Keeping it a mystery or spilling the beans

[Pahchisme Plaid]

I've noticed varying opinions when it comes to lyrics whether or not to elaborate with a backstory or whether to keep it vague for purposes of listeners identifying in their own vein.  I agree sometimes that vague is too vague and needs something to solid it up a bit, but often, I find myself agreeing with obscurity--personal taste.  I'm inconsistent--sometimes I like the obscurity and sometimes I think the support of detail is important for the flow of the song. I guess in order to identify the reasoning, I would need to revisit each individual song to explain why.  I'm not going to do that, but I hope to ask myself WHY I feel one way or another from now on when I make comments regarding that.  I don't know that I would even remember which songs I commented on in that manner.  

 

However, I did wonder...is it a personal taste thing or is there a method to deciding when a backstory is called for and when obscurity serves the song?

I even wonder, do the purposes of stability and instability factor into that?

[Pahchisme Plaid]

1 hour ago, tunesmithth said:

In my mind it's a question of which serves the specific lyric better. 

 

Case in point, "Taxi" by Harry Chapin wouldn't have worked nearly as well with a non-specific story-lyric.

Much of what you identify with is the result of his use of specific imagery. It paints a clear picture for the listener.

"Scenes From An Italian Restaurant" by Billy Joel is another great example of something that worked because it was specific. 

 

Tom

I listened to both of the examples you provided, Tom.  Absolutely, they started out very specific, very detailed.  I noticed that "Taxi" was reasonably stable, except in a few key places where I think he was building anticipation in the listener, but then he met that anticipation with a release/an answer.  I think possibly when you start out that specific, you need to be consistent--still not absolutely sure I want to conclude that just yet, but its something for me to watch to watch for to see if its an ALWAYS thing.  "Scenes from an Italian Restaurant" also uses slight instability in places to keep the listener engaged with what comes next, but I found those lyrics and the execution of the music a little more complex, due to internal rhymes, (his rhymes which are mostly stable), but found the lines difficult to figure without REALLY investigating.  I think they are closer to stable and the music has defined sections of change and drama--The execution of HOW those lyrics were executed vocally is potentially different than how it appears with the lines on the lyric sample provided (I used Youtube). So, a little further investigation on my part there as time allows. Now what would be ideal is if someone would give examples of good use of obscurity in a song for diagnostic purpose

 

[Pahchisme Plaid]

Thanks for the specific example, Tom!  It's completely different than the other two examples you provided above.  I guess this stamps out the stable/unstable theory.  The lines and rhymes are stable in this song also.  Its definitely obscure from

the get-go and leaves much to ponder on.  He addresses a particular person with experiences they shared together that they are both familiar with.  I think that it makes sense how it was set up that way and it leaves it to the listener to fill in the blanks.  It's sort of like overhearing a conversation intended for just two.  Obscurity is completely appropriate here due to the second person address.

 

[starise]

Not sure if this makes any sense to you. Sometimes the emotional aspect of the music moves me to such a degree that the words become secondary. More like complimentary. The music takes the lyric to a place that seems to make sense even if it doesn't make sense.

 

I'm kid of analytical , so while I'm attempting to analyze it, I'm also digging it at another level.

 

I also like to hear a good interesting story too. Because of the condensed way we are trained to listen to modern music , the details of the story usually need to come and go in 3-5 minutes. For someone who likes to write long poems this is a real challenge I think.

 

And then there's the long lyrics that still don't get you to a place of resolve.

[Ray888]

I have come across many writers that analise lyrics but I am not one of them. I'm not sure if that is an advantage or disadvantage but my personal view is that I prefer to trust my instinct rather than take a song apart like a jigsaw puzzle and then try to reassemble it in a different manner. I believe that the songs that exist inside us are already written. I do wonder whether any of the great writers of the past thought much about what they wrote. I've heard a lot about songwriters going to Nashville and taking masterclasses with successful songwriters and who study lyric writing like they are taking a physics degree. I have my own individual way of writing and have always been conscious that I don't want to write like anybody else. I wrote my first worldwide hit in 1970 at 21 years old when I was drunk on Brandy at the time. Not once did I give a single thought to what I was writing.

 

I would be interested to know if I am just an odd freak of nature or if there are others like myself who just write what they write and leave it.

[Ray888]

Glad to hear I am not the only freak in town.

 

I wonder if you are the only Hobo lol.

[Just1L]

1 hour ago, Ray888 said:

I have come across many writers that analise lyrics but I am not one of them. I'm not sure if that is an advantage or disadvantage but my personal view is that I prefer to trust my instinct rather than take a song apart like a jigsaw puzzle and then try to reassemble it in a different manner. I believe that the songs that exist inside us are already written. I do wonder whether any of the great writers of the past thought much about what they wrote. I've heard a lot about songwriters going to Nashville and taking masterclasses with successful songwriters and who study lyric writing like they are taking a physics degree. I have my own individual way of writing and have always been conscious that I don't want to write like anybody else. I wrote my first worldwide hit in 1970 at 21 years old when I was drunk on Brandy at the time. Not once did I give a single thought to what I was writing.

 

I would be interested to know if I am just an odd freak of nature or if there are others like myself who just write what they write and leave it.

 

I always go by instinct so label me a freak as well. While I do spend a good amount of time working on the lyrics, I only think about how I would like them to be. Heck, I get an idea, write what I want to say, and then work to mask it so it isn't straight forward. My lyrics are sometimes seen as a mess, and sometimes they are. But with just about any verse, chorus, etc.. I write, there is a definite meaning behind it as well as purpose. Lyrics are lyrics. Songs however are much, much more. I go by feeling. I want people to hear my songs while doing other things and just enjoy what they can of them. If they go and look up lyrics afterwards that's great, but if they like the song enough to do that, my goal was accomplished through other means than just the lyrics. But I will say I don't mind writing a story type of lyric, I just don't want to write all my songs that way.

 

So, what is this hit you speak of? Inquiring minds want to know.

 

Randy

 

 

[Pahchisme Plaid]

1 hour ago, Ray888 said:

I have come across many writers that analise lyrics but I am not one of them. I'm not sure if that is an advantage or disadvantage but my personal view is that I prefer to trust my instinct rather than take a song apart like a jigsaw puzzle and then try to reassemble it in a different manner. I believe that the songs that exist inside us are already written. I do wonder whether any of the great writers of the past thought much about what they wrote. I've heard a lot about songwriters going to Nashville and taking masterclasses with successful songwriters and who study lyric writing like they are taking a physics degree. I have my own individual way of writing and have always been conscious that I don't want to write like anybody else. I wrote my first worldwide hit in 1970 at 21 years old when I was drunk on Brandy at the time. Not once did I give a single thought to what I was writing.

 

I would be interested to know if I am just an odd freak of nature or if there are others like myself who just write what they write and leave it.

I do a lot on instinct, too and I haven't any of those classes you speak of, but I know others who do.  I learn best by doing, but I also try to listen to those who are more experienced than me in hopes to improve on this gift.  What triggered this posting was that I hear differing opinions of the same song (sometimes I agree and sometimes I disagree going by instinct) from feedback and wondered if there was a particular measure to determine when is best to spill the beans or leave it for the listener to interpret or if I should just chalk it up to personal taste/opinion.

[Pahchisme Plaid]

1 hour ago, HoboSage said:

 

I guess I'm a freak too then.  Stable or unstable?  That's never I question I ponder.  Cool or not cool?  Works well with the vibe of the music, with the rest of the lyric and with how I want to sing the vocal melody - or not?  These are my primary considerations when coming up with words to a song.  But then again, I always first have music to sing words to, and I never bother to write "a story."

 

 

If I were a musician more than a lyricist, I might do as you do, HoboSage, but I like words, ideas, and saying something effective.  I love music, but as expressed in other posts, I wasn't brought up learning it and its a new experience for me.  Don't take this as dismissing the music aspect of it at all.  I am quite aware that the music can make or break the best of lyrics.  I know through collaborating that the music can change the whole intent behind the lyrics and give it a completely different feel than what the writer intended, but I also know that music can breathe greater life and depth of emotion into the words and vice versa.  I focus on the lyrical end because that's where my strength lies and my hope is to link up with musicians that find synergy with my lyrics to best express them together.

[starise]

15 minutes ago, Pahchisme Plaid said:

 What triggered this posting was that I hear differing opinions of the same song (sometimes I agree and sometimes I disagree going by instinct) from feedback and wondered if there was a particular measure to determine when is best to spill the beans or leave it for the listener to interpret or if I should just chalk it up to personal taste/opinion.

 

In my opinion this is up to you.

 

 

[Ray888]

1 hour ago, Just1L said:

 

I always go by instinct so label me a freak as well. While I do spend a good amount of time working on the lyrics, I only think about how I would like them to be. Heck, I get an idea, write what I want to say, and then work to mask it so it isn't straight forward. My lyrics are sometimes seen as a mess, and sometimes they are. But with just about any verse, chorus, etc.. I write, there is a definite meaning behind it as well as purpose. Lyrics are lyrics. Songs however are much, much more. I go by feeling. I want people to hear my songs while doing other things and just enjoy what they can of them. If they go and look up lyrics afterwards that's great, but if they like the song enough to do that, my goal was accomplished through other means than just the lyrics. But I will say I don't mind writing a story type of lyric, I just don't want to write all my songs that way.

 

So, what is this hit you speak of? Inquiring minds want to know.

 

Randy

 

 

It's quite ironic really, I wrote it with a musician when we were both pissed on Brandy. I forgot all about it until he asked me to sell my lyric to him. I received the grand sum of £65 for it. It was a fair sum of money in 1970. I won't mention the title of the song because it doesn't belong to me. All I can say is that there is a clue within what I have written. Only a few of my co-writers know what the title of the song is. Who loves a puzzle to solve? 

[Just1L]

12 minutes ago, Ray888 said:

 Who loves a puzzle to solve? 

 

Is there a Brandy - Mandy correlation??

[Ray888]

21 minutes ago, starise said:

 

In my opinion this is up to you.

 

 

Now that did make me laugh a hell of a lot. 

 

From my experience there are as many opinions in this world as their are people. Everyone has an opinion and those opinions can so often be wrong. (I include myself in that statement) I watched my boss back in the early 1980s turn down a future major artist for a record deal and telling me that she would never make it. She got a deal with a small label shortly after and he's been kicking himself ever since. Even the so called experts get it wrong sometimes so at the end of the day you have to make a final decision yourself and live with the consequences. 

[Ray888]

3 minutes ago, Just1L said:

 

Is there a Brandy - Mandy correlation??

I have a neighbour named Mandy if that helps.

[Just1L]

7 minutes ago, Ray888 said:

I have a neighbour named Mandy if that helps.

 

Of course it doesn't! OR does it?!?!? Hey, wait a minute … I thought you said puzzles weren't your thing.

[Ray888]

53 minutes ago, Just1L said:

 

Of course it doesn't! OR does it?!?!? Hey, wait a minute … I thought you said puzzles weren't your thing.

I just listen to your songs on Soundcloud and see that you are into heavy rock. I'm puzzled lol.

 

I see that you are a singer/songwriter who records your own demo's so I am wondering what you intend to do with them? 

 

In my experience bands are the hardest to place songs with because they usually write their own material. I have placed songs with a few known bands in the distant past but not for a long time now. If you are looking to place them it might be easier to look for a newly formed band that has management and is looking for material.

 

Maybe I'm on the wrong track because you may intend to start your own band. It's now your turn to keep me puzzled lol. 

[Just1L]

42 minutes ago, Ray888 said:

I am wondering what you intend to do with them? 

 

I'd say my plans sit somewhere between nothing and anything. I never intend to pitch them to bands to play. If anybody heard one and wanted it, I'd be fine with it.

 

Mainly:

- I figured out I could record songs on my computer so I started doing it.

- I wanted to just do a CD of songs for fun.

- Then I wanted to get the CD made and use it to pitch to the local Indie Radio Station to see if they would play any of my tunes.

- I kinda suck at mixing and have never really been happy enough with my mixes to make my own CD.

- I don't have the cash to get my songs mastered, CD printed, etc...

- It seems one may or may not need a CD at all anymore these days.

- So I just do nothing really and write a new song when I have time to do it.

- The latest plan is to put some of my songs on iTunes and keep saving money to do an actual Vinyl Album, just cuz it'd be cool and there is at least an audience that may be looking for ANYTHING new on vinyl. Still with the thought of sending something to the local indie radio station.

 

The dream goal would be to keep putting out songs and just make enough money to live my life how I do now. I thought of putting together a band but I enjoy spending time with my kids, 10 and 14, and don't really have plans to go out touring and whatnot. 

 

Oh, I forgot I had a plan I thought was good that fell by the wayside. Here In St. Louis there are quite a few School Of Rock places where kids learn how to play rock music. I thought that could be a good avenue to pitch my songs to a new upcoming band. But, since I never really intended to go that route, I never looked further.

 

So to recap - I find any excuse I can not to move forward.  

[Ray888]

22 minutes ago, Just1L said:

 

I'd say my plans sit somewhere between nothing and anything. I never intend to pitch them to bands to play. If anybody heard one and wanted it, I'd be fine with it.

 

Mainly:

- I figured out I could record songs on my computer so I started doing it.

- I wanted to just do a CD of songs for fun.

- Then I wanted to get the CD made and use it to pitch to the local Indie Radio Station to see if they would play any of my tunes.

- I kinda suck at mixing and have never really been happy enough with my mixes to make my own CD.

- I don't have the cash to get my songs mastered, CD printed, etc...

- It seems one may or may not need a CD at all anymore these days.

- So I just do nothing really and write a new song when I have time to do it.

- The latest plan is to put some of my songs on iTunes and keep saving money to do an actual Vinyl Album, just cuz it'd be cool and there is at least an audience that may be looking for ANYTHING new on vinyl. Still with the thought of sending something to the local indie radio station.

 

The dream goal would be to keep putting out songs and just make enough money to live my life how I do now. I thought of putting together a band but I enjoy spending time with my kids, 10 and 14, and don't really have plans to go out touring and whatnot. 

 

Oh, I forgot I had a plan I thought was good that fell by the wayside. Here In St. Louis there are quite a few School Of Rock places where kids learn how to play rock music. I thought that could be a good avenue to pitch my songs to a new upcoming band. But, since I never really intended to go that route, I never looked further.

 

So to recap - I find any excuse I can not to move forward.  

Ahhhhh I understand now. I think that whatever one is doing, Family, kids always have to come first so my respect for that.

If you ever get the urge to brake the mould of holding yourself back I can always give you some good advice. You are correct in thinking that CDs are a dying format and that the vast majority of material now is via streaming and downloads. I sometimes use a mastering engineer who only charges me £39 per song. He has mastered for bands like the rolling stones, U2, and artists like Katy Perry and Nicole Scherzinger just to name a few, so it is not out of the reach of those musicians who are strapped for cash. If you don't have the best set-up for mixing or don't feel that you are not skilled enough to mix, I would suggest that you ask for assistance in that area, You will find that there are people out there who if they like your songs, will mix them for a credit.

 

From what I have witnessed over many years the main thing that holds musicians back is their unwillingness to ask for help. I have never been shy in that particular area because I've never feared NO as an answer.

[Just1L]

1 hour ago, Ray888 said:

From what I have witnessed over many years the main thing that holds musicians back is their unwillingness to ask for help. 

 

To some degree that is correct but if I'm spilling the beans, it's the thought of not being around my family that ends it for me. In 10 years I won't be able to play with my kids, but I could still do music then. I think the only problem I have where I need help, and haven't asked, is which songs people think I should master. Say I do 5 out of the 20+ I have to start, I can never decide which 5 aside from 2 or 3. Guess I will ask though at some point. Thanks for the advice offer. I may take you up on it one day.

 

 

[Ray888]

51 minutes ago, Just1L said:

 

To some degree that is correct but if I'm spilling the beans, it's the thought of not being around my family that ends it for me. In 10 years I won't be able to play with my kids, but I could still do music then. I think the only problem I have where I need help, and haven't asked, is which songs people think I should master. Say I do 5 out of the 20+ I have to start, I can never decide which 5 aside from 2 or 3. Guess I will ask though at some point. Thanks for the advice offer. I may take you up on it one day.

 

 

Yes, kids grow up very fast, my eldest is 46 and I don't know where that time has gone. 

 

I can tell you that it is only worth getting your songs mastered if you have good mixes, otherwise it's a waste of money. There's only so much a mastering engineer can do.