main reason though is they don't sound better up front.

I really don't need to see them close up. For memorable listening experience I haven't had much luck with live events. It's more about the "show" I think.Which is fun if you like the group.

 

When I went to see Styx I had to wonder what they think when they look at the audience.They shine that bright flood at the audience painting all of those faces. Mostly followers from the last 30 or more years....I felt like I was in a convalescent home when I looked around. They could turn the music up full blast because almost everyone there is deaf anyhow. It was a great show though. 

My most recent concert was Danu  http://www.danu.net/  All acoustic, instruments and vocals miced. A much different experience. I got the feeling they were playing because they liked it.

Edited April 14, 2016 by starise

[TapperMike]

Wow some great stories.

 

I don't see concerts anymore.  That died for me during the late 80's though I wish I'd seen Steely Dan back in the 90's

I rarely go to bars as well.  Between financial strains and alcoholism the only reason for me to go is prolly to meet up with an old friend who's still gigging.  I much prefer the free concerts in the park.  60's through 80's cover bands.  They actually make more money doing the parks and rec cuicuit then they would in bars.  What's more is it's only a two hour show.   The audience is all ages.  Though mostly +40.  

 

Wixom / Walled Lake is strange with regards to listening habits.  The kids (teens/twenties) still listen to classic rock. And those that do play instruments still work out their chops on Led Zeppelin, Pink Floyd,  Stones, Beatles and earlier works by David Bowie.  Until just recently I'd worked with this 17 year old girl who plays guitar, mandolin and ukulele  She'd play songs like Going to California by Zep and Rod Stewart and the faces covers.  Damn well, I might add.  

[starise]

I'm like you mostly.I do attend a few each year. I haven't been in a few months. I had forgotten I attended a Kevin Burke concert most recently. You probably don't know who he is so here's a link to his page. http://www.kevinburke.com/

 

I bumped into him a little before the concert and didn't recognize him because he was sitting off to my side. His concert was in a venue that has multiple bars in it. I had just sat down on an easy chair with a drink in front of a large screen television. I happened to look over and there he was eating dinner before the concert. He shook my hand. A really earthy nice guy. Here's a pic of us! 

I guess I've migrated more into the acoustic territory lately and not as much rock.

[TapperMike]

Seems like a likeable guy.  I had to go scouring youtube after your link.  Great stuff.

 

Every acoustic guitar I've ever had has gone to hell in a handbasket.  I finally gave up buying them.  People always look at me funny in the park because I'll bring an electric guitar and my pignose.

[starise]

 

Kevin can really play fiddle well. He has been called one of the best in the world on irish fiddle. I wouldn't argue that at all. He has all of the special little "ornaments" down. The fancy frilly things the irish do on a fiddle. His technique is flawless. He could probably play in his sleep. Violin has to be one of the absolute toughest instruments to play and he makes it look easy.

 

Those pignose amps are great! Nothing wrong with that. Let em' look at you. Who cares. I would do whatever works best for you. I like electrics guitar too, but it seems easier to pick up my martin . I really need another audio interface in order to better use my electric guitar plug-ins. My older Presonus only gets  21ms round trip latency. That's way to slow to track through something like Amplitube or Guitar Rig. It can be frustrating to hear the delay in recording through those. .......anyways I'm taking the subject of the thread way off base here. Sorry about that.

 

I think the main thing is, do you enjoy doing what you do in music? If so, then  we probably don't need to worry about being a paid shill right? 

 

[TapperMike]

It's funny you mention latency.

 

I bought a Dell desktop with windows 10 pro.  It's got tons of ram and the latest i7 processor.  The midi latency is atroucious compared to my older AMD quad core running vista.  Something's amiss.  On the new dell it doesn't matter if I'm running Steinberg asio, asio4all or waspi/direct either via the hdmi, the built in soundcard or my Yamaha THR all in one amp/soundcard.

[TapperMike]

The pignose has lasted me since 1986.  Prior to that I had another pignose which dated back to '76  Durable critters.

[starise]

Since this is the "lounge" I guess any topic within reason is ok as long as you don't mind it changing directions.

 

Latency is mainly due to the quality of the drivers and the internal buffer inside of the audio interface. My one way latency is around 10ms. My round trip latency is twice that amount. Some interfaces now are getting 6ms round trip latency. RME, Steinberg and Motu have some great drivers that keep latency lower because of a better design.

 

Having said that , you can adjust the computer recording buffers lower. If you have your buffer set at 512 , you could try half that amount at 256. If your setup can handle that amount you will trim a few ms off the latency. If it can't you'll get crackling noises.The buffers can either be accessed through your recording software or the software that came with your interface or sound card.

 

You may also be having an issue with win10 changing settings. I had that problem. Good luck with it.

 

As a workaround I have been recording electric guitar parts dry and then adding the FX later on. For synths I'll record a midi file while listening to audio from the same keyboard, so I have both a midi track and an audio track recorded at the same time. I can then take that midi track and insert it into a software synthesizer. I just haven't had the time to look into a new interface yet, but I plan to. The Motu ultralight is a strong contender. I like what I have for sound quality, just has bad latency numbers.

 

 

 

[TPistilli]

58 minutes ago, starise said:

Since this is the "lounge" I guess any topic within reason is ok as long as you don't mind it changing directions.

 

Latency is mainly due to the quality of the drivers and the internal buffer inside of the audio interface. My one way latency is around 10ms. My round trip latency is twice that amount. Some interfaces now are getting 6ms round trip latency. RME, Steinberg and Motu have some great drivers that keep latency lower because of a better design.

 

Having said that , you can adjust the computer recording buffers lower. If you have your buffer set at 512 , you could try half that amount at 256. If your setup can handle that amount you will trim a few ms off the latency. If it can't you'll get crackling noises.The buffers can either be accessed through your recording software or the software that came with your interface or sound card.

 

You may also be having an issue with win10 changing settings. I had that problem. Good luck with it.

 

As a workaround I have been recording electric guitar parts dry and then adding the FX later on. For synths I'll record a midi file while listening to audio from the same keyboard, so I have both a midi track and an audio track recorded at the same time. I can then take that midi track and insert it into a software synthesizer. I just haven't had the time to look into a new interface yet, but I plan to. The Motu ultralight is a strong contender. I like what I have for sound quality, just has bad latency numbers.

 

I have a Focusrite 2i2 that has about 10ms latency at my present settings. They just came out with a smaller Clarett version that brings the latency to almost nil. Not bad price either (depending on your budget) about $460.  

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/Clarett2Pre?adpos=1o3&creative=93365752201&device=c&matchtype=&network=g&gclid=CNnZi56ylMwCFVFsfgodTzsApw

Edited April 17, 2016 by tunesmithth
corrected structure of response

[starise]

Thanks TPistilli for that info. I guess I got attached to my Presonus and don't want to let go of it...but at some point it's gotta happen. I have heard great things about those Focusrite units. I'll check that link out.