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MonoStone
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Posts posted by MonoStone
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Just now, fasstrack said:
WHEN did I say ANYONE can't teach themselves? Show me chapter and verse---and please don't misquote me. \\
What I DID say to the guy: (paraphrasing) of course, those things are helpful (youtube, etc.). I went on to say I strongly advocate self-education---did I not? I merely gave my own experience---and the guy, you or anyone else can take what I say or leave it---that formal and private study helped ME!!
Period.
'Maaaa, he's changing the channels and hitting me in the shoulder again. Make him STOOOOOPPP!!"
You started it!
Muuuum! He started it!
Well actually you did pick out my post and you did disagree with it.
Full stop.
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1 minute ago, fasstrack said:
NOBODY has the right to put down anyone's music. You can say 'it's not my cup of tea'---but only after you've adequetely sampled the tea
Ummmm I didn't put anybody's music down.
And my opinion is very informed within the type of music I'm talking about. And I tried to make clear in my answer to the OP that I was talking about rock/pop.
One of us got the wrong end of the stick but my comment was firstly to the OP not you, but you chose to disagree with me, so I disagreed back.
I like all sorts of tea....including some very exotic varieties.
It's just true...you can't escape it... you don't need lessons which can't be learned from home , and especially don't need expensive courses, to be able to compose rock/pop music... you just don't. You might improve from GOOD lessons, but the question was 'can I train myself to compose at home' and the answer is 'yes you can', that's just a fact which cannot be disputed. It's a given that 'by myself' doesn't mean 'in a bubble without ever listening to anybody else', just in case this gets pedantic
It's just a fact that many of the most successful people in rock/pop learned to write songs without having to go to 'songwriting school'. Therefore it can be done, has been done, many, many, many, many times. To dispute that is just pointless.
The reason I bother to come back at you is - To tell young people who are new to composing songs that they CAN'T teach themselves, isn't just wrong, it's also discouraging, and also potentially pushes people towards wasting either their time in education or their money.
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14 minutes ago, fasstrack said:
Also, and seriously now. you gave your opinion---peachy keen by me, agree or disagree. So the follow-up about the people who agree is ancillary. I'm talking to you, not them. Know what I mean?
Hey I've not listened to your stuff but, I gather you're a proper talented musician who's been around, I'm not going to get into an argument.
But I am right
. Stating that other's have had huge success without formal training in pop/rock serves two purposes -
1. It shows it is possible and has been done many times, and therefore in those, and related, genres my answer is simply factually true.
2. It could potentially save someone a literal FORTUNE, and I am very anti the extremely pricey courses that are available especially in the USA, as they leave the majority in debt having being sold a very over-priced dream. And that's the main reason I chipped in.
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Just now, fasstrack said:
Ok. Like, whatever, dude (;
haha.... I use the word 'rock' broadly... I'm not a ROCKER really... but ... nice one
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2 hours ago, fasstrack said:
I have to respectfully disagree here
Well... I respectfully disagree too, especially since the question was can I learn to compose at home.
The rock and pop hall of fame is full of people who were not formally trained...learned at home... or in the garage.
To be a Jazz musician, well maybe that's different. But whilst you may have much experience in that, trust me I have plenty in rock/indie music. And I know that a whole load of super rich successful rock/indie stars agree with me
just in case my opinion isn't good enough.
If you want to be in a rock band.... just go for it... Pat Pattison or whatever he's called and that mob will kill at least two thirds of your soul
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When I saw the topic title I was expecting somebody's reflection in a spoon.
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Refrain is a repeated bit that sticks in your head, a line or even just a word (I think), so I think a refrain can, for example, be a just a short bit on the end of a verse or whatever. I think a refrain needs words (or a word... or something vocal at least). The bit we usually call the hook.
Chorus is a separately defined part where the melody changes, the chords might change too, and usually there's some shift in the arrangement, and normally a chorus lifts things in terms of the music and arrangement, although I don't think it has to lift in order to be called a chorus. The chorus is usually the release if there's tension in the verses, and usually has a hooky repeated (or repeatable) melody.... so maybe that's why some people sometimes call the chorus the refrain.
Hmmm not sure I explained well... the short answer is -
You should be able to tell when the song's changed to the chorus, it feels like a chorus! Whereas a refrain is just the repeated main hook.
Some people use the terms to mean the same thing... I don't think they are quite the same thing but... maybe ... and ... I don't care really.
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I have the BX5's too. They're pretty good.... but lately I'm using headphones more because.... my room isn't treated so I think the headphones work better. The monitors are my 2nd check rather than the other way round.
If you have a treated studio then go for it and get the best monitors you can.... but if like me you're just in an untreated room then I reckon it's a waste of money.
Btw I'm using Samson SR850 headphones for mixing (after a tip from Hobosage a while back). They're super cheap and extremely good.... I ditched my AKGs. I guess there are probably better headphones if you spend a fortune but these are way better than their price and better than AKGs that are 3 or 4 times the price.
The one reason I might get more monitors is that the bass isn't great on the BX5's and it would be fun (and useful to some) to listen louder on bigger monitors with better bass too sometimes. But I think that would mean bigger as I say, and that's just too much to spend for my needs.
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You do not need music classes.
You don't need music classes to learn how to play and compose - Just think how many of the great artists/bands taught themselves. And you can learn from them too. And from some of us if you like.
You don't need music classes to learn how to mix or use a DAW - Many of us here haven't taken classes.
Anyone who says that you HAVE to take a class, is clueless.
Taking classes might speed up your learning IF it's a good class MAYBE.... but it's not essential and, in my opinion, some courses are likely a waste of money.
What you need is the desire to do it... you need to enjoy practicing and trying things until you get it right.... and yes YouTube and THIS site are full of really helpful tips and people to guide you.
Oh and... you need a certain amount of natural musical ability in my opinion....not much but enough that you have some natural timing and ability to hear when something sounds heavily out of tune etc
If you can play a few chords on an instrument and sing a bit then just start writing! Just go for it.
Oh but.... I'm not talking about composing classical music. I have no knowledge of that and I'd imagine that might require some teaching, although I'd bet you can still find guidance online for that too. You weren't very specific so I've assumed you mean writing AND playing your own stuff rather than composing for a real orchestra!
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Paranoid Android - Radiohead ..... And that's a damn good name association even if I say so myself!!
And I forgot....what an incredible song (and performance) that is!
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I do the music, before the lyrics, I focus on the melody and flow of the vocals before writing proper words ... so I just sing nonsense to get the melody and flow...then I write words to fit that, sometimes keeping some (or sometimes a lot) of what seemed like nonsense 'words' that I'd babbled out, as sometimes a few tweaks is enough to make it work. Sometimes I totally rewrite the jammed words if I want to say something else or if I didn't find anything worth keeping from that 'jam'.
I do that partly because it's what comes naturally but also because the flow and melody is just as, if not more than, important as the words. It depends what kind of music you're making too I suppose to some extent, but whatever type of song...if the words don't flow and the melody isn't good then even the very best poetry is worthless as a lyric.
I guess some people can write words first and then make the music to fit but the result has to be the same in terms of the best melody and flow possible. And if you write all the words first then I think you have to think further ahead and actually build in some dynamics and think about how things will flow....rather than just writing a poem.
Getting dynamics into the vocals is more natural for me working my way too. So when I jam out some vocal nonsense I'll just go with the flow and pick things up with more pace and power or soften things down or leave more space where it feels right. I think maybe that's harder if you write the words separate to the music because then you're constrained by the number of syllables, whereas if you're just jamming it then you find that some parts will pick up the pace (more syllables) or slow it down (less) or leave more space etc...depending on the feel of it all.
So if you 'mess around with lyrics' in a similar way to me, then I don't see why that would cause you a problem...apart from the typical issues most of us face like running out of ideas or just not feeling inspired etc sometimes. But if you tend to work on the words separate to the music, even if the words aren't written 'first' as such, then maybe try doing it the way I do... see if it works for you... I guess it has to feel right for you personally, as writing songs (in my opinion) works best when you honestly feel it.
As for the construction/arrangement/dynamic to keep it all interesting and not on one level... I think that's the easy bit IF you enjoy it. Especially with a DAW it's just easy to experiment with dropping instruments out or bringing new instruments in, and creating intros and so on... so I enjoy that part. IF I think I've got a really good song then I'm excited to arrange it, or sometimes if I think I've got a slightly dull song then I know I can get some life into it with the arrangement. You obviously understand the need for the interesting arrangement/construction (or you wouldn't notice when you didn't have it
) so the only thing holding you back there must be the desire to work on that aspect??
That's how I do stuff anyway... but it's whatever works for you isn't it.
And all that said... I do still sometimes find that I've come up with a song that is going nowhere, but I don't put that down to my approach at all...it's just that some songs just don't work out. Sometimes the chord progressions or lack of inspiration or motivation or ...something lacking... just make a 'plain', or rather boring, song. I think that must apply to all song writers/artists. And sometimes I also come up with something a bit crap, plain, whatever...and once that's stuck in my head it can be hard to get away from it... and so if I feel like I've done that (which sometimes takes me time to realise) then I put the song either on the shelf to try again later, or in the trash.
Hope that's some use to you as an answer anyway.
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My 2018? It's a bit early to know... I mean I'm 6 days in!
All the best to all of you for this year though!
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3 hours ago, HoboSage said:
Happy New Year, Tim and Rudi. Musically, right now, I'm going back and forth between the distraction of working on a new tune and constructing https://www.hobosage.com/
Eh...? Your site's totally changed since I last looked. It was coming on nicely before!
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28 minutes ago, john said:
Very true. Then again, he was dressed as an unusual space alien / futuristic space man. Lol Unusual / unexpected hooks are often novelty... that’s what makes it novel.
Think Kate Bush’s dancing. It was novel, was a visual hook, but credible to many people. Her general accrued credibility saw her using unusual hooks often and them not being in the novelty market... for most.
However for people who didn’t get Kate Bush, they were novelty, attention grabbing gimmicks.
Personally I think she is awesome, though I have cringed a little at times lol Well more shaken my head for a second and thought “That’s just Kate” and carried on, got passed whatever the thought was... yet, that WAS a large part of the hook. It was a reaction to the unusualness of the hook.
For me, the guy’s spaceman hook started more novelty, but after multiple listening it became normalised. No doubt for his fans it becomes “That’s just him”.
That is the nature and mechanism of such hooks.
some get passed it and the hook works, they accept or embrace the novelty. For others it will forever be a laughable, attention grabbing, “look at me” gimmick.
I think Kate Bush is mostly amazing but... it's song-dependent.... for example -
If that one had been her first single then I think she'd have been rightly dismissed as a very annoying, cheesy, expressive dance student with terrible cheesy lyrics (and I LOVE old Hammer films). Without an AWESOME song to back it up, it's just irritating and crap, so my view is that 'novelty' element doesn't add...it only serves to get attention (not that she did it for that reason necessarily) whether the attention be for good or bad.
What I'm saying is... I 'put up with' her weird dancing and sometimes it was really effective, but when she sang the right songs, she was just as, if not more, impressive and addictive when just sat at the piano. The 'novelty' elements were less important, and at times a risk to credibility (and enjoy-ability).I do like 'theatrical' in music (probably why I USED to enjoy Metal performances in my teens)... I liked the morbid looking string section in 'that weird bloke's' song, and his space suit in the other song, and smiley-to-the-point-of-menacing demeanor generally (I think his style is visually more impressive than Kate's in fact) .... but.... doing that thing with his tongue could never be good, could never be 'cool', in my book, and since that's an audible rather than purely visual 'novelty' (although seeing it makes it worse) it spoiled the song...for ME.... so I would have pointed that out.
But... we're all different.
Opinions expressed are my own -
Just now, john said:
@MonoStone Maybe, subjectively, though it provides an unusual, memorable hook for the song. Not what I would have done either, but I have no doubt it hooked people in as much as it drove others away.
Yep the same thought occurred to me too. It made it memorable but... also made it 'novelty'. I mean if he'd farted the chorus (which would no doubt still have been perfectly in tune) then that would be memorable and 'hooky' too but...
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14 minutes ago, john said:
Same singer for you Dek
Yeah I found that one too... and I liked it a lot until....he started doing that weird thing with his tongue...that totally wrecked it. If he'd posted in the Critique section here first then I'd have told him so, and then it would have been a better song/performance
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Don't know how I found this on YouTube but I love it.. so I'm listening to it...
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Highway To Hell - AC/DC covered by Wing. Even better than the original.
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Time - Bowie
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Bless The Weather - John Martyn
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I rarely listen to old oldies these days, but as a young child, with only my parent's records to listen to since I couldn't get my own... as a progression from Pinky and Perky, I'd sit and listen to these songs on repeat, in huge headphones, for hours on my own whilst my mum cleaned the house or whatever... and so my opinion of these songs is maybe inflated but they made me love music and I still love them...and they all sound very kind of spooky to me...kind of dream-like and dark!!!
(Which reminds me... A few years later when we moved house I lived next door to the singer who replaced Peter Noone. He'd do 'gigs' in the back garden for friends and neighbours. )
And so those are some of my favourite oldies. My parents didn't have any Beatles or Stones, nothing tooooo wild
although my mum had some great Disco collections which I also listened to endlessly, but I won't post those as I don't think they qualify as 'oldies' yet....
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7 minutes ago, Richard Tracey said:
a bit like the punks
I dunno, the Sex Pistols lead it...and they played fantastic in studio (since Sid didn't play). Steve Jones was a superb guitarist and Paul Cook was totally solid. Sometimes I wonder if good 'punk' ever existed, or even what 'punk' was, the good ones were just doing rock n roll with attitude and could actually play. All the really tuneless trying-to-be-punk-just-making-a-noise punk was just crap, as crap as Sid Vicious was, and I'm not sure any of that sort ever got better.
10 minutes ago, Richard Tracey said:EDM was fine for a certain segment of the musical population and I don’t think it did kill indie
It did in Manchester for quite a while. I was in the middle of all that. Aciiiiid really screwed things up, guitar indie bands struggled unless they added some house/dance to the sound. It didn't die forever but... for a while it was buried
... hehe I also just kind of liked throwing 'I hate Depeche Mode' into an Electronic Music Club.... SORRY!
(I really didn't/don't like it though... It was the lack of mood and attitude in it. I loved what Gary Numan and a few others were doing in the charts... moodier, more dramatic stuff.
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Since Numan was mentioned... this interview is a good, different, listen...
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I was going to ramble about not liking the tag 'electronic music' but changed my mind
Stuff I don't like about electronic music -
- The SOUND of early Depeche Mode (great songwriting.... friggin horrible sound/vibe, and the same applies to many, but not all, 80s synth pop bands)
- That EDM killed Indie for aaaaaaaaaaaaaages in the 90s.Stuff I do like about electronic music -
- Using synths to help make songs sound bigger or more atmospheric
- Blending synth sound with 'real' sounds
- The Knife
I think that covers it
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Who's Online 1 Member, 1 Anonymous, 91 Guests (See full list)
Can I learn and train myself how to compose at home?
in Songwriting
Posted
The OP isn't paying any attention anyway.
And... can someone open the Pit again please.