% in a band?

[andreya]

If a band is to operate on 'split profits', what's the norm?

For example, what percentage will usually go to the songwriter/s (lyrics+music together or separately), singer/s, musicians...? Divide it with the number of people involved, or functions performed, or what? What if one person does several things, do you just add up the percentage?

Also, is it best to register the song with an organisation first or when it's 'properly' recorded in its final form?

I apologize if this is the wrong place to post this, or if the question has been answered previously (couldn't find it). I'll appreciate a link or a pointer then.

Thanks!!

[john]

Hi

It's not quite as straight forward as that. Bands earn money from a number of income streams, as do songwriters, each with expected overall percentages going to the band or songwriter. Additionally the people in the band could have completely different roles in the band. Each role tends to have different primary sources for income. If someone performs multiple roles they get their share of each income stream.

For example: A songwriter would expect 50% of the publishers income in a "catch all" agreement. A band member will not necessarily get any income from this. Each performer gets income derived from performing rights (radio performances etc), and income from mechanical rights (cd sales etc). If they are a session man tey get paid a fixed rate, if they perform live but aren't involved in arranging songs they get a percentage of tour income, if they are involved in arrangement they get money from that, if they wrote the song they get money from that.

As you can see, it can get quite complicated.

A great deal depends on what the band agrees. i.e who wrote the song? who arranged the song? who just plays the song? Some bands agree to split everything down the middle where everyone had an equal share in writing and arranging. The same with songwriting partnerships. But this doesn't always work. Some band members write more songs, some just like playing, others like to be involved in promotion and publicity, others like to get drunk,, get the women and do none of the work.

Often we need a better division. If you can agree the roles ovreall, and for each song, the commission shares are pretty easy.

In bands I have been in I have been the main, or only songwriter, writing both words and music and arrangement. In this case I have been the only one entitled to the songwriters share of publishing income. In others I have been the writer and shared the arrangement, or written music for someone else's lyrics. It varies.

Knowing what roles I played allows me to easily work out what I am entitled to.

Cheers

John

[Steve]

Hi andreya. Welcome to songstuff.

I suppose it depends on your situation! If you are intending setting up a band by auditioning musicians, then it's up to you to set the terms and conditions of employment. If the said musicians are not happy with your terms , they don't have to join your band! If you are an established band already but you feel you are contributing more than some of the others, then it's up to you to bring up any problems you have. This could of course create bad feeling in the band. If you intend recording and selling CDs and you are the song writer, then you will be entitled to royalties from your song, but the band could be entitled to royalties from the recording, unless they were employed as session musicians and payed a fee for their efforts.

If you need more information on copyright, have a look at this. And this. And this.

Give us some more information and we'll try to answer any questions you have.

[andreya]

Thanks!!

I'l go and look at the links but it's all a bit mindboggling at the moment!!

Okay, I've been asked to join a band where the 'boss' is a talented composer/musician (pianist).

They need a lyricist, if I write the music too that's a bonus (sometimes I do). He does the arrangement mostly. I could also sing. There are already several singers (3 so far, one also plays the flute), a drummer I think, the guitarist is new, I'm not sure about the rest.

The plan is to do the CDs indie, without a publisher. I'm guessing concerts etc. too, and ultimately they want to be on MTV (Ambitious is good, right?)

So what's the deal if I just write the lyrics, or lyrics+music, or also sing the lead or a part of the song, or only do backups?

The band is pretty new, and has undergone some structural changes, heading for a new music direction etc.

We're talking about establishing ground rules, I'd just like to know what is considered *fair* so that everyone is pretty much content. (Me included.)

[Didier]

Hi andreya,

So what's the deal if I just write the lyrics, or lyrics+music, or also sing the lead or a part of the song, or only do backups?

One thing to (hopefully) clarify things a little:

Do not confuse you as a writer (this includes lyrics and music), with you as musician (which includes performing, not writing).

As a writer, the usual percentage is a 50% split between lyrics and music. If there's collaboration between different persons, for instance for the music, then the percentage of each is a negotiation.

As a writer, each time your song is performed (whether it is by you or not is no relevant), unless for free , you're supposed to earn royalties, the usual amount being around 10% of revenues (in Europe, as far as I know) for public performances.

Of course, for these royalties to exist, there must be an organisation collecting them on your behalf. That's the purpose of an Author's rights organisation.

Didier

[andreya]

Yeah, I've been looking into the local organisation's documents and some other things online.

Apparently you get a better bargaining position after you've gotten famous or so. And/or if you are a founding member.

I understand about the split. Just wasn't sure how it applied in this particular case. But I guess going indie is no different than going with a record company or something. Is that right?

So, if I understand correctly, through the organisation cca. 10% of revenues of a gig/CD-sale go to *all* songwriters, this is divided by number of songs, and then further according to music:lyrics. (Is it 33:33:33 if there's also arrangement separately?)

Maybe I'm a bit concerned with things like the number of CDs sold at concerts etc. This could be a muddy area if someone decided not to play fair, no?

Can there be a negative side to being a member of such an organisation? (Some restrictions are imposed on members that I'm not sure about...) Are you all members?

(These organisations are quite new in my country and I'm still a bit puzled with it all...)

Thank you for your answers!!

[Didier]

I understand about the split. Just wasn't sure how it applied in this particular case. But I guess going indie is no different than going with a record company or something. Is that right?

With regards to author's rights (if that's the question), it shouldn't make a difference.

So, if I understand correctly, through the organisation cca. 10% of revenues of a gig/CD-sale go to *all* songwriters, this is divided by number of songs, and then further according to music:lyrics.

For gigs, yes. I think it's 7% (for SACEM, French organisation) for CDs.

And you're right about *all* songwriters. My songs are worth the same as Bowie's (as far as gig repartition is concerned).

(Is it 33:33:33 if there's also arrangement separately?)

I can only give you the numbers for SACEM, but that should give you an idea.

The numbers are different for gigs and CDs.

For gigs, it's a statutory percentage:

Lyrics = 11/24

Writer = 11/24

Arranger = 2/24 .... which means around 8 %

For CDs, it is negotiated, which means it could be 99% for the arranger, and 1% for the composer.

It is usually closer to "half of the half", i.e., lyrics 50%, music 25, arrangement 25.

Maybe I'm a bit concerned with things like the number of CDs sold at concerts etc. This could be a muddy area if someone decided not to play fair, no?

The good thing for the writer, with CDs (in France, but that should apply in a lot of countries), is that the writer's fee are paid in advance during manufacturing. Which means the writer's share is not depending on sales.

Can there be a negative side to being a member of such an organisation? (Some restrictions are imposed on members that I'm not sure about...)

There might be negative sides.

For me, the biggest drawback is that, since I insist for filling a declaration when I do a gig, I am much disliked by organisers (because most of them try to *not* declare gigs).

The other drawback is that, theoretically, my organisation can ask money for anyone using my music, including OMDs where my music is available for free.

Another rule (which is not a big problem for me so far) is that *all* my songs are to be managed by my organisation. This means I cannot sell the rights to one of my songs.

But, anyway, you should read the rules very carefully before signing anything.

Are you all members?

I am, but I guess most of amateur musicians and writers are not.

Didier

[andreya]

My songs are worth the same as Bowie's (as far as gig repartition is concerned).

Wow!! I never thought of this that way!!

For gigs, it's a statutory percentage:

Lyrics = 11/24

Writer = 11/24

Arranger = 2/24 .... which means around 8 %

Do you mean from net profit or from what the organiser pays to the band?

The good thing for the writer, with CDs (in France, but that should apply in a lot of countries), is that the writer's fee are paid in advance during manufacturing. Which means the writer's share is not depending on sales.

Is that the case in a completely independent production too or just 'real' companies? (I suppose it depends if you fill in the form or not.)

For me, the biggest drawback is that, since I insist for filling a declaration when I do a gig, I am much disliked by organisers (because most of them try to *not* declare gigs).

Does this make it much harder to get gigs? Is it still worth it for you, financially? (and with regard to all the hassle?) Probably depends to how many songs get radio play etc.

Are you obliged to fill in forms for every gig?? (From what I read at our organisation's site, I'd say yes. Even charity concerts need a special form to be filled out.) Isn't that a bit, well, annoying?

What would happen if you just, well, didn't report? Do some people just do that and hope they're not found out? Could you - theoretically speaking - play other songs than those 'in safekeeping' with the organisation without mentioning it to them?

The other drawback is that, theoretically, my organisation can ask money for anyone using my music, including OMDs where my music is available for free.

Not sure what an OMD is - internet promotion site?

Another rule (which is not a big problem for me so far) is that *all* my songs are to be managed by my organisation. This means I cannot sell the rights to one of my songs.

I suppose you can terminate the agreement if you get a really big offer then-? Must read that section again.

There are 3 organisations collecting money from e.g. pubs etc. in our country. (And the pubs are currently in uproar.) One is ipf - publishers and performers mainly, one is 'authors and publishers', and I'm not quite sure what the last one is for.

But, anyway, you should read the rules very carefully before signing anything.

Yeah, I know!!

I am, but I guess most of amateur musicians and writers are not.

When would it become profitable to become a member? When a CD targeted at radio play is made?

If the composer/arranger is in the organisation, and reports a song to it, will the organisation give money to the lyricist too? (Do you have to be a member or will they collect money for you otherwise too?)

(I guess some more reading of the statute will be required...)

Thanks for the really helpful answers!! (& for bearing with me!!)

[Didier]

Do you mean from net profit or from what the organiser pays to the band?

Confused again?

What the organiser pays to the band has nothing to do with what the organiser pays to the author's rights organisation. Do you think a cover band would send the money back to Bowie?

In fact, it's the one who benefits from the music who is paying the authors: the organiser.

The band is only benefiting indirectly, not more than the electricity company or the drink provider.

Although, note we are speaking of *revenues*, not *profit*.

It means, even if there are no paying entries, but the organiser sold a lot of drink, he will have to pay something.

Is that the case in a completely independent production too or just 'real' companies? (I suppose it depends if you fill in the form or not.)

In France, if the CD contains at least one song written by someone member of an author's rights organisation, it is illegal not to fill the form (and most companies will refuse to press the CD). So it does not depend whether you're a company or not.

Does this make it much harder to get gigs? Is it still worth it for you, financially? (and with regard to all the hassle?) Probably depends to how many songs get radio play etc.

There's both sides to everything. Of course, if you do mostly covers (as a performing musician), you can think it isn't worth filling the form (but you are denying the author's their due).

If you are playing your own songs, you have to balance 10% of the revenues with what is paid to the band (but much later, about a year after), and the likeness that you won't play again if you fill the form.

Are you obliged to fill in forms for every gig?? (From what I read at our organisation's site, I'd say yes. Even charity concerts need a special form to be filled out.) Isn't that a bit, well, annoying?

The organiser is supposed to do it, more than you. The collecting organisation is not going to act against you, it's your organisation! I don't find it annoying to fill the form. A bit childish perhaps, but it's always a nice feeling to receive royalties. Not for the money (at least in my case, given the amounts!), but that makes you a *professional* writer.

What would happen if you just, well, didn't report?

Nothing for you. Just the fact that you will not earn anything.

Do some people just do that and hope they're not found out? Could you - theoretically speaking - play other songs than those 'in safekeeping' with the organisation without mentioning it to them?

Plenty of organisers try to not report. Some are caught, some not. The penalty (for SACEM) is 10%, as far as I know (which means a total of 20%).

If none of the songs you play (as an organiser) belong to an organisation, either you can report that, claiming you have nothing to pay, or you can declare nothing, and contest the bill if it arrives.

Not sure what an OMD is - internet promotion site?

Yes. Such as SoundLiftSoundLift (there are plenty of others). It means Online Music Distribution.

I suppose you can terminate the agreement if you get a really big offer then-? Must read that section again.

Not really simple to quit, but it can be done. But what offer can be more interesting than a lifetime of royalties?

When would it become profitable to become a member? When a CD targeted at radio play is made?

When you generate royalties. If you tour a lot, this can be quite profitable (sometimes more than what the organiser gives you as a band, because of the drinks, for instance). But you have to be careful about "admission" time (in some organisations, it can be up to one year).

If the composer/arranger is in the organisation, and reports a song to it, will the organisation give money to the lyricist too? (Do you have to be a member or will they collect money for you otherwise too?)

No, only members benefit (quite normal). In the case of SACEM, they will keep the money for some time (up to 3 years, I believe), just in case the lyricist becomes a member afterward. After that, the money goes to the "common pool", which in fact benefit the known artists.

Didier

[andreya]

Confused again?

Ooh, apparently!

What the organiser pays to the band has nothing to do with what the organiser pays to the author's rights organisation. Do you think a cover band would send the money back to Bowie?

Good point. So, cca. 10% of revenues gets distributed to all authors of songs. If 1 of 50 is from Bowie, he gets 1/50th of the revenues, via the site. Am I getting this right now?

Although, note we are speaking of *revenues*, not *profit*.

It means, even if there are no paying entries, but the organiser sold a lot of drink, he will have to pay something.

So even if they have an overall loss they have to pay? No wonder they don't like it.

There's both sides to everything. Of course, if you do mostly covers (as a performing musician), you can think it isn't worth filling the form (but you are denying the author's their due).

If you are playing your own songs, you have to balance 10% of the revenues with what is paid to the band (but much later, about a year after), and the likeness that you won't play again if you fill the form.

What do you mean, 'the likeness that you won't play again'?? OoOO How likely is that? If the band is good or you get a radio hit surely the tiny 10% won't matter-? But if the music is not very commercial or attracts few people to the venue initially it might be better to wait - ? (Is there a difference regarding this if you perform with the band or if they perform your songs alone? Probably not, for the organiser?)

What if you are not sure? I love the idea of %, but preventing a band from concerts doesn't sound fun either. Is there another way to at least formally protect the copyright initially?

If none of the songs you play (as an organiser) belong to an organisation, either you can report that, claiming you have nothing to pay, or you can declare nothing, and contest the bill if it arrives.

So it depends on the songs, not the people performing. Theoretically you could agree to play some songs that aren't 'on the list'. Okay...

When you generate royalties. If you tour a lot, this can be quite profitable (sometimes more than what the organiser gives you as a band, because of the drinks, for instance). But you have to be careful about "admission" time (in some organisations, it can be up to one year).

By 'tour' you mean 'perform'-? (The word conjures up images of European capitols or America.)

Do you mean admission into the organisation, or the time that passes before you receive the money?

Thank you so much!! It is all becoming much clearer! (slowly) Merci!

[Didier]

Good point. So, cca. 10% of revenues gets distributed to all authors of songs. If 1 of 50 is from Bowie, he gets 1/50th of the revenues, via the site. Am I getting this right now?

'Xactly

So even if they have an overall loss they have to pay? No wonder they don't like it.

It is a recurrent discussion.

One argument in favour of that:

"Sorry, Mr. Electricity company. It's true you provided electricity during all evening, but I made a loss. As a consequence, I will not pay you."

What do you mean, 'the likeness that you won't play again'?? OoOO How likely is that?

You'll have to find out in your local scene (asking other musicians, for instance). I'm afraid there's no general answer. Of course, the issue exists only (at least in Western Europe) for small "gigs". For national tours (see below), the organiser will always declare everything.

If the band is good or you get a radio hit surely the tiny 10% won't matter-? But if the music is not very commercial or attracts few people to the venue initially it might be better to wait - ?

(Is there a difference regarding this if you perform with the band or if they perform your songs alone? Probably not, for the organiser?)

No, no difference.

What if you are not sure? I love the idea of %, but preventing a band from concerts doesn't sound fun either. Is there another way to at least formally protect the copyright initially?

Common confusion here. An author's rights organisation is not there to protect copyright, but to obtain compensation for usage. Copyright protection is just a side effect. There are a lot of means to protect your copyright without using an author’s rights organisation (e.g., lawyers, specific organisations, etc.).

So it depends on the songs, not the people performing. Theoretically you could agree to play some songs that aren't 'on the list'.

Yes, but if you perform at least one "protected" song, it's the same as playing 10 (or even 100). The amount of money to pay is exactly the same for the organiser. The difference will be for the authors of each song (100% is much better than 1%).

By 'tour' you mean 'perform'-? (The word conjures up images of European capitols or America.)

Yes, but repetitively in different towns:

Tour: [Middle English, a turn, from Old French (influenced by tourner, to turn about), from Latin tornus, lathe.

To travel among various places while fulfilling engagements.

Do you mean admission into the organisation, or the time that passes before you receive the money?

I meant admission (from 6 month to a year). But time to receive money is usually longer: from one to two years for things happening in your country. From 3 years to never for things happening abroad.

Being an author is a long time investment.

Didier

[andreya]

Thanks!! You've been really helpful!!

My country is so small that one practically cannot talk of 'tours' as such, but 'promotional concerts' or the like. Unless you go across borders...

The thing is I've got a bunch of lyrics but haven't co-operated with a band before, so we'll see how it goes!! Keep fingers crossed!!

[Steve]

Good luck Andreya

[andreya]

Good luck Andreya

Thanks!! I was hoping for some examples of how the $$$ is/was distributed in bands you guys have played in!

I've heard of this system from a friend: half the money to whoever of the band members that got the gig, and the rest gets split among the band members (the band is doing covers).

The songwriter would have to be registered then to get money from the organization...

Any other examples/ideas?

Happy New Year everyone!!

Edited January 3, 2006 by andreya

[Steve]

Every band I have played in was an equal split between members. If you get one member being paid more, that can lead to resentment amongst the other members. (This is for playing gigs only) If you join an existing band , try to find out what the others are putting into the band. If one person is doing all the bookin, organising rehearsals, supplying transport to gigs etc, then they probably will want a bigger slice of the cake. If you intend to join as an equal member, chipping in with helping with all of the above, then you deserve an even cut!

Why not move to Torquay in England and we can form our own band. (But you'll need to buy me lots of beer...)