Terms of Service changes

[lemonstar]

On logging in I got asked to agree to an update to the terms - in a nutshell what changed and why?

[lemonstar]

And what does OMD stand for - I have several possibilities in mind but there's no explanation on the page?

[lemonstar]

?

[john]

Online Music Distributor (Soundcloud, Soundclick, Reverbnation are old style OMD. CD baby added it to their CD product range a few years ago. Old style used to just distribute on their own site, which CD Baby did not do.)

 

We clarified terms of use to allow Songstuff to share posts or images, interviews onto our social media portals. We already could but made it more explicit and for promotion... ie we can’t just repost elsewhere to make money. It is to allow us to do more to promote members who are artists with appropriate permissions without asking for permissions we don’t need. We also added promotion of members via Songstuff UK. The main format is for interviews and featured artists.

 

We also expand the terms to cover staff doing promotion on associated staff promotion accounts, mainly on Twitter. Our envisaged usage is to help artists promote releases, mainly through playlists. We can then do text, image interviews, features and blog posts and video interviews too.

 

So it is a mix of reduced, focused permissions, but applying to Songstuff U.K. too, and our social portals. In terms of general posts it would primarily be title, image (if there is one) and an excerpt, linking to the original or featured post. In the case of a featured artist or interview etc, it would allow us to post images to the Songstuff Pinterest page to link to the feature, interview or very occasionally to an image in our gallery. Although the terms currently apply to text and image across the boards, most images would be those uploaded to specific galleries.

 

Most sites have terms to cover this, they just tend to be more blanket terms.

[john]

I would also add that having permissions not only clarifies how and where to use any content, it also allows us to attract new members based upon the content we post on Social media.

 

New video interviews specifically are a great way to promote writers, artists and musicians is a great addition as video stats are so much better when it comes to engagement and memorability.

 

In a couple of months we plan to add Songstuff made lyrics videos and webcam song performances. Those would require separate copyright permissions. Indeed the video interview requires a work for hire agreement, just not a permissions statement.

 

I hope this helps? We really are trying to do something positive for writers and artists, and our members in general.

[john]

On 11/11/2019 at 7:07 PM, lemonstar said:

?

 

 Does that help?

[lemonstar]

On 11/12/2019 at 12:07 AM, john said:

Online Music Distributor (Soundcloud, Soundclick, Reverbnation are old style OMD. CD baby added it to their CD product range a few years ago. Old style used to just distribute on their own site, which CD Baby did not do.)

 

We clarified terms of use to allow Songstuff to share posts or images, interviews onto our social media portals. We already could but made it more explicit and for promotion... ie we can’t just repost elsewhere to make money. It is to allow us to do more to promote members who are artists with appropriate permissions without asking for permissions we don’t need. We also added promotion of members via Songstuff UK. The main format is for interviews and featured artists.

 

 

OMD - I thought so it's just that it didn't define it explicitly and I'm sure I won't be the only person who will wonder what it stands for.

 

Hmm - so you could or would repost or copy or quote something I post here on some other platform - would that be with my agreement in advance or not? Do I have to copyright everything I type here? Maybe I am creating or using material that I might want to put into my own blog or book - how would you know what I want to do with my work? Are you saying you are assuming intellectual control of anything I post here?

[lemonstar]

On 11/12/2019 at 12:17 AM, john said:

I would also add that having permissions not only clarifies how and where to use any content, it also allows us to attract new members based upon the content we post on Social media.

 

New video interviews specifically are a great way to promote writers, artists and musicians is a great addition as video stats are so much better when it comes to engagement and memorability.

 

In a couple of months we plan to add Songstuff made lyrics videos and webcam song performances. Those would require separate copyright permissions. Indeed the video interview requires a work for hire agreement, just not a permissions statement.

 

I hope this helps? We really are trying to do something positive for writers and artists, and our members in general.

I have to say that I have no interest in anything to do with marketing and promoting anything I do - it's a hobby, relaxation, a creative outlet and something that brings me into contact with like-minded people with a  shared interest  - that last bit is pretty important and really the only reason I am on the site. Clearly you have a very different idea about what you want the site to be.

[john]

6 hours ago, lemonstar said:

I have to say that I have no interest in anything to do with marketing and promoting anything I do - it's a hobby, relaxation, a creative outlet and something that brings me into contact with like-minded people with a  shared interest  - that last bit is pretty important and really the only reason I am on the site. Clearly you have a very different idea about what you want the site to be.

I would love to know how we make a video interview with you without you knowing, or without your permission. We have almost as many uses of the site as there are members. Some do it purely as a hobby or exploration of something that could become a hobby. Some are very ambitious and see themselves becoming professional writers or artists. Even when someone writes purely as a hobby, it does not necessarily mean they want everyone to know, or no one to know. I simply want the site to support different songwriters and their aspirations, be that completing a song, or something more.
 

When we do an interview with an artist or writer, it starts with us asking them. We then promote that interview on site, off-site, in our newsletter etc. Posting to the showcase board is about showcasing the songs posted there. It says as much at the top of the board, as does a new gallery category. Whereas the critique boards are for works in progress. I don’t think we have ever considered featuring a WIP.
 

Where we feature and promote we want to be doing so with the understanding and approval of members. As said, most sites have much wider ranging permissions hidden away. The restriction of “for promotion” is because the intended usage is not for commercial reasons.

 

Copyright exists as soon as you create something. That is why we ask for copyright permissions from you in our terms and conditions. You choose to do that. Without those permissions we could not operate as a forum, because we could not let anybody see anything you had ever typed or otherwise uploaded
 

You’ve been around the site and seen what we do, the kind of things that we promote. We are now talking of adding other things for those who want them. As mentioned those would require further permissions from contributors.

 

 

 

 

[john]

9 hours ago, lemonstar said:

 

Hmm - so you could or would repost or copy or quote something I post here on some other platform - would that be with my agreement in advance or not? Do I have to copyright everything I type here? Maybe I am creating or using material that I might want to put into my own blog or book - how would you know what I want to do with my work? Are you saying you are assuming intellectual control of anything I post here?

It doesn’t serve the member or the site for us to do something that doesn’t include goodwill. In practical terms we don’t want to be promoting things people are not happy with us to promote. That would be a lot of wasted effort on the part of staff just to piss members off. What is the point in that? We can’t make money from doing it. Our main reason to promote is to help the artist or writer, and the secondary is to attract more likeminded people to the site for members to interact with. If we abuse what we can do it would kill the community, serving no one at all. There is a big difference between what can legally be done and what it is wise to do.

 

If you are in a 60 mph driving zone, do you take a sharp corner at 60, or do you slow to take the corner safely? Life is full of “could”s that are unrealistic scenarios for very practical reasons.

 

If you do not consent for Songstuff to distribute what you write via Songstuff itself, you cannot be a member. That is true for every single website, including email providers. Patently for us to display it to anyone else in the world, to digitally transmit it across international boundaries etc. Requires permission from you. Otherwise Songstuff would be breaching your copyright. Exclusivity is a different issue, that relates to your copyright. Songstuff has no interest in, or right to, exclusivity for forum content. There are times with video content we might want that for a period due to the efforts we might go to on your behalf, but that would be a whole separate agreement.

 

Of course you can post stuff in your blog or book. If you want to exclusively post something to your blog or book, (and this is not Songstuff specific) don’t post it anywhere else. Our forums are mainly publicly viewable, with some member only areas.

 

We are not assuming intellectual control of everything you post here. Neither do we distribute anything without your permission. On a practical point, it would be unmanageable for us to ask fo specific permissions for every item of content, never mind annoying for members. Instead we have member only areas and public viewable areas. You choose where your post goes. For example content in “member only” areas cannot be shared by members or promoted by staff. Going beyond that we are trying to give you more informed and explicit control by having boards like showcase that we tell you up front if you post here we might repost it to promote your content. That is an informed choice you make.

 

Until now we have acted in a trustworthy way with what permissions we are given. It is not in our interests for us to abuse that trust. Trust is involved in every case of data content. Where we do not explicitly rule out some scenarios it would be crazy of us to do things so hostile to goodwill because communities do need some goodwill in order to operate.

 

I should say, I am not against rigidly stipulating specific source forums (like showcase) for potential promotion in terms of copyright permissions, however to do so we remove a lot of flexibility and potentially  increase the work of our volunteer staff. An alternative is possibly best achieved by making most boards member only but that will probably reduce the number of new members attracted to the boards. Or we do as currently implemented. We can also change the balance a bit and perhaps signpost things more clearly and make the info about the different areas more readily available which is the direction we are going in just now.

 

We ask for less permissions than sites like Soundcloud, who let other people embed your content in its entirety on any other website. Our social share buttons default to the title and a link (only on public topics). Private Soundcloud links you have to share directly and responsibly. Whereas a member or member group only post on Songstuff can only be shared with members or that member group. Staff do not share anything from private or non public areas out with those groups. YouTube has very similar content sharing to Soundcloud. Facebook does allow you to choose topic sharing, but only on content posted to your wall. Post elsewhere and either global permissions apply or the permissions of that page or group.

 

Pretty well all other forums have similar permissions to the way Songstuff’s were, giving them a wider remit on what they can do. They too tend to have social sharing buttons, public and member only areas. While we ask for permissions for the staff to repost to specific places, content for a specific purpose, in practical terms that only draws on specific boards or content types (interviews/articles etc), to abuse that would undermine trust and kill the boards.

 

Its late and my explanation probably rambling. My “idea” is to try to help members in the ways they want helped. Sometimes that is with knowledge, sometimes tools, sometimes via peer interaction, sometimes finding collaborators, sometimes finding friends with similar interests, informed opinions or enthusiasm, but also help in finding artists to play their songs, places to reach fans etc... and just like everything else it is with informed consent and goodwill.

 

Could we do things different or better? Probably. I am always open to suggestions. I don’t make money from doing all this. We provide all this based on goodwill. We try to provide this as a safe, fair place to interact, where you are respected by staff and other members. I try to treat people fairly and help them achieve the music goals I can help with, how I can. I don’t think it unreasonable to cover our asses copyright wise, or to make sure members understand the rights they are being asked for and why, or to spell out the members part of the contract. We provide all this for nothing, extending goodwill and trust to members not to abuse what we give them too.
 

Based upon your experience of Songstuff, has it, to your knowledge, ever previously abused the permissions you or others have granted it?

 

If we can make you more comfortable, I will look to do so. I certainly don’t think your needs or wants from Songstuff (as explained by you) are incompatible with my perception of the wants and needs of our member base as a whole.