Open VS Closed back Headphones

[Topaz Bon]

Hi,

 

I have a pair of KRK KNS 8400 closed back headphones and an older, cheaper pair of open back Sennheiser headphones that are well past their sell-by-date. I've done some research and it seems, although not conclusive that closed back are for recording/editing and open for mixing/mastering. Does anyone have an opinion on this? Agree/disagree?

 

Also, I want to buy a new pair of open-back headphones, does anyone have any recommendations?

[john]

Hi

 

rather than type it all again, you might find this topic useful:

 

 

In in there I talk about monitors, closed back, open back and semi closed back cans, when to use and why, plus what the trade off are. The link there is to one specific post but I am on my Moby and so didn't copy the general topic link by mistake.

 

In general I would open back cans for mixing and production. The reasons are straight forward:

 

Closed backs are are only to reduce spill into microphones during recording. 

Closed backs color the sound, adjusting the tone

Using closed backs increases ear fatigue

 

Ideally you should use monitors as much as possible during mixing. Cans are very useful for setting up an accurate stereo image, but they do not give an accurate bass representation.

 

One other thing is to use a reference recording. One that you are familiar with and can use to judge the bias of any amp/monitor/can combination. It can also be useful to look up general impressions of other producers/engineers. For example, Yamaha NS10s are popular near-field studio monitors, but they have a high end bias, making tracks too hot at the high end. The result being that engineers pull back on the high end, resulting in a track that completely lacks a high end on any other system! Engineers used to try and tame it using tissue paper.... But I digress. Lol Great rock monitors as it happens and really good for highlighting poor quality in a track.

 

you get the idea.

 

 

I hope that helps.

[Topaz Bon]

Thanks, this confirms for me that open-back are best for mixing. I read your other article John, your comment on closed back "colouring the mix", helps me to understand why I need a decent pair of open back for mixing, as my closed back KRK's whilst good, just don't cut it for mixing in stereo. I made quite a shortlist of open back headphones from many brands, Sennheiser, Shure, Samson, AKG, Sony and ATH, and the Samson SR80 and AKG K240 are on that list. I'll head for the shops and see what they've got and try these first.  Also good point on the headphone amp, I need to get one of those too.

 

Thanks for all of your input, and luckily I don't have any dogs!!

[MonoStone]

On 23 April 2016 at 1:34 PM, HoboSage said:

http://ehomerecordingstudio.com/best-recording-studio-headphones/#openback

 

Open back, or at least semi-open back, is definitely the way to go for mixing.  Coincidentally, I also need a pair and have been looking online.  I'm going to pick me up a pair of the inexpensive Samson SR-850's rated highly in the above article.  They get good reviews on Amazon too. I'll never spend a lot of money again on headphones.  I, or my kids, or my dog will end up trashing them somehow eventually. .  Anyway, another thing to keep in mind as you look for a pair is the impedance rating for the drivers.  The more expensive ones tend to have higher impedance - higher resistance in ohms.  If you get a pair with a higher impedance rating you'll also need a headphone amp to get any volume out of them.  That was something that always bugged me when I had AKG K-240's - before my dog destroyed them.  Headphone amps are pretty inexpensive, but they will also add at least a little bit of coloration to the analog signal coming out of your interface.  Some of the more expensive ones might give you a choice of a higher or lower impedance rating for that model.  I would get the lower-rated one.  P.S.  I can't remember the brand or model, but in my search I came a across highly rated headphones that were constructed in such a way that the back of each can could be "dialed" to be fully open, fully closed, or set at various semi-open positions, making them a flexible enough to be adjusted to obtain the best results for both recording and for mixing in various environments as judged by different human ears.  There were also models that had detachable cords, so if your cord gets compromised you can just replace it, and other models that give you a choice of a straight cord or a coiled cord.  I hate coiled cords; they always end up getting messed up.

 

How are the Samson headphones working out David? My headphones broke today...so looking for new ones. Those Samson's sound like a good deal...

[john]

In that price bracket.... Nothing I have experience of, although you can get a nice set of beyerdynamic DT 990 Pros for about £150 (though up to £200). They are good open back cans. For closed back recording cans I still recommend DT 150s. You can get a set for about £110, but no good for mixing. Not sure of price but DT 880 pros are good semi closed cans.

 

the closest Sennheiser open backs I have experience of would be the HD 650, or HD 600s but both are about £230-250

 

AKG I have used, but not for so long or recently enough I could make a recommendation.

 

iirc beyer have a budget open set down about £40, but I have no experience of them.

[MonoStone]

18 hours ago, john said:

In that price bracket.... Nothing I have experience of, although you can get a nice set of beyerdynamic DT 990 Pros for about £150 (though up to £200). They are good open back cans. For closed back recording cans I still recommend DT 150s. You can get a set for about £110, but no good for mixing. Not sure of price but DT 880 pros are good semi closed cans.

 

the closest Sennheiser open backs I have experience of would be the HD 650, or HD 600s but both are about £230-250

 

AKG I have used, but not for so long or recently enough I could make a recommendation.

 

iirc beyer have a budget open set down about £40, but I have no experience of them.

Thanks John, I have tried the DT990s briefly as a mate has them, they're super comfy but not sure I thought the sound was that much better than my cheap AKGs (which just broke for no apparent reason and seem to be unfixable because of the way the wires are inside...I did try). Amazon reviews are full of people moaning the 990s broke easy too so... gonna try the Samson ones. I have closed back ones already, they're just terrible for mixing... 

[john]

No worries. Never mix with closed back cans... it's that bad lol

[Danidog]

My SR 850's just came in the mail, a definate improvement over my closed back Behringers and they cost less also.  Can't hate that...,. 

Thanks for this thread and suggestion.

[Mara Collens]

It may be too late for you to see this but I recommend you check out the Philips Fidelio X1. They are semi-open so they won't have the big glorious sound stage of fully open headphones but it'll be better than closed cans would. They are reviewed as having probably the best bass you can get in the price range.

I'm looking at getting them and from my research they seem like they'd be great for gaming.

[john]

22 hours ago, Mara Collens said:

It may be too late for you to see this but I recommend you check out the Philips Fidelio X1. They are semi-open so they won't have the big glorious sound stage of fully open headphones but it'll be better than closed cans would. They are reviewed as having probably the best bass you can get in the price range.

I'm looking at getting them and from my research they seem like they'd be great for gaming.

 

Without looking at the spec, great for gaming and great for mixing and or mastering are not the same thing. Ideally you want cans that don't color the sound. If for example your cans include some tech to artificially boost bass, say for games enjoyment, and then you mix... hearing a level of bass boost that will not be on other systems... that is a problem. If on the other hand it is simply a bass response giving something close to uncolored, simply enough to overcome headphone's naturally poor bass response because of speaker size... that would be ok. As long as you have gone into this and this is the rationale, that is ok.

 

Overcoming the differences in speaker systems is an interesting problem, one that takes a lot of copmparison on different systems and listening environments in comparison with your home studio set up. it pays to use reference recordings for comparison. In a studio that obvious first comparison is the difference between your cans and your monitors and near-field monitors. Most home studios will just have the latter.

 

Even pro monitors can be known to color the sound. For example, Yamaha NS-10 monitors are known to sound a bit trebly because the bass response isn't great. That can lead you to mix with too much bass, so when you put it on other systems instantly the bass is way louder than you thought you mixed it. Play it on a system with an in-built bass boost and it will soon be distorting at the low end. The opposite could be true with mixes on a bass-boosting system, where you might play your mix back on another system and wonder where the bass power has gone, and play it back on a system with poor bass response and the bass disappears entirely.

 

Whatever you do it is important to calibrate your listening environment and tailor it accordingly. In my case, when using NS10s I would know that the bass response would be weak so by boosting the bass on the amplifier until my reference recording sounded the same, I could get in the rough ball park, so that when I mixed it would be like I was using a color neutral set up. My mix would have the right level of bass on it when I went to another system... at least, based on a similar performance to the reference recording.

 

One other point to note, is that it is worth using a reference recording that will have a similar amount of sub-bass on it as you intend to have. Indeed, a reference recording that has the same overall spectral sound that you are aiming for.

 

Using neutral monitoring, or compensating in your mix for skewed monitors or cans, allows you to create an output mix that is in the ballpark of what you want. If you are home mastering it is vital that you also have a decent mastering software suite and knowing your monitoring system inside and out is vital. If you are not doing your own mastering, then delivering a relatively neutral recording gives the mastering engineer the maximum scope with your recording.

[Just1L]

1 hour ago, john said:

 

Without looking at the spec, great for gaming and great for mixing and or mastering are not the same thing. Ideally you want cans that don't color the sound. If for example your cans include some tech to artificially boost bass, say for games enjoyment, and then you mix... hearing a level of bass boost that will not be on other systems... that is a problem. If on the other hand it is simply a bass response giving something close to uncolored, simply enough to overcome headphone's naturally poor bass response because of speaker size... that would be ok. As long as you have gone into this and this is the rationale, that is ok.

 

Good point John. I have a question. I'm still far from being good at mixing and even further from knowing the real ins-and-outs of mixing and mastering. I just do it by ear. Which is great sometimes and I've gotten good mixes. But I have a question. Do the numbers lie, or can you count on them every time?

 

I'm going to use Photoshop to illustrate what I'm getting at. Many years ago we used to have problems with photos of people in our newspaper. A lot of our images of white people had a kind of blue tint to them that when on the page with other blue items really made them look more blue. We met with our printer and discussed this. Obviously we had too much Cyan in the mix and were given some percentages to look for when inspecting faces. 10% or lower was the rule so if we were worried about a photo being too blue, we would adjust the cyan until it the overall face was less than 10% cyan.

 

Now, taking this to music and mixing. Are there numbers like that for certain things that should be the go-to rule for certain instruments/sounds? I do know there isn't really a once size fits all, but are there ranges that whenever you go outside of them, sound quality suffers?

 

Gratzi,

Randy